Date   

Re: PPID 11 year old gelding with lyme dease Off doxycyline( Colicky trouble still )

corrine haffner
 

Hi Mandy

He's has on two blankets as of this morning added a medium weight under his heavy weight,the heavy weight is 400grams fiber fill. I didn't put he has wool socks on along with pads,legs are bandaged to help hold up the wool socks.  Sorry i'm leaving out info here have alot to remember,all under stress.

Also been taking him warm water to drink,gulped down a 5 gallon bucket this morning.He feels warm under his blankets so not sure whats going on??,he's still shaking. He's been sore footed now for going on a week maybe a bit longer. Not sure he laminatic no heat in hoofs no digital pulse,unless you can have laminitis without those signs??

Yes i'm doing what Dr kellon has said,i want jasper better here. Yes i have a case history filled out was updated here not to long ago. He does have issue with ulcers also, and is currently having issues. Haven't given any bute or banamine just thought i'd ask. 

I'll be getting the supplement Dr kellon said he needs. Just need ideas on how to get him more comfortable in the mean time. What i'v done so far seems to have helped very little,so i feel like i failing him,makes me heart broken to see him in such pain:(   Need more info let me know.

Corrine and Jasper
in Minnesota  4-2014



Re: Aloe

Dee Kenville <ndeewoods@...>
 

I feed 1/2 cup Aloe daily as top dressing on "grain (whatever I am giving to get supplements in)" to my ulcer prone mare.  And I give aloe if I am giving meds that could cause ulcers. 
Dee in Santa Cruz, CA


Re: Teshan's new routine

Nancy C
 

Hi Kim

Keeping records is hard but oh so valuable.  It's why ECIR Group has always asked for such detail.  To pull apart confounding factors.

You've got your mind set on yor course of actio so this next part is for folks new to ECIR Group wrt your situation.  We have a lot of new people struggling to support and rehab their PPID/IR horses. Want them to be clear about recommendations and back up research and experience from this group.

Being in the southern hemisphere, you are at the end of summer, approaching fall.  A horse with an ACTH at 171 like Teshan has, with a history that Teshan has, is at high risk of the complications of fall laminitis. If ACTH is not brought under control now, you will continue to play catch up through out the season.  There's much history here to support the recs you have received, alerting you to how unlikely it is that you can control ACTH and PPID on your present regime of pergolide every other day, which you say she does not eat reliably in food and Chaste Tree Berry.

You have not tested her for IR. She is an Arab cross and is very likely so at baseline.  She should not be on any grass.

Balanced minerals play a huge role in Insulin Resistance.  That info is also in the Proceedings.

In addition, Keshan appears to have had mulitple mare issues. Mares can have issues that drive uncontrolled IR.  Please read Dr Kellon's proceeding on Mares and IR found at ecirhorse.org. at the link below my signature. Keshan has many of the symptoms.  Testing would easily rule this out.

At minimum you should test her for ACTH, Insulin and Glucose to determine adequate control as you approach the equinox.  Nothing is worth the pain of laminitis. More info about seasonal rise at ecirhorse.org

http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/cushing-s-disease/seasonal-rise

 



Proceedings are free at link below my signture.

Best hopes for Keshan.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
FACT: Some mares are refractory to good control of IR by the usual diet measures.  See  E. M. Kellon, VMD, Mineral Nutrition and Insulin Resistance, 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 



---In EquineCushings@..., <kleonaptra@...> wrote :


I will get some close up pics of her soon

K

Western Sydney NSW Australia

Teshan 3/2/2015

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Kim%20and%20Teshan/


 


Re: Aloe

Nancy C
 

Hi lj

Most horses don't need aloe as Dr Ekllon has stated. In times of stress, ie, laminitis, other sickness, heavy work, extreme weather, I have used aloe prophylactically for a period of time.  Only need 1/4 cup in food for 1000 lb horse.  I get organic gallons at Walmart for $9.00

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
FACT: Analysis by the ECIR Group of the seasonal pattern of laminitis cases and the naturally occurring levels of fructan in grasses, has shown Fructan to be highly unlikely as the cause for laminitis. See  E. M. Kellon, VMD, The Internet as an Epidemiological Tool, 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 






Re: calcium in hard water

Nancy C
 

Not tricky really, just different than perhaps what you are used to.

There are two issues here,: making sure fundamental needs are met and not exceeded by knowing the total amount of a given mineral in the diet and balancing the major and trace minerals to manage excesses and deficiencies.

I'll stick my neck out and say  it is unlikely you  are in toxic level from too much calcium but you are most likely unbalanced given the  changes you have been going through with your diet.

The only way to know is to test.  I don't think you are on city water, but if so, they may have info for you from their testing.

You could investigate a filtration system to soften the water.  Unless you are back on all ODTB Cubes, rest of your diet still needs balancing.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

FACT: Minerals have direct effect on Insulin Resistance (IR) or its consequences. See  E. M. Kellon, VMD, Mineral Nutrition and Insulin Resistance, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 






---In EquineCushings@..., <bmeyer@...> wrote :


Re: PPID 11 year old gelding with lyme dease Off doxycyline( Colicky trouble still )

Mandy Woods
 

Hi Corrine,
I just read your note and what  strikes me is Jasper is COLD.   You say he shakes.   I think of uncontrolled hypothermia.    Warm him up and see if you don’t see improvement.   Start with wool socks inside his rx.  Wool because it breathes and retains heat.   Polo wrap the ankle and up to the knee over the socks so they don’t slide down.  Sprinkle lots of Gold Bond foot powder in the boots to help with any moisture.  
 
He may need more than one blanket on him at a time.   Or add a cotton sheet under his blanket.  One winter I took a blanket off my bed to add to a mare’s comfort.  She finally stopped stall walking and letting her self out because she was cold! 
 
And my personal favorite ~ taught to me by my Haflinger mare who you’d think could handle cold VA winters ~~ serve HOT water!    I used to carry hot water to top off stall buckets that had ice in them......well this mare dove into the bucket and drank the entire amount because she needed hot water.   Try it.  It wont hurt!  It might help!!!
 
I don’t know how long your horse has been laminitic but bute banamine are not generally recommended after the first week of dx.   Have you filled out a Case History so we can see  if the DDT/E’s are done?    Please sign off with your CH  link and date of joining. Follow Dr. Kellon’s instructions.      Lots to learn here but it can be done.
 
Mandy in VA
EC Primary Response
OCT 2003
 


Re: calcium in hard water

beverly meyer
 

Hi Nancy,
When a water analysis confirms high calcium, is the only way to "balance" it to just add more magnesium?  And maybe then be overdosing both?
Are there files on balancing food and water at the same time to get an overall accurate mineral picture?
I'd like to see if there even are corrective options before investing in a new water test.  How to remove a high mineral?  It's a tricky topic!
I feed ODTB, Timothy and BP.
Beverly 6/14
Beverly Texas
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Beverly%20Texas/


Re: PPID 11 year old gelding with lyme dease Off doxycyline( Colicky trouble still )

corrine haffner
 



---In EquineCushings@..., <sassafrass45@...> wrote :

Hi Dr Kellon, or anyone

The vet i'am dealing with is a small animal vet,he's kind enough to get the meds for me,doesn't really deal with horses though. So I'd say its safe to do as you said,because i don't have an equine vet as such.

So stop the U Guard altogether that's no problem he hates the stuff any way. Will get the Aloe vera juice this weekend. So also stop doxy for now? till i get the supplement made up and can do that for 3 days before starting him back on doxy. Then give it 30 minutes prior to giving doxy each time.

In the mean time what can i do to help jasper? with his very sore feet and being very stiff all over. He's not wanting to move much at all. He's booted with RX boots and gel pad inserts,blanketed and legs are also bandaged. He stands and just shakes i'm guessing its pain related? I'm guessing our sub zero temps aren't helping matter either. Can all over pain cause colicky type symptoms?? How do i help him through this??,when he's to sore to walk. Got more questions lots of them.

Do i dare give him bute or banamine to help ease his discomfort? I'm guessing not but still need to ask.

Thank you,
Corrine And Jasper
in Minnesota


Phytolean?

Charlotte B
 

Hello! I'm new to this group. I live in Sweden and got two mares, mother and daughter, who is IR for sure (not tested), deposits and probably light laminitis from time to time. After last laminitis reaction this winter on the oldest mare, when not getting rid of deposits even though I exercise them every day and have strict diet, I have now this product Phytolean Plus Phytolean Plus


Has anyone of you heard of this product? Happy for all experience and comments :)


Thank you for letting me join this group! :)


Charlotte, Sweden

Feb 15


Re: New to Group and need help to post

tara sullivan
 

Hi Lavinia, And thanks for the quick response.  I uploaded Elf's history.  You will see in the notes that I just realized a blood test done 7 yrs ago showed he was already IR.  My vet totally blew over it and just recommended thyrol-l....and I just  didn't catch it?!?  The good news is that I have always managed him as if he was indeed IR...with the one very important exception of not slimming him down.  I find that very hard-mostly from an emotional stand point for feeling sorry for him!  That is going to change!  Right now he is just a little foot sore. He has text book excellent feet and has been barefoot for 15 yrs.  His glucose is within normal but insulin and leptin are super elevated! It can only be the hay....?-I had to cut in the afternoon alot this year so the hay must be high sugar.  Also, with the extreme cold here in the NE...I have left him out 24/7 with my other horses.  They have a shed and heated water (my biggest concern). So he has been eating free choice hay and has actually lost some weight.  But, the numbers don't lie.  I have started stalling him at night to limit his consumption and feedonly 1st cutting during the day when he his out with the others.  I also started him on jiagulan and devil's claw (for pain).  He has improved already.  Please let me know what you think.
Thank you
TaraSullivanfrom NY 2015


Aloe

lj friedman
 

Many of the posts I've been reading contain notes about people using aloe vera with the horses. I was thinking of just adding a bunch of aloe vera juice prophylactically to my horses supplements in the beet pulp. I think I remember Dr. Kellon saying no need to add aloe juice unless A ulcer problem presents.  did I get that right?  My instincts tell me to add Aloe vera  juice, but of course my instincts are  not based on equine scienceLJ Friedman San Diego November 2014


Re: New to Group and need help to post

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Tara,

Welcome to the list. We know that we throw a lot of information at you but please believe it will get easier with time. In order to help you best we need you to fill out a case history for your pony on our sister site ECHistory8. I'll send you an invite to it so you can join easily. If you have any pressing questions for us before you have the case history form filled out please do not hesitate to ask.

We use a system nicknamed DDT/E, which is shorthand for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise. These are the four cornerstones of successfully managing your pony and any problems it may have.

DIAGNOSIS: Is done with blood work. We recommend having blood drawn to test for Insulin, Glucose, Leptin and ACTH and having the samples sent to Cornell as this is the lab we have found to have the most consistent results. ACTH is used to diagnose PPID (Cushings) while insulin, glucose and leptin are used to diagnose Insulin Resistance (IR). The samples should be drawn at home and NON-fasting as fasting will produce artificially low results and are a holdover from human testing protocols. A pony can be only IR, only PPID, neither or both. PPID is managed using meds while IR is managed thru diet.

DIET: Low sugar/starch/fat, forage based with minerals supplemented based on your forage analysis. Until you can have your hay tested, we recommend using the emergency diet you were sent when you joined. This is a safe, temporary way to feed that won't do any harm but will definitely help an IR/PPID equine. As important as what to feed is what NOT to feed. No grain, pasture, red/brown salt blocks, apples, carrots, sugary treats, alfalfa. Soaking untested hay for 30 minutes in hot water or 60 min in cold water then dumping the water where the pony can't get it will help remove up to 30% of the sugars and make it safer to feed. Should plan to feed 2% of ideal bodyweight in soaked hay per day, divided into 3-4 feedings. Small mesh hay nets are a great way to make the hay rations last longer. You can use a small amount of rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp as a carrier for the emergency diet (ED) items of salt, vit E gelcaps with oil in them, ground flax and magnesium. All of these ED items are available at Walmart or your local pharmacy/grocery store.

TRIM: Toes backed and heels low so that the hoof capsule tightly hugs and supports the internal structures. This is one of the most common "missing links" when soundness is an issue. We encourage you to post pictures of your pony in the PHOTOS section of ECHistory8 so that we can help make sure the trim is optimal. If there are any lameness issues, we recommend boots and pads for comfort.

EXERCISE: Best IR buster there is but never force a sore equine to move. Need to be especially careful if there  are any NSAID's being used as this will mask pain and encourage the equine to do too much too soon on compromised feet.

We ask that you sign your posts with your name, general location and year of joining. This helps us to give you ideas where to source items locally. Once you have your case history done we ask that you add the link to that to your signature as well so the volunteers can find your info easily.

Please ask any questions as they come up, we're here to help.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team






Teshan's new routine

kleonaptra@...
 

It seems no sooner do I upload a new case history (Ive now done 3) that I change things again. 

Teshan is let out of stable at 6am and allowed into the midyard (bout half acre to acre in size) which is LUSH. I only do this to try and control her boredom and stop her wrecking up the place. Between 11am and 12pm I put her back in stable yard (Half acre or less) which is almost bare. Between 12pm and 2pm I feed up and Teshan gets a small feed, probably less than 2kg total of oaten chaff, lucerene chaff and cool conditioner pellet. In her feed she gets vitex, 1ml pergolide,DCP, some equilibrium supplement and over the last two days extra magnesium and a little vit E because I saw this in the emergency diet. She used to get hay at this point but now she doesnt. At 4pm she is let out into stable yard before I go to work. When I get home at about 1130pm she gets her lucerne hay which has been soaked since before I left for work. She is confined to stable until 6am.


 The situation is complicated by her little granddaughter, who is 16 months old and after weaning bonded so strongly to Teshan that Teshan had to go to the Sydney International Equestrian Centre (SIEC) with her for her first show. Teshan decided she liked it there, kicked her way out of the float, and took off up the cross country course. Then her knees blew up, she had to angle load and take 10ml bute to get home, so River and I waited at SIEC for hours and River ended up travelling by herself anyway! So anywhere Teshan goes River goes....


I might have a small window tomorrow to do some spraying in the midyard. Once I kill off some of the weeds and grass I wont have to confine her so much. My grass is just poison at this time of year, so lucky the back paddock is bare and Im not having any dramas with the stallion. I might have to do a soil test. 


I will get some close up pics of her soon

K

Western Sydney NSW Australia

Teshan 3/2/2015

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Kim%20and%20Teshan/



New to Group and need help to post

tara sullivan
 

Hello All, My name is Tara and I am new to the group and, of course, need some help with a pony.  Please advise....the amount of material is quite intimidating.  I read the Start Here file...so need to post pony history??  Thanks,
Tara 2015
New York



Re: PPID 11 year old gelding with lyme dease on doxycyline( colicking trouble )

hawkhilldeb@...
 

" need idea for making syringing meds in less of a hassle"

Corinne, I have used Phyto-quench to syringe in some pretty foul meds.  I mix it with about 20 ccs of water or aloe juice and use a 60 cc catheter syringe.  It smells terrible but Cory loves it.  Don't know if he is an anomaly, but it seems to cover up most anything you want to put in it.

Deb and Cory in NC
July 2012
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/files/Deb%20Funderburk%20in%20NC/
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory5/photos/albums/1275105710

 


Re: PPID 11 year old gelding with lyme dease on doxycyline( colicking trouble )

corrine haffner
 

Hi Dr Kellon

The vet i'am dealing with is a small animal vet,he's kind enough to get the meds for me,doesn't really deal with horses though. So I'd say its safe to do as you said,because i don't have an equine vet as such.

So stop the U Guard altogether that's no problem he hates the stuff any way. Will get the Aloe vera juice this weekend. So also stop doxy for now? till i get the supplement made up and can do that for 3 days before starting him back on doxy. Then give it 30 minutes prior to giving doxy each time.

In the mean time what can i do to help jasper with his very sore feet and being very stiff all over. He's not wanting to move much at all. He's booted with RX boots and gel pad inserts,blanketed and legs are also bandaged. He stands and just shakes i'm guessing its pain related? I'm guessing our sub zero temps aren't helping matter either.

Do i dare give him bute or banamine to help ease his discomfort? I'm guessing not but still need to ask.

Thank you,
Corrine And Jasper
in Minnesota


Re: PPID 11 year old gelding with lyme dease on doxycyline( colicking trouble )

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 




---In EquineCushings@..., <shilohmom@...> wrote :

Jasper wasn't eating well before the doxy so likely it is more aggravating on an empty stomach, hence the colic symptoms.
= = = = = = = = = =

The timing of his distress points to a gastric irritation from the doxy.  I agree that this is likely occurring because he already had a gastritis or gastric ulcers so was more sensitive.  Another problem could be the U Gard.  Doxy does not dissolve properly when the stomach acid is neutralized.  Even small amounts of an antacid can cause problems.  (Lavinia has actually experienced this with one of her horses with an inappropriately compounded form of doxy.)

I agree that your horse likely needs further treatment for Lyme, but this reaction is not acceptable.  Any change in the treatment plan must be approved by your own vet but this is what I would suggest.

Stop the U Gard for now.  Get a dose syringe from a local farm store. These are typically about 60 cc and have a long, wide tip.  Buy aloe vera juice (Walmart has this in their pharmacy section).  Send an e-mail to r.hasse@... (Rachel Hasse) and request a custom blend of 3000 mg Jiaogulan and 10 grams L-glutamine per dose, to be given two doses per day.  Mix that supplement into 2 oz of aloe vera juice and give 20 minutes before you dose with doxycycline.  Give the supplement and aloe for 3 days before you resume dosing with the doxy.

After grinding up your doxycycline pills in a coffee grinder, wet them with 1 oz of apple cider vinegar then add 1 oz of water and use this mixture to give by dose syringe 30 minutes after the above supplements.

If you have any dairy farms in your area you could also benefit by asking them if they will sell you colostrum.  Colostrum has tremendous healing, immune supporting and regulating properties.  If you can get it, give him 200 cc/day.

The aloe, L-glutamine and Jiaogulan have antiinflammatory properties, including specifically preventing ulcer formation but will also help support the body's ability to mount anti-inflammatory reactions.  Your horse is suffering from a systemic inflammatory reaction right now, sometimes described as "cytokine soup".  If there is active infection still present, only antibiotics to attack that can stop the process but there are also things to help the immune system control this response and minimize tissue damage.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: PPID 11 year old gelding with lyme dease on doxycyline( colicking trouble )

corrine haffner
 

Hi Lavinia

OOPS, got that wrong on doxy,so 54 100 mg pill twice a day. Sorry i'm having a hard time,i way miss read your post on the dosing. I'll do 54 pills tonight then.He wasn't eating well before the doxy started.


Thanks,
Corrine and Jasper
in Minnesota


Re: calcium in hard water

Nancy C
 

Those of us with water concerns have a complete test and then include results when calculating total dietary intake. Hard water should be considered in a complete diet analysis.  Knowing iron content and pH is always good too.

What you might need to do to balance will also depend on Magnesium, if any, and what you are feeding.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/115292

http://ianrpubs.unl.edu/live/g1274/build/g1274.pdf

 

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
check - FACT: The VA Polytechnic Pony Study is the only study to look at IR and laminitis under natural conditions. See  E. M. Kellon, VMD, Diagnosis of Insulin Resistance and PPID, 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 



 




---In EquineCushings@..., <bmeyer@...> wrote :

Central Texas depends on limestone aquifers (calcium carbonate). I run
very hard at about 10.5 to 12 gpg (grains per gallon).
Everything here spots white from the calcium - the house wall


Re: PPID 11 year old gelding with lyme dease on doxycyline( colicking trouble )

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Corinne,

The correct dose of doxy is (54) 100mg capsules each time, 2 times per day, not 54 caps split between two doses.

Jasper wasn't eating well before the doxy so likely it is more aggravating on an empty stomach, hence the colic symptoms. Although not the best thing, I would be inclined to stop the doxy until you can get him eating properly again. Hoping Dr. Kellon can chime in here.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team

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