Date   

Re: Update on Vinnie- Post Hospitalization for Hypertriglyceridemia

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Hi all, with Vinnies insulin increasing my vet and I decided to add back Invokana at 1/8 of his previous dose and monitor. We don't want to risk another acute laminitis or any more damage to the laminae. 

Will update with results when I have them.

Thx Nancy 
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Re: Recent bloodwork concerns

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Ps.

If you redo rads, be sure to mark his hooves up as detailed here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/Getting-Good-X-rays

I also recommend taking a set of hoof photos to go with the rads, as detailed here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/Hoof-Related-Photo-Instructions

You might find the thrush battle is less of an issue when you get the diet balanced and low sugar.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Re: Vermont Blend

Nancy C
 

Hi Sandy

Way back in time when I bought the wrong kind of Vit E caps (not in oil) I asked if I needed to cut open the caps when I mixed with a table spoon of olive oil, I was told, yes, I should, because the  vitamin E needs to not get lost or separated from the oil in the vast acidic ocean of the hoses stomach.

Here is another response from Dr Kellon that is similar in a good thread about flax and E.

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/topic/71821886#247599

I would add extra oil.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2020-2021
Join us at the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference, August 13-15, ECIR Virtual Conference Room


Re: Recent bloodwork concerns

Kirsten Rasmussen
 
Edited

Hi Jennifer,

I agree with Sherry that action on the diet and increasing pergolide is pretty important right now.  You need to get the insulin down.  Lowering ACTH with more pergolide should help because it is one cause of elevated cortisol, which in turn causes insulin resistance.  His ACTH is very high, and while it appears in some horses that not all the ACTH is biologically 'active', the high insulin is a warning sign that either the PPID needs better control, or the diet needs adjustments, or both.

You note that he has a richer and a poorer quality hay, but having these hays tested for sugar (ESC) and starch is still important because a poor quality hay can still have high sugar.  With insulin that high, I would be soaking his hay and definitely not allowing any pasture.  Acute laminitis can occur in equines once insulin is over ~80 uIU/ml although some horses have higher insulin but do not get acute laminitis.  While he may not have active laminitis, his insulin and hoof sensitivity on certain surfaces is a sign that ongoing sub-clinical laminitis is resulting in poorly connected hoof growth.  According to Dr Bowker, small elevations in insulin still damage the laminae even when the horse does not appear to have laminitis. 

While you are testing your hay for sugar and starch, I would go all out and get a mineral profile done.  We recommend Equi-Analytical's 603 "Trainer" package:  
https://equi-analytical.com/feed-and-forage-analysis/analytical-service-packages/
With that information, you will be able to better supplement Firestorm's diet to ensure he is getting what he needs to improve insulin sensitivity and his immune system (both are compromised with PPID) and grow healthier well-connected hooves.  If you are worried about iron overload, mineral balancing becomes even more important because the best way to reduce iron absorption (next to minimizing it in food and water) is to ensure the horse is getting adequate zinc, which depends in turn on how much iron they are consuming in their hay (and supplements).

If he is sound, definitely increasing exercise is helpful (regular work every 1-2 days), but the other changes still need yo be made.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Re: DEIRDRE AND SMOKEY

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Deidre,

Welcome to the group. I found your case history folder but it is empty, with no actual case history form uploaded into it. Here is the link to the folder itself:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Deirdre%20and%20Smokey

This needs to be added to your signature, so we can easily find your information going forward.

If you have already filled out a case history form, it will be need to be added to this folder.

What follows is a rather long Official Welcome note, which contains a ton of information as well as links to more specifics. Take your time and have a read while sipping your favorite beverage. It should answer many of your initial questions as well as lead to your having more questions - no problem. Ask away so we can help you with any problems Smokey may be having.


The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck.

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or EMS/IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while EMS/IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose.

The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating".

In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: EMS is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an EMS/IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine. If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the EMS/IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for EMS/IR individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to EMS/IR equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you.


--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


locked Re: Equi-analytical 604 analysis on Timothy Balanced Cubes and Amino Trace +

Nancy C
 
Edited

Hi Sandra

Please allow me to explore what is in the analysis you sent.

First let me review: Grab samples from one bag are not accurate.  That is why we don’t test only one bale of hay. In addition, serum iron does not diagnose iron overload. You need serum iron +TIBC +Ferritin.  These points may have gotten lost in the flurry of emails.

But let’s use your numbers based on your E-A tests for your McKinney Farm hay and for the recommended 200 gram serving of Amino Trace+.

I am looking at trace minerals only for 20 pounds of hay per day.  I know you feed less than this but other details are not clear to me.  This is a recommendation that ECIR Balancers would likely make for most horses -- 20 pounds for a 1000 pound horse.

Iron (Fe)
20 pounds of hay = 840 mg
200 grams of amino trace = 415 mg iron ~ 2250 ppm.943 mg/lb

Total 1255 mg iron per day

Copper (Cu)
20 pounds of hay = 40 mg per day
200 grams of amino trace = 332 mg copper ~ 1660 ppm/755 mg/pd

Total 372 mg Copper per day

Zinc (Zn)
20 pounds of hay = 160 mg per day
200 grams of amino trace = 864 mg per day zinc  ~ 4330 ppm; 1962 mg/lb

Total 1024 mg Zinc per day

Manganese (Mn)
20 pounds of hay = 320 mg per day
200 grams of amino trace = 186 mg per day manganese  ~ 935 ppm; 423 mg/lb

Total 506 mg Manganese per day

Fe;Cu;Zn;Mn
1255;372;1024;506

Ratios 3.8;1;2.75;1.3

While the pelleted version of Amino Trace+ adds more iron, overall the above is not an unusual scenario.  And the iron, copper and zinc are pretty well balanced. I can’t comment on the Manganese because I don’t have enough info about your horse.

We don’t have a case history from you. You’ve heard that before. Respectfully, your Case History is critical to getting the best input from this group and your way of saying thank-you for getting free attention to detail.

So…. while I am not comfortable doing any more specifics for you without more info about your horse(s), I will offer these other points.

Iron is inherent in some minerals. Some of the iron in the AT+ is from mag oxide. Oat hulls probably have iron. I don’t see anything else that might add iron, but there could be. Need our chemist members to chime in.

Glad to see Mad Barn is using monosodium phosphate which is what Dr Kellon recommends.

Processed feeds and pelleted mineral supplements will inherently test with higher iron. IMO, that is the price of convenience.  Until we see otherwise, I am following Dr. Kellon’s advice, and she believes this excess cannot be ignored.

Want less dietary iron intake? Go to your hay as the foundation of your diet. Drop the fiber max, lower the flax to only two to four ounces by weight. Lower the ODTB Cubes.

You can go even further by putting together your own supplement mix.  Skip the convenience of pelleted supplements.

Mix the supplements yourself using magnesium carbonate (less iron) and r/s/r beet pulp (generally 225 ppm) as carrier.

Can you lower dietary intake? Will take changing management, but you have options you can take.

--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2020-2021
Join us at the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference, August 13-15, ECIR Virtual Conference Room


Re: Case History & Photo Album uploaded

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Carrie,

Lillie is beautiful.

If you're only feeding 30g and there is only 45mg/kg (= ppm) iron in the Fibre feed, then the amount of iron is not a concern (1.35 mg).  That also means, though, that none of the other minerals are present in meaningful amounts.  Even at 1kg/day the Fibre feed is not really doing much as a mineral supplement and I'd be leary of the added grass, oat feed and improved straw in it.  30g/day is probably not an issue though.

Have you looked at balancing your hay and minerals?  You would need a more complete hay analysis, including Ca, Mg, P, Fe, Cu, Zn and Mn.  We have a list of people that can help you ensure your minerals are appropriate for your hay and from safe feeds for an equine with (suspected or diagnosed) IR.  Alhough I suspect donkeys grow good hooves even when minerals are not balanced well, this is still helpful for all equines, not just ones that have EMS.  I noticed a huge improvement in hoof quality, whiteline tightness and reduction in thrush in my EMS horse, and even my boarder's horse who has amazing feet without added minerals look even better with appropriate minerals (he has skinny fractures or lines running down his hoof wall that are growing out now that he gets an appropriate supplement for his hay).  Here is the folder on diet balancing (the list of approved hay balancers is called Hay Balancing-1):
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/6%20Diet%20Balancing

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Vermont Blend

Sandy
 

Hi all - have a question.  I got a sample of the Vermont Blend Forage Balancer along with a sample of their Omega 3.  Both are powdered and I was curious if the Omega 3 needed an oil for absorption?  I've been using the VIt E gelcaps and squeezing the product into syringes with their meds as they wouldn't eat the gelcaps.  I have one that doesn't like things watered down so not sure the powders will work anyway but just curious of their Omega 3 needed anything additional for absorption.  I'm currently using Mad Barn Amino+  which they are eating okay so will probably continue but need to find the most economical one.
--
Sandy Kemp
Northeast Pennsylvania
Crystal Blue PPID/IR
Tiffany PPID
2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sandy%20and%20Tiffany 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sandy%20and%20Crystal%20Blue


DEIRDRE AND SMOKEY

DEIRDRE CARRAGHER
 

I did upload (i think) a case folder with the information I have to date. I am trying to get additional facts together but and not sure what my next step is. Please advise :) 
--
Deirdre Carragher  Long Island 2021


Re: Lavinia - request for mark ups

riggatoni@...
 

Thanks for the information Sherry as I couldn’t find any info on the outlast when I searched.  I can easily remove those 2 from her diet as well.

I am rinsing and soaking the beet pulp.  Her hay has been tested and is 7.57 ESC+starch.  I have sent samples to get a more complete analysis for balancing purposes.  I am not soaking her hay at this time.

Toni
--
Toni and Ella 
Pacific Northwest 2021

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Toni%20and%20Ella/
Ella's Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=262373

 

 


Re: Lavinia - request for mark ups

riggatoni@...
 

Hi,

Ella was last trimmed in March 30 and is presently being trimmed every 3 weeks.

She has had 3 sets of radiographs on her front feet and the links are in her case history.

Thanks,
Toni

--
Toni and Ella 
Pacific Northwest 2021

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Toni%20and%20Ella/
Ella's Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=262373

 

 


locked Re: Equi-analytical 604 analysis on Timothy Balanced Cubes and Amino Trace +

Nancy C
 
Edited

Hi Sandra

Thanks for sending the info.  I spent a good deal of time going over your info yesterday and will post about it shortly. But first, because there is so much misinformation about iron overload out in the ether, we need to go back to basic diet balancing concepts.

This is a really important message from Dr Kellon from 2005 that I hope you will take the time to read.  I post the link and the message here.

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/65569

Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...>
07/09/05  

Just to pound this home again briefly, because it can't be done
often enough, the key to the best control possible is:

D - Diagnosis
D - Diet
T - Trim

If the horse has/had laminitis, you can have the best metabolic
control in the world and he'll still be lame if the trim is not
correct. If the horse has Cushing's, diet alone won't be able to
control insulin resistance. This is why accurate diagnosis is so
important. There are also some horses that have Cushing's and
develop laminitis even without detectable insulin resistance.

Moving on to diet, this is the one thing that is completely within
your power to control, but it takes some work and commitment.
Limiting the soluble carbohydrate portion of the diet (sugar and
starches) greatly alleviates the strain on glucose metabolism, and
with it the risk of laminitis. It works, and it works fast. We've
even had horses here with lingering foot pain that improved
literally overnight just by starting to soak their hay (a trick one
of our long time members, Barb Peck, gave us!).

Most people see obvious results shortly after starting the emergency
diet, to the point they hang there for months and months. The
emergency diet is *not* mineral balanced though and there is more
you can do on the mineral end to improve the insulin resistance.

I'm going to post a series of studies over the next few days that
will show you how minerals and vitamins impact insulin resistance.
Before doing that though there is a very, very important concept to
understand.

Deficiencies can come about in basically two ways. One is that the
mineral (or vitamin) simply is not present in the diet in adequate
amounts. If you need 20 grams of something and the diet only has 10,
the horse will be deficient because he can't manufacture it out of
thin air. This is called an "absolute deficiency". The other way
deficiences come into existence is if there are high levels of one
or more minerals that compete with the one in question for
absorption. These are called "relative deficiencies". In that case,
even if you have your 20 grams of mineral X in the diet, the horse
often won't be absorbing enough. Picture balls in a lottery drawing
machine. If you have 9 black balls and only 1 white one, all
bouncing around at random coming close to that chute, it's not too
hard to guess what color ball has the best odds of being drawn. In
the intestine, there are also some mechanisms for active (not by
chance) absorption of minerals by attaching them to "carriers" that
take them directly inside the cells and move them out again into
capillaries. These carrier systems aren't necessarily specific for
one mineral - may work for others that are similar. They can be
either turned on or turned off, depending on the level of the
minerals inside the body. This can end up making overall
deficiencies even worse both by inadvertently absorbing more of a
mineral that is already in excess, or by shutting down the acftive
carrier systems when levels of a mineral in the body get too high or
even are adequate. The active absorption pathway for any other
minerals in short supply using the same carrier is then shut down
too.

What this all means is simply that you can't just throw minerals at
the horse at random. The key to successful use of mineral
supplements is BALANCE. It's extremely rare to find a hay that is
in good balance. Unfortunately, and perhaps not coincidentally, the
minerals most critical to proper insulin functioning and control of
inflammation are usually the ones in shortest supply, while
potentially toxic ones, like iron, are present in high amounts. What
balancing the minerals does is in essence change the profile of
those balls in the lottery machine to give all the minerals an equal
shot at absorption.

The recommendations in the emergency diet are based on some of the
most commonly encountered scenarios but that does not mean they'll
be a good fit for any individual's hay, and they're definitely not
comprehensive.

Controlling Cushing's and insulin resistance is tough. If there was
an easy answer, a quick fix, we wouldn't have over 3000 members here.
DDT is single most important concept to learn. Keeping this "big
picture" in mind at all times will help prevent you from focusing on
just one aspect and overlooking important things elsewhere. On the
diet end, it's about both limiting starch/sugar AND mineral
balancing. Halfway measures get halfway results.

Eleanor


--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2020-2021
Join us at the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference, August 13-15, ECIR Virtual Conference Room


Re: Liz & Onyx - New Results 2021

Elizabeth Kuzma
 

Hi Sherry,
I have always struggled to come up with an ideal weight on Onyx.  I am guesstimating at the 1000 lbs.  Currently I can feel every rib without pressing and does not look fat to me but is still very hairy.  I think in 2019 I was also still guessing at the ideal weight process and for that reason labeled him a 6.  

The weight of 1 cup of dry beet pulp is 2.7 oz.  I rinse it, soak it for an hour, and rinse it again before feeding.  I will cut him back on the timothy cubes.  When I cut his cubes, stabul 1 and beet pulp down to 1/3 of what he was getting previously he dropped a lot of weight and looked extremely ribby. I will try to get him to a exact total of 20 lbs. total feed. 

Do you all suggest retesting him soon based on all the variables and changes before taking him off the metformin?  Some suggested the weather was too cold (it was around 40 or 41 degrees F), the hay might be too high in sugar due to not having done a wet chemistry test, he only had hay for about 3.5 hours before blood draw, and is on a bit over the 2% total feed in weight.  Changes to soaking the hay, warmer temps, and lessening the total feed.....does this warrant a retest??

Thank you!
--
Elizabeth
Aug. 2019, Patchogue, NY
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Elizabeth%20and%20Onyx
Onyx's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=94258


Re: New case history files converted to pdf

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Julanne,

I thought I had responded last night, but apparently that was just a dream :-)  With that being said - is Oreo's hay currently being weighed?  Is it being soaked?  Have you stopped the Platinum Equine as well as the ration balancer? What about the Smart pak which has an alfalfa meal base?  All of of those can be problematic for an IR horse and could be one of the reasons why Oreo is not losing weight in spite of being in regular work. Also, be aware that MSM can be a problem for some IR horses as well so you may want to consider replacing the Cosequin with Devil's Claw. 

As far as her work schedule - have you increased the intensity or length of her workouts at all?  Was she in the same amount of work when her bloodwork was done last time? 




locked Re: Equi-analytical 604 analysis on Timothy Balanced Cubes and Amino Trace +

Cindy Galloway
 

Aurelio, I am thankful for your participation in this thread.  I come from a background of critical military supplies where testing is ongoing for every batch etc. etc., it's a very expensive rigorous process which controls the product results on every batch.  As you know, some of our horses may be more sensitive to iron, this should be considered 'critical' to the individual horse owner to do their due diligence although correct information from all feed providers is the second and just as important factor in this partnership.  On to due diligence, I think there might be a way to bridge this issue with information from you for these specific cases of sensitivity in their horses.  If you batch test for iron, even on a certain lot number, every batch, no matter the size should offer this information to horse owners due to the widespread use of the cubes (I am one of them).  

In trying to find a solution, and IF THERE IS A VALID TEST CONFIRMED HIGHER  iron percentage which 'could' possibly cause expanded IR issues offer this tested iron result on your website?  Or, set up a subscription where a customer could pay to have this information on hand before they purchase.  If my horses were particularly sensitive to iron I would pay to have this information because testing can be very expensive for a manufacture, maybe causing some (certainly not implying you are apart of this) to not offer batch testing?  Even something as easy as a two column table noting the batch number & the iron result?

Thank you for partaking in this discussion.
 
- Cindy
November 2017, Campton Hills, Illinois

Quattro
Yellow Horse


New case history files converted to pdf

Julanne Baker
 

Hopefully you can all now see my file. Both the pdf and pages format show up. I downloaded pages per case history instructions. I’ve never used it before. Sorry for the confusion.
--
Julanne in Florida 2020
CaseHistory

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Julanne%20and%20Oreo   


Re: Case History & Photo Album uploaded

Carrie
 

Sherry,
Thanks for your CH prompts.. I had added the links but didn't do the space after the links & possibly not the Save , although I thought I had  ! ha .. I'm there anyhow ..thanks for holding my hand & guiding !

Thank you  regarding your adorable comment- my donkey is a card & very wilful !

Regarding the potential feed points you raised ,if you think its ok for now -  I would feel comfortable staying as is for now- if you think this is ok:
This is because: 

1- Soaking hay - here its icy wet weather at the moment & probably will not dry enough to be eaten by her. Tried a long time ago & wasted so much hay when I first had her.
2- She appears to be reducing her fat pads slowly now she can move around a little more, following the farrier visit.
     Having adjusted her original feed amounts & diet following your Welcome info & prio to that from the threads on here, she seems to be going in the right direction weight wise.
3-I've used Hay Analysis by Forageplus in UK who use your American lab. They are listed on your site as reaching the standards ECIR group/Dr. Kellon would want, having worked together on it. So hoping that even though it was NIR analysis (will choose wet method next time), the numbers are low - ESC & Starch 3.7%  , so hopefully allows for some wiggle room this week as hoping to put off soaking hay until her blood results are in & weather turns windier if nothing else !

I'm not rinsing,soak,rinse Beet pulp - I'm half way through Alan & Page Fibre which is Sugar beet type, but in pellet form which disintegrates nearly immediately. So keeping the portion size low 30 g each day.
My next purchase when I run out, will be the Speedibeet I've seen recommended on your threads & site.

Out of interest this is what the Alan & Page Fibre feed includes :

Composition:
Nutritionally Improved Straw, Oat Feed, Molasses-Free Beet Pulp,  Linseed Expeller (6.1%), Grass Meal, Di-calcium Phosphate, Salt, Calcium Carbonate, Mint, Fenugreek, Organic Soya Oil, Yeast, Fructo-oligosaccharides

Nutritional Additives (per kg):
Vitamins: Vitamin A (3a672a): 10k iu; Vitamin D3 (3a671) 1.5k iu; Vitamin E (3a700) 250mg

Trace elements: Iron: 45mg (Iron (II) Sulphate Monohydrate) (3b103) Zinc: 70mg (Zinc Oxide) (3b603) Manganese: 75mg (Manganous Oxide) (3b502) Iodine: 1.00mg (Calcium Iodate Anhydrous) (3b202) Selenium: 0.35mg (Sodium Selenite) (3b801) Copper: 20mg (Cupric Chelate of Glycine, Hydrate) (3b413)

Feed recommendations on bag: 0.5 – 7.75kg depending on size, type, workload and condition. I am feeding 30g included in her daily allowance while cold. But will take it down a little more as the ingredients list Iron.

--
Carrie 
March 2021
UK 





Re: Cola!

Vmperisse@...
 

Thank you for explaining everything so plainly. I will look into these options. I think the b/o could handle a little oil topper.
--
Victoria P NJ 2021


Re: Dr Kellon/Dr. Clougher - need help re significant increase in triglycerides

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

I also had a little epiphany this evening but I am not 100% certain that this has empirical value... the first urine glucose test resulted in dark brown 110 in 30 seconds. All subsequent tests that were 2 to 4 weeks later never produced a result greater than 30 and most times was 15. I pontificate if this was because his body didn't have glucose store to release into his urine??
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Re: Dr Kellon/Dr. Clougher - need help re significant increase in triglycerides

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

HI Terri,

Yes there were subtle changes in Vinnie's behavior starting around Feb 8th.. He is usually very active and engaged socially with people and he just seemed off.. still nickered when he saw me but he looked at me like he was trying to tell me something.  

He started to get very grumpy and overtly agitated when I did normal chores about him. Putting his boots on he tried to bite me several times.  I thought this may be pain but, he seemed to just be annoyed by touch at times.

He was eating well, but he was getting more picky about hay. The old hay he stopped eating and the new hay that was greener but lower in sugar he would devour.  His poop seemed glossy which I thought was strange and now have learned that is fat in the stool.

He got foot sore even though his insulin was normal. He developed a crest and so I thought it may be early ppid so talked to my vet and we restarted prascend on about Feb 17th. We planned to pull blood in three weeks so titrated up prascend dose to 1mg.

Things deteriorated in small amts daily after Feb 23rd and he looked thin..and he has NEVER looked thin.. I increased his odbtc cubes and I added 1.5 cups RSR beet pulp.  He started to look a little better and then would have days where he seemed out if it. 

March 1st he was really really foot sore on hard surfaces and when he walked he looked neurological in his hind end, but seemed to walk out of it on soft surfaces.  Between March 1sth and March 8th he slowly seemed to improve weight wise but I was also throwing a ton of food at him. He had odd movements now and then like he was drunk. March 10th evening we did a 5 min walk and it was the best he had seemed soundness wise.  He seemed engaged and happy. I fed him his beet pulp while I lunged my mare and then I gave them their evening hay. He normally is happy chomping when I leave but he had gone to the back of his stall and had a sour face and he stared to paw.  I checked for gut sounds and he seemed a bit gassy.  I chalked it up to the increase of beet pulp and called my vet.  We gave him a dose of banamine and anti spaz and I walked him for a few mins. He seemed to stablize but 20 mins later he started pawing and seemd out of it..a little drunk.I called my vet and she said haul to UCD.

Earlier that day we had gotten the blood work back indicating high triglycerides with elevated liver enzymes and high cholesterol. My vet had pulled blood on 3/8 and decided to run a lipid panel because his serum was cloudy. 

Hope this helps :)

Thanks so much! Nan

--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104

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