Date   

Re: T4 cornell vs full thyroid

janieclougher@...
 

Hi, Lj - Some years ago all three of my horses had low total T4.  After 4 or 5 months of mineral balancing and supplemental Iodine and selenium as well, I did the full panel. They then all had low normal T4, but elevated free T4 and T3.  So, I lowered the iodine a hair. I am glad I did the full panel, as in my opinion it gives a more complete picture.

Jaini, Merlin, Maggie, Gypsy
BC09
ECIR mod/support




. .. The vet at Cornell in charge of the department  got on the line and said all she cares about is T4. and if it were her, there is . no need to do the other full thyroid tests.  Looking to get some direction as I did spend an additional $100 to add the full thyroid.. if not really needed then I wont do full thyroid in May?.. lj friedman san diego nov 2014.


ECHistory8



Re: Help Analyzing Georgia's lab work

janieclougher@...
 

Well, for heaven's sake! That's what happens with sticky keys on the tablet. "bloodwpportork" is suppoosed to be "bloodwork"!

Jaini and crew
BC09
ECIR mod/support




T4 cornell vs full thyroid

lj friedman
 

Around May 01, I will retest at Cornell for the usual things.. acth glucose, leptin and thyroid. Jesse has low thyroid levels so because I had ordered a test that just did t4, I had vet call Cornell and add full thyroid when he was tested in January,. Today I called Cornell to see if they had a package that included all the tests and full thyroid, instead of ordering the separately. .. The vet at Cornell in charge of the department  got on the line and said all she cares about is T4. and if it were her, there is . no need to do the other full thyroid tests.  Looking to get some direction as I did spend an additional $100 to add the full thyroid.. if not really needed then I wont do full thyroid in May?.. lj friedman san diego nov 2014.


ECHistory8



Re: Help Analyzing Georgia's lab work

janieclougher@...
 

I thnk, given those circumstances, that the bloodwork was just fine. Nice to have that other horse's bloodwpportork done at the same time to confirm that!

Jaini, Merlin, Maggie, Gypsy
BC09
ECIR mod/support



You mentioned a hiccup in the bloodwork. There was a hiccup but Cornell has assured us that the result of the insulin/leptin/glucose were not effected. We sent it out 4/2 overnight air UPS ($57!) and then found out that it was delayed due to inclement weather and did not arrive until 4/6. Cornell says that delay can cause a slight change in ACTH but not insulin/leptin. The other lady at the barn had her bloodwork done the same morning and shipped with mine. Her results came back sky high, insulin 84, leptin 6.7, glucose 106. Being that my results were low/normal and hers were high (her horse is overweight and has much more severe laminitis episodes) I feel like they are correct. Any thoughts on that?

Michelle in IN
3/2015
ECHistory8


Re: Dawn joins the angel horses

Rita Creitz
 

Dear LeeAnne,

I am so, so sorry.  Since losing Houdon 2 weeks ago, my tears still come easily, and are flowing again now for your loss as well as mine.  But as you so well said...."sorrow will grow to become memories"....Cheers to that.   

Best,

Rita and Houdon (in spirit) 


---In EquineCushings@..., <ThePitchforkPrincess@...> wrote :


It is a very sad time but like all other things in life, it will change.  She will be missed but sorrow will grow to become memories.  They will keep growing and include the friends and horses we knew and loved.  These remembrances will fill my old age the way dreams of her filled my childhood.  



Re: Help Analyzing Georgia's lab work

Michelle Werner
 

Dr. Kellon-thank you for your input. That is what my vet had mentioned, maybe since she is doing so well with her diet her numbers are within normal range. She has never had a "major"  laminitis episode compared to another horse at my barn. Georgia's episodes are/were mild but frequent, almost more of a depressed look, pulses in her feet, walking very slow and sort of stiff with hesitancy to make turns. I honestly probably would not have noticed it if my vet hadn't noticed the way she walked during a routine exam. Now I am hyper alert to any changes and drive myself a bit nuts monitoring her :) 

I have her detailed hay analysis done and would like to have you mineral balance for her. I will go to your website to see how to start that process. That analysis is in my file.

Jaini-I think I fixed my files....not sure what happened there :) Thank you for the compliment...I try to be a good horse mum :) You described Georgia well...very sensitive but corrects easily. I keep a journal of her diet/activity daily to track what may set her off...she is doing excellent on the emergency diet so time to balance her diet with the proper minerals.

You mentioned a hiccup in the bloodwork. There was a hiccup but Cornell has assured us that the result of the insulin/leptin/glucose were not effected. We sent it out 4/2 overnight air UPS ($57!) and then found out that it was delayed due to inclement weather and did not arrive until 4/6. Cornell says that delay can cause a slight change in ACTH but not insulin/leptin. The other lady at the barn had her bloodwork done the same morning and shipped with mine. Her results came back sky high, insulin 84, leptin 6.7, glucose 106. Being that my results were low/normal and hers were high (her horse is overweight and has much more severe laminitis episodes) I feel like they are correct. Any thoughts on that?

Michelle in IN
3/2015
ECHistory8


Pergolide & testosterone / 2nd request

Valeree Smith
 

Do we know if pergolide can have an effect on testosterone levels?

Valeree, GD, Jake & Annie
ECHK Support
SoCal, 09/03

Sent from my iPhone


Re: 11 year old PPID gelding On an OFF eating

corrine haffner
 

Hi Lavinia 

He's on 54 100mg  doxy pills 2 times a day started i think it was the  3rd or 4 of march,so just a little over a month now he's been on it,seems like 3 months already. So go down 0.25mg on pergolide and see how he responds? if appetite improves or not. How long before he'd show signs of cushings? or change in appetite for the better?

I tried giving him his pellets this afternoon when i fed my 28 year old mare her senior feed, have to feed her 3 times a day. He wasn't interested in his pellets pushes feed pan around then just stands there,even put mints in it wouldn't even them. I see no signs of lyme dease either unless it showing up as him being sore footed?


Corrine and Jasper
MN 4/2014






Re: Help Analyzing Georgia's lab work

janieclougher@...
 

Hi, Michelle -  Thank you for the case history link! Now for the bad news: the case history form is as it was when initially downloaded; ie, it hasn't been filled in. Bummer!  The hay analysis file only has the bloodwork uploaded into it - I couldn't find the hay.

Reading over your previous posts, I would say Georgia is extremely lucky to have you for a mum. I strongly suspect many horses go for years with low grade laminitis, and the IR status isn't discovered until something tips them over into frank laminitis.(Ahem - I am embarrassed to say this would be two of mine. They were showing similar signs to Georgia, and I was too thick to realize something was going on. Thank heavens I know better now, thanks to this group) So, good for you for being so observant and on the ball.  

So- she is one sensitive mare. It could well be that she is sensitive to any insulin spike caused by higher sugar, starch or protein,  but that her insulin comes back down quite promptly once the trigger is removed.  I know these blood results are puzzling. I would bet the family farm that if you were to do the glucose challenge test she would test through the roof - and then be footsore for days.  Not worth it!

I don't have a good explanation of why she is so sensitive and her blood work is so good (beyond what I said above) but if you continue to manage her very meticulously, as you have been, then once she starts exercising full time again things may improve.  It is just barely possible (just barely) that there was a hiccup in the blood handlng, but usually when that happens the glucose is abnormally low (being quite sensitive to blood handling conditions)

It just goes to show how much we don't yet know about all the physiological hiccups of IR and laminitis in the horse. Beth and Flame have very high insulin and glucose results, and Flame happily carries on working without sore feet.  Georgia's numbers are exemplary when she is tested;  but in between things set her off and make her footsore.

Anyway, hang in there, and good work on your part.

Jaini, Merlin, Maggie, Gypsy
BC09
ECIR mod/support







 :

...I had Georgia's labs drawn 4/2, I expected them to be completely out of whack with her being so sensitive to the slightest diet change or exposure to grass. Instead the results have me feeling maybe a little more confused...is IR what I'm dealing with? She is on the emergency diet and has been for @ 2 weeks now. Receiving dry timothy hay, flax, salt, magnesium.


I have updated her file and will attach link below. I also ordered the 603 analysis of her hay and have added that to my file.


Thank you,


Michelle in IN

ECHistory8

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Michelle%20and%20Georgia/


Re: Blood tests

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 




Your symptoms are all consistent with PPID not being well controlled.  The pergolide dose is very low for a horse his size and how long he has had this diagnosis.  You should do ACTH again but regardless of the result I would try increasing his dose to at least 1 mg.

The winter hoof pain is another issue though and often responds to supplementation to improve blood flow to the hooves and protection from cold by wraps, etc.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: Help Analyzing Georgia's lab work

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 


It's entirely possible for labs to test normal when on a controlled diet and not actively laminitic. It  doesn't necessarily mean she's not IR.

That said, you can have distal descent (sinking) and stressed laminar connections that are related to mineral deficiencies/imbalances and trimming errors rather than IR. Essential amino acids also play a role and fat is important in providing the moisture resistant seal that hooves need.

It won't hurt your horse to have a forage based diet and mineral balancing may be one of the keys to fixing any hoof issues you have.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: Flame's new bloodwork

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 




I agree with all the posts so far that there is no immediately obvious explanation for this.  The hay is a big unknown but not likely to explain those numbers.

ACTH testing is not foolproof. I suspect the slow shedding and unexplained severe IR is why your vet wants you to try pergolide and that's perfectly reasonable.

Also agree with getting an iron panel but wouldn't send to Cornell first. Blood for ferritin has to be handled as carefully as for ACTH so going through a middle man lab just increases the chances of the sample not being handled carefully.  Send right to KSU.

Also agree to stop NuZu for a while and make sure you have a complete chemistry panel plus a CBC with fibrinogen to look for any evidence of a chronic infection that could be fueling the IR.

If not on magnesium I would go with 10 grams of magnesium/day and chromium can be an issue in your area so try that at 10 mg.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: Chastetree berry dosage

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Barbara,

It's not a set amount. Generally recommend starting at 1 ounce (by weight) of CTB powder for the average sized horse. If no change after 10 days -2 weeks, can add more. Potency of the batch and individual sensitivities play a part.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team



Re: 11 year old PPID gelding On an OFF eating

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Corinne,

Not likely the pergolide dose is too high as he was fine with it a few weeks ago. You could always reduce the dose by .25mg and see if the lack-of-appetite changes. Just need to be on the look-out for signs the PPID then becomes an issue.

What is the dose of doxy he is getting? How long has he been on it now?

I have one that is similar when he needs meds so I know what it's like to chase one around. Locking him in for meals has worked for me.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


Blood tests

Julie Wood
 

Julie Wood Mayerthorpe Alberta, would like some advice on my 22 yr old wb/tb  16.2 gelding diagnosed Cushings 8 yrs ago. He has Laminitis flare ups in the winter  only usually,( he has 4 weekly trims, balanced diet, 24 hr turn out. .5mg pergolide) Usually by now all is normally good but he is still getting occasional Laminitis flare ups, his shedding is out of whack too. His coat is shiny tho but he seems to be losing his topline and appears to have a pot belly. (He is wormed regularly). I am in contact with my vet and Im going to ask him to do some blood work What should I be asking for? His ACTH was done last year and it was normal. I also use soft ride boots in the winter they seem to help with the severe cold and hard ground we have in our winters.


Chastetree berry dosage

barbaraa16
 

Can someone tell me the dosage for chastetree berry to help with shedding on a mg/kg basis?


Help Analyzing Georgia's lab work

Michelle Werner
 

I had Georgia's labs drawn 4/2, I expected them to be completely out of whack with her being so sensitive to the slightest diet change or exposure to grass. Instead the results have me feeling maybe a little more confused...is IR what I'm dealing with? Does a highly sensitive horse not necessarily mean numbers will be more elevated?


Free choice hay all night and am, no supplements until after blood draw which was taken @ 9 am. Sent to Cornell. 

Glucose 74 mg/dl (71-113)

Insulin 8.80 uIU/ml (10-40)

Leptin 1.43 ng/ml (1-4)

ACTH 7.43 pg/ml (9-35)


She is on the emergency diet and has been for @ 2 weeks now. Receiving dry timothy hay, flax, salt, magnesium.


I have updated her file and will attach link below. I also ordered the 603 analysis of her hay and have added that to my file.


Thank you,


Michelle in IN

ECHistory8

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Michelle%20and%20Georgia/


Re: Flame's new bloodwork

janieclougher@...
 

Hi, Beth - agree with Nancy - time to go back to the Diagnosis and Diet.  I am at a bit of a loss as to what is driving that insulin and glucose, so hoping Dr. Kellon will chime in here.  I the meantime, here is what I would do if it were my horse: stop the Nuzu for 2 weeks and re-test insulin, glucose, and leptin, plus get a Kansas State University iron panel. Cornell will do the basic iron panel, then ask for ferritin as well (Cornell will send it out). If Lyme were the culprit, I think Flame would be lame. 

The reason I say do a trial of no Nuzu is that the 4.5% starch may just be too high for him.

I am assuming his initial bloodwork included a chemistry panel and CBC, and that kidneys, liver etc were all okay?

I wish I could be of more help! This is puzling.

Jaini (BSc, BVSc), Merlin, Maggie, Gypsy
BC09
ECIR mod/support


Re: Average age for Cushings confirmed horses

s19699890@...
 

My Rocky Mountain Horse mare was diagnosed PPID and IR when she was 8 years old.
Sandy McMahon
Vancouver Island, B.C.


Re: 11 year old PPID gelding On an OFF eating

corrine haffner
 

Hi Lavinia 

He's still off his feed eats for a 2 days then wants nothing to do with feed for  2 sometimes 3 days. I quit putting doxy in feed and have been syringing it in him. He gets supplement 30 minutes before doxy,although today it was 50 minutes after supplement before he got doxy. He was having no part of being caught,even though he showing soreness today.  

He's going in barn tonight after the supplement so i can get doxy in him 30 minutes after supplement. Have sugar free mints i give before, i give supplement and before doxy,then he gets a mint after. 

He never stand square always with hind end under neath himself,so feet must still be an issue yet? He just seems real crabby,guess i can't blame him.   He's still on 1.5mg of pergolide is it possible that dose is now to high? Dr Kellon said not to re test him till after he's done with doxy,so re testing now isn't in the cards.Or maybe the dosage isn't high enough ?   

I'v asked vet about the dosage and he said to leave it where it is,so i don't know. No signs of ulcer trouble and no colic,so have no clue why he's on and off with feed. I thought we were good then BAM he's back to not eating good. I'v even gone back to post DR Kellon had and re read it to make sure i'am doing things right and i am,thought maybe i'am missing something here.  I was just on there this morning double checking,guess i'am doubting myself. I keep going back over stuff to see where i'am going wrong with his care,its got to be something i not doing or doing wrong.?  Will try and get new picture of his feet now his shoes are off.  


Thank you,
Corrine and Jasper
MN 4/2014




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