Date   

Re: New to this group and not computer savvy, Help!

janieclougher@...
 

Hi, Mary Ann - Kudos to you for volunteering at the rescue group.  In addition to Mandy's excellent reply to you, have a look at this post from Nancy (it is repeated monthly):

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/topics/192366

And here is a little hint about navigating the files:  at the top of the home page, or the conversations page, you will see "Files"  Click on that.  This takes you to a list of files which Neo has bizarrely formatted by date of uploading (not helpful).  At the top of that page, on the right-hand side (below "Membership") you will see "Actions" with a little down arrow.  Click on "Actions"; then click on "Alphabetical".  If you prefer the files to always be in the Alphabetical format, see below in the description of how to edit your membership.

And, best of all, LeeAnn, our files guru, has made a searchable Table of Contents:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/24516590/ECIR%20Files%20Table%20of%20Contents.pdf

If that link doesn't work, use  ECIR Files Table of Contents

I changed your membership to "Daily Digest", so that you get only one email per day, with all the messages in it. if you want to go back to "Individual emails", click on "Membership"; then click on the bar at the bottom of that which says: "Edit Membership";  then click on the tiny pencil beside "Subscriptions" - this will take you to a page where you can edit your membership.  I have to confess it took me forever to figure out that the tiny pencil had a use, and then I only found out by accident.

If you want to have the files in alphabetical order, scroll down a little farther, and click on the pencil beside "Sort & View Preferences"; then change the Files to "Alphabetical"  Don't forget to click on the purple Save button below that.

Hope that helps a little.

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC 09
ECIR mod/support
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/

 







Re: High Ca Hay

Nancy C
 

Hi Sharon

I think I'd wait on the pergolide to see testing if he were here, if your vet was to come soon.

MSU thyroid includes free T3 which is not included on Cornell but Cornell can still give you a good idea.

As you have pointed out, your high insulin could be driven by the ridiculous weather you are seeing.  Beau's insulin is never controlled and can swing by as much as 100 in very cold weather. 

If he is getting dead grass or roots that will have an impact too.

I probably don't have to say this, but when you can get back online, make sure you include your  CH link. Your dedicated volunteers want to make sure they review.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
FACT: Blood flow to the foot passes to the rear of the foot, providing support and dissipating vibrational energy. See RM Bowker, VMD, PhD, The Vascular Cushion Of The Frog What Does It Do?  2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.




Sent from my iPhone
Please forgive any errors


Re: calcium in hard water

Nancy C
 

Thanks for checking me, Eva.  Good education on minerals in water.

And thanks for that post link which I am repeating here.  It's a  good one.

For fellow readers, who want to know more about Mienrals and IR, especially the impact of Magnesium (or lack thereof) Please see 2013 NO Laminitis Proceeding by Dr Kellon on Minerals and IR at the link below my signature.   Proceeding downloads are free.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Invest in the health of your horse and help ECIR Group nonprofit at the same time! Hear Drs Kellon, Bowker and more, in eight hours of great info and informative Q&A from 2013 NO Laminitis! Conference.

Conference Proceedings & Recordings

 






---In EquineCushings@..., <gentpony@...> wrote :


The percent change in mineral balance for any diet would depend on the actual figures involved.  

However, since we are talking about a smaller pony, I might expect that adding 3.4 – 4 grams of calcium might have an even greater effect, since the recommended daily intake is less, but again, what is actually happening depends on the actual intake, accurate body weights and the analysis of the feed and water.  Also, during hot Texas weather, Ginger might be drinking more than 5 gallons of water, so there would be an even higher calcium intake.

 

Since minerals have not been balanced long term, the likelihood of long standing relative magnesium deficiency is high.  Given the health problems presented, I’d be getting the complete water analysis as suggested to best remedy the situation.

 

Here is another post from Dr Kellon concerning well water:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/37754

 



Re: IR horse - help with crest

Lorna Cane
 


Hi Ann,

>Hello all - I'm a first time poster here with a horse that has me at my wits end.


I'm sorry about what you are going through,but you have come to the right place for help.


I know you have been a member since 2007,but an 'official' welcome will be on its way soon,to get you started helping your boy.


You yourself ,though, can begin right now to enter all the details into a case history ,if you have never done this.

Go in our Files to https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/%201%20START%20HERE%21%21%21/


and scroll down to Case History 8 directions.


We ask all our members to add their location,date of joining,and case history link to their signatures every time they post.

If you already have a case history you can add the link to your signature.Or add the Case History8 link to it when you get it completed.


The devil is in the details ,so all this information in one place will help both you and the volunteers to get a better handle on what is going on.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

 


Re: calcium in hard water

gentpony
 

Hi Nancy,

>Somebody check my math, please?

 

As requested, I found no problems with your math. 


Since the reported range was 10.5 – 12 grains per gallon, I also worked out that if test results were 10.5 grains, that would be around 3.4 g in 5 gallons of water.

 

It is unclear if the concentration is referring to total water hardness or only the concentration of Calcium in the water.

Assuming this is referring to Calcium (which likely is the dominant mineral in this water), I believe that adding 3.4 to 3.8 grams of calcium and no other balancing minerals (phosphorus and magnesium) to the diet of a 10H pony would be enough to throw off the mineral balance of the ODTB cubes.  How much the balance would be affected depends on the actual analyses of the cubes, the water and the Timothy pellets.

 

For reference, I pulled out my calculations for my own 450 lb 12 H pony, and added 3.4 – 4 grams of calcium only to his mineral balanced hay diet (per NRCPlus guidelines).  This represents an additional 24 – 28% increase in calcium.    It resulted in significant changes to the tight mineral balance I wanted, altering both the Ca:P and Ca:Mg ratios by a similar percentage.  

 

The percent change in mineral balance for any diet would depend on the actual figures involved.  

However, since we are talking about a smaller pony, I might expect that adding 3.4 – 4 grams of calcium might have an even greater effect, since the recommended daily intake is less, but again, what is actually happening depends on the actual intake, accurate body weights and the analysis of the feed and water.  Also, during hot Texas weather, Ginger might be drinking more than 5 gallons of water, so there would be an even higher calcium intake.

 

Since minerals have not been balanced long term, the likelihood of long standing relative magnesium deficiency is high.  Given the health problems presented, I’d be getting the complete water analysis as suggested to best remedy the situation.

 

Here is another post from Dr Kellon concerning well water:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/37754

 

Eva

SW Ontario,  March 2005

NRCPlus Jan12


IR horse - help with crest

eahsmath@...
 

Hello all - I'm a first time poster here with a horse that has me at my wits end.  He foundered in Feb of 2011 when he was 7 coming 8.  Totally took me by surprise.  He sank and rotated, vet didn't think he would make it.  After bloodwork showed that he was IR, I started testing my hay and having a nutritionist (KG) balance it for me.  He gets no grain and no treats.  He came back strong and I even got back to showing and jumping him the last 2 years.   He's a wonderful horse that I absolutely adore.


This Fall he abscessed and it was a big one and he was quite lame for some time.  Out came the crest which I struggled with and I think it came down a bit in late Fall into Winter.  I was unable to exercise him due to his lameness and it seems as if suddenly the crest appeared and he had a laminitic attack in Jan of 2015.  I've had him x-rayed a few times and they don't look too bad but he's still not sound = no exercise.


I can't get his IR under control.  The vet pulled blood when she was here in Jan and his insulin number was 89.9 (reference interval 10-40).  I don't know what else to do.  The vet doesn't know and I have consulted with his nutritionist as well.  Does anybody have any suggestions as to what I can do?  He's been on Metformin for the last 2 weeks and I started him on chromium as well.  He has been on magnesium and thryol-L as well as the vitamins and minerals the nutritionist suggested.  His hay tested wsc 8.1, esc 6.1, starch .2.  The protein was 17.8.  He is not fat, I can easily feel his ribs but he has the crest of stallion.


Thank you in advance for any help that anybody can provide!

Ann


Re: High Ca Hay

Sharon Manning
 

Hi There Nancy,
Thanks for that reminder about the C:P ratio. My notes say as little as 3:1 would cause bone changes. If your right and I am wrong, I think I will redo the calculations as I am having some issues of my herd refusing to eat that much Phos added to the Cubes. My vet wanted to send blood to MSU because I was wanting thyroid and she said Cornell didn't do that test. I new Cornell was preferred but didn't know MSU was giving false neg. results (wasted hard earned money). I also didn't remember that our unusual bitterly cold weather could effects insulin. Should of. You would think my vet would of known that? So Blaze may not be as bad as it looks as far as IR but I still think he is PPID. dr K thinks it is possible also. I hate to sound like I hope he has PPID but at least I know that's treatable and if treated correctly his blood work will improve, if not then there is a medical issue that's really not good and unKnown including IR. So I will retest aSAP when the weather calms down and the temps rise, which is happening now.
I didn't include his height as I had that information written down elsewhere and will include it I hid CH when I can retrieve it. He is very overweight I would say a 8. A slight soft crest but no other fatty pockets, only the humongous sheath which changes daily.
Now that his ataxia is improved to the point he does not stumble or fall at liberty I feel more comfortable stalling and dry lotting him to try and get the weight down. It will have to be electric as his draft nature is to push right through anything between him and what he wants. Many a stall front has sub come to his might when he was boarded.
I have thought of just starting him on a trial dose of pergoiled to see if the sheath swelling responded but then that would effect the new blood test. What do you think? Its looking today that by TOMARROW a 4x4 should be able to make it up my driveway. I think the vet has that.
Sharon


Sent from my iPhone
Please forgive any errors


Re: calcium in hard water

Nancy C
 

Hi Beverly

For my continued education in hard water, can youplease tell me, not a problem in terms of total calcium intake or not a problem in terms of addressing Calcium/Magnesium/Phosphorous balance?

Thanks

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

FACT: With knowledge of the nutrient profile of the forage and the animal's weight and level of work, one can supplement only what is needed to target nutritional needs.  See  Smithey and Gustafson, Nutrition Complexities and Mineral Profiles of Hay 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 





---In EquineCushings@..., <bmeyer@...> wrote :

I emailed one of the listed mineral balancers who lives in Texas and she
suggested the water calcium is not an issue.


Re: calcium in hard water

beverly meyer
 

I emailed one of the listed mineral balancers who lives in Texas and she suggested the water calcium is not an issue. I might test and analyze anyway due to magnesium concerns.
Thanks for taking the time to check this out Nancy!
PS Sorry I forgot to delete my clinic name and address below prior posts. It's automatically entered on all emails unless I delete it specifically.
Beverly 6/14
Beverly Texas
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Beverly%20Texas/


Re: New to Group and need help to post

melbarnet
 

Hi Tara,

Here are a few points that came to mind while reading about Elf.

If it is decided not to continue with Thyro-L, it should not be stopped abruptly, since it takes the body some time to adjust to replacing its own hormones.  The dose should be slowly tapered down over six to eight weeks. This link explains a protocol for this:

 

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/186314

 

Also, Dr Kellon has mentioned that thyroid hormones increase in winter to assist with dealing with the cold, so if you were thinking of decreasing the Thyro-L, that might best be left until the weather is warmer.

 

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/124326


Good that you have the mind set to tackle the weight problem. As already advised, hay testing and appropriately balanced minerals are also key to controlling IR.  Hay testing also determines the calorie content of your hay, so the amount needed to fed can be more precisely calculated.

 

Eva

SW Ontario, March 2005


Prascend Experiences and Reporting to the FDA

Nancy C
 

*** Prascend Experiences 

Anxiety is running high over the claim that 1 to 3  mg  of Prascend (average size horse) will work as well as any dose of compounded pergolide. 

The value of this group lies heavily in members reporting their experiences. We now have nearly 30 reports in this file. 

If you have any information to share about Prascend, either dosage related or side effects, good or bad, please send your story to one of the ECIR Group moderators: 


Lorna Cane <briars@...> Jaini Clougher <merlin5clougher@...> Nancy Collins <threecatfarm@...>. Eleanor Kellon VMD <drkellon@...

Your file will be uploaded to the Prascend Experiences File. If you prefer to not have your name used, the moderators will protect your identity. 

All members may read about fellow member experiences here

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/%201%20A%20a%20Prascend%20Experiences/>


*** Reporting Adverse Reactions and Ineffective Drugs or Supplements to the FDA  

Failure to respond to the recommended dose is an adverse event that should be reported to FDA as a therapeutic failure.  Evidence of failure to respond can be comprised of observation of clinical signs (lack of change in symptoms) or through blood work.

Information on how to contact the FDA may be found here. 


Reports become part of the permanent Adverse Drug Experience records.



Owners, Moderators & Primary Response Teams of the Equine Cushing’s and Insulin Resistance Yahoo group



How to find things in the ECIR Group. Save this post.

Nancy C
 


We have a lot of new members.   Learning to navigate Yahoo, especially NEO, takes a bit of work. Once you have it though, the resource is invaluable. If you are trying to find a particular file or topic discussion, and having trouble, please speak up. You are not alone and by asking you will help others.

There’s so much info here, the links below can help you negotiate the learning
curve and find background to questions and issues:

** DDT+E - Diagnosis, Diet, Trim plus Exercise - What is it?


Once at the above page, click on the list to the left for even more detail.

****START HERE folder.  Similar to above but also has other great files. including how to start a Case History.


** What blood testing do I need for diagnosis?



** How to get help with Mineral Balancing



** How to search the FILES sections for documents with NEO.  You must be a member to do this. Go to the FILES section via the web page


At the top of your browser window, look for the SEARCH FILES WINDOW and enter your search word(s).  Try Diagnosis, for example.  All docs with diagnosis in them will appear.  In this case DDT Diagnosis, diagnosing Insulin Resistance, IR Pony Field Study, Low Dose Dex test and more all came up. Click on the Topic heading to open the document.


** Archived Messages - How to Search this treasure trove of information and
history in the NEW NEO format


** Current Case History filing cabinet accepting new member info.  You must join this History group just like you did in the main ECIR Yahoo group.


Links to ALL Case History Sites  (Scroll down to  Links to ECIR History Sites.pdf) 


***What you need to do to get hoof help. How to get good pictures.


Like us on Facebook!


*** Donate to the ECIR Group Inc.  nonprofit!



Owners, Moderators & Primary Response Teams of the Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Yahoo group


REMEMBER: If you get an error message when clicking on a link or tiny URL, check your BROWSER WINDOW and remove pets. from the URL. You may also need to clean your Cache/history.

We know this is an extra step when you are in high anxiety.  Hang in there.  It gets easier. 

If you are lost, speak up.


Re: mineral question

llkeach50
 

MVP ( Med-Vet Pharmaceuticals) sells a pelleted magnesium.  United Vet Equine ( among others ) sells it and the price is not bad.
 
Linda K.
 
2003/NY


Water testing

lj friedman
 

there has been some recent posts about water testing to properly balance a horses's diet.  Since joining in November, I dont remember much about the need for water testing and I know when I started the ER diet in November, water was not brought up.  any thoughts?  lj friedman san diego nov 2014


Re: New to this group and not computer savvy, Help!

Mandy Woods
 

Hi Mary Ann,
That’s great that you are volunteering at a rescue.   You will receive lots of new information regarding horse management,  Cushings aka PPID and IR.   For starters you could read the information at www.ecirhorse.org       Of course the files here are available for you.   If you have any questions please ask.   You might want to start a spiral notebook to keep notes if you run into something you don’t understand.    The Start Here File will get you started.   You’ll catch on really fast.
 
Your question about the Cushings mare receiving her pergolide in a piece of carrot........I do that too.   Sometimes equine get tired of the same ole feed or carrier so we try to mix it up for them.  Many members have used one inch of carrot cored enough to hold a pergolide pill.   There are also prunes cut in half,  a single grape,  a peanut shell with one peanut,  a handful of orchard grass pellets or Salty flax cookies.    You  are correct in the fact that Cushings/IR horses should not be given sugar but there is very little sugar in these items if you don’t over do it!    By this we mean one a day!     Read the Picky Eater File.
 
The horse you are helping should have her hay analyzed and the minerals balanced to its assay.  This would be the perfect diet in a perfect world.   The fact that her hooves look good means someone was considering her diet long before she arrived at the rescue.    Did she have bloodwork to confirm Cushings and IR?    That would be a start for  you ~ read her lab reports and find out how severe her Cushings is.  The IR DIET supports a Cushings horse along with the correct dose of pergolide.
 
As you read the files,  you’ll see our philosophy is DDT/E.  This means  DIAGONSIS,  DIET,  TRIM  and EXERCISE.  Do all four and you’ll see positive results.
 
Keep us posted.  
Mandy in VA
EC Primary Response
OCT 2003
 


Re: Refusing Beet pulp

M K
 

Thanks, this is starting to make sense now.


New to this group and not computer savvy, Help!

Mary Ann Massey
 

Hello,


I am new to Yahoo and online discussion groups in general. I recently joined this group hoping to gain valuable information about PPID and IR. This is my first time joining an online group and I'm totally lost as to how to navigate this site, ask questions and it is all very overwhelming for a 50 year old "non computer literate" person. 


I recently signed up to volunteer for a horse rescue and we currently have an old mare with PPID. There are several volunteers who take turns caring for this old mare. She is given a pergolide capsule once per day (I'm not sure of the dosage). Many of the volunteers put her pill inside either a piece of carrot or apple. Should she be getting any sweet treats at all? They tell me she's foundered in the past, but her hooves look good to me. No ridges, no dropped sole and she's not lame. Please point me in the right direction for help.


Thanks,


Mary Ann 

Nova Scotia, Canada


Re: New to Group and need help to post

Mary Ann Massey
 

To
EquineCushings Moderator
Today at 6:44 PM


Re: calcium in hard water

Nancy C
 

OK, we've invested a bit of time into this conversation, here's one more try.   Somebody check my math, please?

Based on previous posts, your reported 12 grains per gallon is 205 ppm of Calcium

http://www.unitconversion.org/concentration-solution/grains-per-gallon-us-to-parts-per-million-ppm-conversion.html

ppm = mg/litres of water

http://delloyd.50megs.com/ppm.html

So you have 205 mg of Calcium per liter of water

Five gallons per day would be almost 19 liters = 3895 mg per day/1000 = 3.8 grams of calcium

Minerals are more available in water.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/115292

We are typically most concerned with the iron and manganese in the water being 10 Xs more available but Calcium:Magnesium balance is huge for a pony with IR.  There's more in the archives from Dr Kellon.  I think I provided a link already.  She states hard water can affect magnesium absorption.

There is no need to guess. I would trust Dairy One.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Invest in the health of your horse and help ECIR Group nonprofit at the same time! Hear Drs Kellon, Bowker and more, in eight hours of great info and informative Q&A from 2013 NO Laminitis! Conference.

http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/conference-proceedings-recordings



---In EquineCushings@..., <bmeyer@...> wrote :


As for the minerals in this water, I'm guessing there's not enough
calcium there to throw off the ratio in ODTB and Timothy. Hope so anyway!
Beverly 6/14
Beverly Texas

--
Beverly Meyer, MBA
Clinical and Holistic Nutritionist
www.ondietandhealth.com
Facebook: Beverly Meyer on Diet and Health
Radio: Primal Diet - Modern Health


Re: calcium in hard water

beverly meyer
 

Hi Maggie,
Thanks for the info on Dairy One for water testing. I had found them on the Internet but figured that low price meant a lousy test.
As for the minerals in this water, I'm guessing there's not enough calcium there to throw off the ratio in ODTB and Timothy. Hope so anyway!
Beverly 6/14
Beverly Texas

--
Beverly Meyer, MBA
Clinical and Holistic Nutritionist
www.ondietandhealth.com
Facebook: Beverly Meyer on Diet and Health
Radio: Primal Diet - Modern Health

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