Date   

Re: calcium in hard water

Maggie
 

Hi Beverly,

Did you know that Dairy One does water analysis?  Here's a link:  http://dairyone.com/analytical-services/water/   And then within that page, click on the link that says "Water Sample Information Sheet."  It will give you the details, prices and collecting instructions.  They will also send you free sterile collection containers.  Since a complete test is $38, the biggest cost might be the overnight shipping.  I tested my well water through them a few years back and I called them and talked to someone (wish I could remember his name) who was very helpful!  I, too, had found the to get my water tested locally was exorbitantly priced--if I recall correctly, about the same you are seeing.  The only thing about Dairy One is they are not "certified" so if you were in litigation about your water, their test could not be used.  But the guy told me it's the exact same test!  I think I paid a little less than $20 to ship it overnight, but still a deal!!  You should at least give them a call and talk to them!

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
EC Primary Response
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/



WAS calcium in hard water NOW: NRCPlus Course

Nancy C
 

Hi Shannon

Go to www.drkellon.com. Next one is in April I think.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
check - FACT: The VA Polytechnic Pony Study is the only study to look at IR and laminitis under natural conditions. See  E. M. Kellon, VMD, Diagnosis of Insulin Resistance and PPID, 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, http://www.ecirhorse.org

 




---In EquineCushings@..., <wagaman@...> wrote :

So where can one find out info on the NRC course?

 


 


Re: calcium in hard water

Shannon Chastain
 

So where can one find out info on the NRC course?

 

Shannon MO

~2010 ( really do not remember J)

 

From: EquineCushings@... [mailto:EquineCushings@...]
Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2015 10:50 AM
To: EquineCushings@...
Subject: [EquineCushings] Re: calcium in hard water

 

 

Hi Beverly

No worries Beverly, we've all been there.

For balancing, have three suggestions:

Years ago, a lot of members spent hours combing through the messages and NRC Nutrient Requirements of Horses to learn how to balance.  All that info is still there if you want to take the time to do the searching.

Dr Kellon's NRCPlus Course is worth the cost times ten.

Third option is to contact one of the  women listed in how to contaact file

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/7%20Help%20with%20Mineral%20Balancing/

 In any event you'll need to finalize what you are feeding and have water info.


I have to bow to those with hard water as to which system or way forward is best but might be worth talking to a professional as well to explain your concerns and explore best options.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

FACT: With knowledge of the nutrient profile of the forage and the animal's weight and level of work, one can supplement only what is needed to target nutritional needs.  See  Smithey and Gustafson, Nutrition Complexities and Mineral Profiles of Hay 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

image

Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

The ec irhorse.org website is complimentary to the Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance outreach group. Equine Cushing's Disease, also known ...

Preview by Yahoo

 







---In EquineCushings@..., <bmeyer@...> wrote :

Hi Nancy,
I never balanced feed before so pardon my beginner questions.
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Beverly%20Texas/


Re: Jasper trim ( laminitis or not??)

corrine haffner
 

Hi Lavinia 

Thank you very much for doing the mark ups,i see now how run forward the heels are. Think i'v got a vet who will do xrays,he sounds willing to work with me. Problem is he's quite far away,but is willing to come out, farm call would be pretty pricey as in 200$. 

I'am thinking i need to start doing my own trimming here, did some here a few week ago,haven't been able to do any more recently. No i wouldn't go digging into sole to create concavity i know better then that,if anything i figure less is better, can always do more later.

Right now have to get him through his current issues,trimming will have to wait he's to sore rocking back on hindquarter and just very uncomfortable. Checked hoofs early this  morning no heat no pulse so don't think its laminitis or is it???  Should have the supplement Dr Kellon told me to get on monday,so will start him on that right away. 

Thanks again,
Corrine and Jasper
in Minnesota  4/2014


Re: Appropriate timing of Pergolide dose reduction??

Nancy C
 

Hi Denise

Not everyone reduces pergolide during the summer.  Whether you do so or not will depend on your Case History and needs to be done very carefully. Age, previous issues, etc., will play a role. The disease can progress in some horses where they need the same dose all year long.  Do you have a CH?

Ideally testing ACTH to make sure you are still in control in the spring is recommended and certainly testing in late summer to make sure you are controlled going into seasonal rise.  An understanding of symptoms and an eagle are also important, as well as making sure your vet is on board with this.

More info on seasonal rise at ecirhrose.org and in this doc on weaning post seasonal rise.

Equine Cushings and Insulin Resistance

 

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Invest in the health of your horse and help ECIR Group nonprofit at the same time! Hear Drs Kellon, Bowker and more, in eight hours of great info and informative Q&A from 2013 NO Laminitis! Conference.

http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/conference-proceedings-recordings



---In EquineCushings@..., <petersdeni@...> wrote :

Hi Group,


I live in MN and this is my first season of knowing I had a horse with PPID.  He's on 3.5 mg dose of compounded Pergolide.  I understand people usually taper back the dose during the spring time and then bring it back up again in late summer.  




Re: mineral question

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Kathy,

If you are using individual ingredients to balance to a hay analysis, Uckele has poly copper and poly zinc available in pelleted form:

http://equine.uckele.com/single-ingredients?p=1

Don't know of a pelleted magnesium.

If you are looking for a ready-made product to balance your hay, that becomes more difficult as no one product can really balance all hay. We need to know more about your specific circumstances to be able to assist better.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team



Re: High Ca Hay

Nancy C
 

Hi Sharon

I will bow to Dr Kellon on this if I am incorrect b/c I know you have other issues going on, but NRC ratios are up to 6:1 for CA:Phos before adult horses get into issues.  Dr Kellon recommends 2:1 as optimal.  I would say your 2.5:1 is okay and will carry you through to your new crop of hay.

In looking at your CH, I'd be most worried about his insulin and BCS of 8. Did not see his height listed but may have missed it.

I think I remember Dr Kellon recommending getting ACTH done at Cornell.  I know you've had major weather issues so probably have not been able to get there yet.  Just wanted to offer support for getting that done when you can.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Invest in the health of your horse and help ECIR Group nonprofit at the same time! Hear Drs Kellon, Bowker and more, in eight hours of great info and informative Q&A from 2013 NO Laminitis! Conference.

Conference Proceedings & Recordings

 








---In EquineCushings@..., <partnernaturally@...> wrote :


As I am sure you all know horses don't like the Phosphorus. With that said I just want to make sure I am doing the right thing. I don't want to cause bone issues.

Thanks

Sharon & Blaze

East TN

C/IR 05

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Sharon%20and%20BLAZE/





Jasper trim

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Corinne,

I've added a few mark-ups to Jasper's album:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1622081710

I know you were debating whether you were going to start doing his trimming yourself again or whether to stay with your current hoof care person. Although the xrays are from last April, at that time there didn't appear to be much if any sinking but the toes were too long and there was some excess amount of hoof overall. The latest pictures show even more excess hoof amount. That is a bonus in one respect as it gives you enough hoof to make corrections in a fairly straight forward way. Without current xrays, the one thing to keep in mind is that it is possible there may be some distal descent since the last time because he has been laminitic since then.

There appears to be too much foot overall. The LF is slightly more upright than the RF, which goes along with the configuration that was present in the 4/2014 xrays. Both fronts have coronary bands which are virtually ground parallel, which means the heels are much too high and the toes are still too far out in front of where they should be. This will become more obvious when the heels get lowered. Heels are also underrun, with the tip of the frog being stretched forward of its true position and buried in excess exfoliating dead sole material.

RF lateral: I added one to give you and idea of what the hoof should look like once the needed changes have been implemented. The pic with the green line gives you and idea of what needs to be removed, with more coming off the heels than in the front half of the foot.

RF/LF sole: Orange is where the heel buttresses should be, even with the widest part of the frog and with each other. Yellow is where they are now. The green arc is where to back the toe to - everything beyond this line should be removed. Purple highlights the flares in the walls, partly due to the heels migrating forward and pushing everyhting else out of their way. Should bevel these to help redirect shearing forces and allow them to grow in with tighter connections. Red chevron is approximately where the true tip of the frog is. There appears to be little to no sole depth. Whether this is just due to there being an excessive amount of dead sole compressed and trapped or whether there is an element of sinking involved is an unknown at this point. I wouldn't recommend doing any extensive digging around or slicing of the sole material to create concavity. Finding the live sole plane and trimming to it would be the goal. Once the vet issues have been sorted out, geting a new set of xrays would be a good idea.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team






Re: mineral question

Nancy C
 

HI Kathy

There are a couple of good commercial Copper and Zinc products that do not add iron or manganese. Whether they match you hay or not you won't know unless you test.  Have you done that?  Do you have a case history?

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

FACT: With knowledge of the nutrient profile of the forage and the animal's weight and level of work, one can supplement only what is needed to target nutritional needs.  See  Smithey and Gustafson, Nutrition Complexities and Mineral Profiles of Hay 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 






Kathy
From CT
joined Feb 2015


Re: PPID 11 year old gelding with lyme dease Off doxycyline( Colicky trouble still )

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Corinne,

Good that he is drinking. Keep getting the warm water to him as much as possible. It could be a combination of things that are basically making him feel crappy and that's why he's shaking. If the pain in his feet is enough that he is rocking his weight back onto his hind feet then he could be shaking because his muscles are just tired from holding that position. Will he lie down to rest?

Know how difficult it is to see them in pain - rips your heart out. Take time to breath - you are doing everything you can and he knows that.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


Re: calcium in hard water

Nancy C
 

Hi Beverly

No worries Beverly, we've all been there.

For balancing, have three suggestions:

Years ago, a lot of members spent hours combing through the messages and NRC Nutrient Requirements of Horses to learn how to balance.  All that info is still there if you want to take the time to do the searching.

Dr Kellon's NRCPlus Course is worth the cost times ten.

Third option is to contact one of the  women listed in how to contaact file

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/7%20Help%20with%20Mineral%20Balancing/

 In any event you'll need to finalize what you are feeding and have water info.


I have to bow to those with hard water as to which system or way forward is best but might be worth talking to a professional as well to explain your concerns and explore best options.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

FACT: With knowledge of the nutrient profile of the forage and the animal's weight and level of work, one can supplement only what is needed to target nutritional needs.  See  Smithey and Gustafson, Nutrition Complexities and Mineral Profiles of Hay 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 








---In EquineCushings@..., <bmeyer@...> wrote :

Hi Nancy,
I never balanced feed before so pardon my beginner questions.
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Beverly%20Texas/


mineral question

Kayel Cee-Bee
 

kayelceebeeToday at 8:24 AM
Hi .. I am looking for input on mineral products used. Besides buying zinc and copper that I have to weight, are there any other easier but good choices out there? In addition, is powder form the only choice for magnesium zinc and copper?

Kathy
From CT
joined Feb 2015


mineral

Kayel Cee-Bee
 

Hi .. I am looking for input on mineral products used. Besides buying zinc and copper that I have to weight, are there any other easier but good choices out there? In addition, is powder form the only choice for magnesium zinc and copper?


High Ca Hay

Sharon Manning
 

A quick question about my high Calcium hay. See CH, link at the bottom.

I am feeding apx 24 lbs of this hay.

Hay  shows Ca at  .59 and at this feeding rate = 64 g per day needed.

The P is .15 = 16g per day needed. Requiring 9.6 P bring up to balance at 2/5:1

I have gone up to 2.5:1 because of the need for adding such a high amount of phosphorus.

I am very uncomfortable with this even tho I have been feeding it for several months and continue to fret and worry.  I need some input and support. It is the only low s/s hay I could find at the time and put that fact more important than the other numbers . I have no choice until new cuttings this year.

I am adding 36 g of a 26% phosphorus product to get that ratio. 

Ghezzz.........

As I am sure you all know horses don't like the Phosphorus. With that said I just want to make sure I am doing the right thing. I don't want to cause bone issues.

Thanks

Sharon & Blaze

East TN

C/IR 05

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Sharon%20and%20BLAZE/





Re: calcium in hard water

beverly meyer
 

Hi Nancy,
I never balanced feed before so pardon my beginner questions.
So we'd have to test Standlee Timothy even though I only use 3 cups a day? Couldn't we use historical averages to be close enough on that little amount temporarily?
Who do I contact to calculate ODTB + Timothy + hard water?
I'd spend the $400 for water testing if really needed and if a solution can be found. I'm not comfortable with adding water softening as it adds too much sodium/potassium, right?
If bottom line is reverse osmosis, maybe invest the money in the R.O. rather than the water test?
Thanks for sorting through this with me. I'm wondering what everyone else with super hard water is doing.
Beverly 6/14
Beverly Texas
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Beverly%20Texas/


Re: Aloe

lj friedman
 

So, my obsession with  adding aloe vera juice on a regular basis  will be lowered to only add it when stressful or ulcer potentially causing meds are added.  My quesiton.. can I  dump 1/2 cup of aloe vera juice in 2.5lbs of bp and my supps and the included extra water? or must it be given undiluted for it's effect?  lj friedman san diego nov 2014


Re: New to Group and need help to post

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Tara,

Thanks for getting the CH done for Elf (cute name). It helps us enormously when answering your questions. We ask that you include it in your signature when you post so we can find it easily. Here's the link:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Tara%20and%20Elf/

Unfortunately, many vets use Thyro-L as a treatment for IR. Although it may jump-start a slow metabolism temporarily, the body will just lower production to compensate. Primary hypothyroidism is quite rare in horses so if thyroid levels come in low it is usually secondary to diet imbalances and/or disease processes. Elf's severe IR is likely at least part of the reason so getting that under control, along with tight mineral balancing, will allow the thyroid to correct itself.

Great that you have made a mind change as ANY laminitis is to be avoided - it is just too painful to be allowed. The elevated insulin could be from the hay, cold weather will also play a part as does pasture. Sparse, dead grass can be exceptionally high in sugars as plants use sugar as anti-freeze in order to survive the winter. Time of cutting, weather conditions, rainfall, temperature, maturity level of the grass will all play a part in what the sugar levels are when the hay is cut. No way to know what it actually is without testing. First vs. second cut also doesn't tell you a thing - some of the highest s/s numbers I've had have come from first cut.

The amount of flax, which is high fat/calorie, that Elf is getting is high for a little guy -1 to  2oz would be sufficient for his needs. Looks like he's getting from 15.5 lbs to 19.5lbs of food daily. Again, excessive for a pony who should weigh less than 600lbs. Need to feed 1.5%-2% of his IDEAL bodyweight in total feed per day. Soaking the hay before feeding will help lower sugar up to 30%. The excess fat is metabolically active and increases the IR. Beet pulp has 1.5 times the calorie content of hay so cutting that amount down/out would help in the weight loss department. Don't want to starve him, esp when the weather is as cold as we've been having lately, so weighing his rations would make sense.Plus, ponies are prone to hyperlipedemia if fed too little so need to be careful. Jiaogulan is fine once active inflammation has stopped. Devil's claw is OK short term but not a substitute for removing the cause of the laminitis.

Posting hoof pix when you get a chance would be helpful, esp now that there has been an insult to them.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


Appropriate timing of Pergolide dose reduction??

petersdeni@...
 

Hi Group,


I live in MN and this is my first season of knowing I had a horse with PPID.  He's on 3.5 mg dose of compounded Pergolide.  I understand people usually taper back the dose during the spring time and then bring it back up again in late summer.  


Would this be the proper time to think about doing that?  


Is protocol to taper it back in .5mg increments about 2 weeks apart?  


How much do I reduce the dose?


Anything else I'm missing or don't know?  Oh, when do I re-test ACTH?


Thank you!


Sincerely,

Denise Peterson

Shalimar - MN

NRCPlus 1210



Re: IR vs Cushings symptoms

Nancy C
 

Hi Deborah.

Looking forward to Dr Kellon's comments, but had to laugh at your vet.

To me goopy eyes is reaction to sensitivity because the hormonal feed back loop and immune system are out of whack when PPID/IR are not controlled.  Kinda like reaction to other allergies.

Here's a couple of messages that might help

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/131583

In the above message Dr Kellon says

However, a horse with a perfectly normal immune system may have goopy
eyes if the eyes are being constantly irritated by flies or dust,
mold spores, etc.. , and just having clear eyes doesn't mean the
immune system is up to par. In other words, it can be an indicator
but it's not enough to diagnose anything one way or the other.

From several thousand cases we've seen goopy eyes clear up on many when diagnosed and cleared up when the correct diagnosis is addressed correctly. (That's not a typo.  I meant to say that.)

Because the diseases can overlap, the symptoms can as well. 

Check the new Case History form for more ideas about symptoms.

 

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Invest in the health of your horse and help ECIR Group nonprofit at the same time! Hear Drs Kellon, Bowker and more, in eight hours of great info and informative Q&A from 2013 NO Laminitis! Conference.

Conference Proceedings & Recordings

 




 




---In EquineCushings@..., <layzd@...> wrote :

I'm trying to find a complete list of physical symptom of IR and PPID.


IR vs Cushings symptoms

 

I'm trying to find a complete list of physical symptom of IR and PPID.  I have found some symptoms on the website but it does not appear to be complete as it does not mention the goopy eyes and excessively dirty or slimy sheath.   I get confused on these symptoms as to whether they are associated with IR or PPID. 


Also in discussion with one of the area vets, I said I thought the goopy eyes was associated with uncontrolled PPID as I usually see it in client horses in the fall seasonal spike.  She asked the physiological connection and I did not have an answer at the time.  I looked up some posts here and found this comment: "Dr. Kellon mentioned that goopy eyes are a symptom of a weak immune system."  I email her some information including this comment and her reply was "That is a lot of rationalization in my opinion....".     I am not sure how to respond. 


I am trying to stay educated on these conditions.  Right now I do not have PPID horses here at the rescue.  I have had in the past.  I do have an IR horse and many of my hoof care clients are IR. 

Thank you for any advice. 


Debora

Montana

Joined a few year ago.


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