Date   

Ontario/Triple Crown Timothy Balance Cubes

Jean Testa-Davis <jtestadavis@...>
 

Hello:
I am located near Terre Haute, IN and am having difficulty finding the balance cubes.  Is there anyone in the group from IN or east central IL that knows of any store carrying the product?

Thank you
Jean and Bubba (my 2nd Cushing Horse.....30yr)


Re: Questions

Maryanne Corsi
 

Hi. I didn't get an invite to join ECHistory8. Truthfully, I hesitate to join because I see the problems everyone has with Neo and I am not computer savvy in the least nor do I have that much time to try and figure it out. It seems extremely time consuming and complicated to me. I have no problem giving you the info on my horses however. I can never access links etc or my Yahoo account for that matter. Maybe I need to start the entire process over again? 
Regards,
Maryanne Corsi

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 20, 2015, at 6:43 AM, ThePitchforkPrincess@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:

 

Hi (name?)

We'd love to have your information on your horses!  Your case histories will be both an great record for your horse's care and greatly improve the quality and timeliness of answers you get from the volunteers if you should ever need help.  

I have sent you an invite to join ECHistory8.  When you are accepted you will be emailed all instructions and the form to fill out.
If you have any questions at any time about your case history or folder, don't hesitate to ask.  You can ask in these messages or email me privately at ECIR.Archives (at) gmail (dot) com.

Also in case you need them, documents containing information on how to make signatures for posting in the group are located here 

Looking forward to seeing your horses' information 

-LeeAnne, Newmarket, Ontario

ECIR Archivist 03/2004

ECIR Files Table of Contents


Taken For Granite Art - Lightweight Cement Sculpture and Memorials




Re: Questions

ThePitchforkPrincess@...
 

Hi (name?)
We'd love to have your information on your horses!  Your case histories will be both an great record for your horse's care and greatly improve the quality and timeliness of answers you get from the volunteers if you should ever need help.  

I have sent you an invite to join ECHistory8.  When you are accepted you will be emailed all instructions and the form to fill out.
If you have any questions at any time about your case history or folder, don't hesitate to ask.  You can ask in these messages or email me privately at ECIR.Archives (at) gmail (dot) com.

Also in case you need them, documents containing information on how to make signatures for posting in the group are located here 

Looking forward to seeing your horses' information 

-LeeAnne, Newmarket, Ontario

ECIR Archivist 03/2004

ECIR Files Table of Contents


Taken For Granite Art - Lightweight Cement Sculpture and Memorials




best price on prascend?

lj friedman
 

It looks like the best price on prascend is  US $ 1.75 for a 1 mg tablet when buying 160(websites).  Anyone know of any lower prices. Since I live close to Mexico. ( san diego) I was wondering if the price is lower in Mexico, but I could get no help from any local equine pharmacies in Tijuana.  anyone know if the price is lower in different countries, like Mexico?   lj friedman san diego nov 2014. 


Re: Refusing Beet pulp

Michele Cameron
 

Hi Merle,
 regarding your horse not liking beet pulp.... I tried adding just soaked ODTC to it, but my mustang prefers that I just smash up the ODTC and mix it in dry (with the soaked Cubes & BP).... I also layer the bottom of the bucket with some smashed cubes and a little TC-lite... that way when he gets to the bottom any mineral/BP/Soaked cube mix left is mixed in with his favorite tastes. Kind of a pain and an extra bucket to rinse, as I dump the wet mix onto pf the dry in a separate bucket,... but with just 1 picky horse, it is worth it.... IF there is anything left in the bottom, I add another handful of TC-Lite to it, spritz it with water, leave it a few minutes and then he will lick the bucket clean. I am only feeding about 1/2 # of TC-lite that way. In total I feed him 1/2# R/S/R BP, 1/2 # (dry weight) soaked ODTBC, 1/2 # dry/smashed ODTBC & 1/2 # or less TC-lite with 1 cup custom mineral mix.... My mineral mix doesn't require Phosphorous though, so I don't need to cover up much icky taste... Once he is finished his morning bucket, I wait and hour and start him on his 25#'s of hay nets.... Good Luck!
Michele Cameron & Elijah Mustang, Everson,Wa Jan 20-15


Re: New test results on IR, PPID 11 year old gelding

corrine haffner
 

Hi Eva 

The 600$ vet bill was not for re testing jasper it was on my sick cat. I didn't pay for the retesting vet did it for no charge,i owe him nothing all bills are payed in full.  
I have the pergolide re filled by my small animal vet so were good there,he will also do the testing for me come march. Vet that quit me i knew it was coming was only a matter of time, our relationship was rocky at best. 
He was new to dealing with IR & PPID and had a big ego to boot,so i lived and learned it cost me $$$.

Go to post 192199 to find out whats going on with jasper right now,there are other post before that don't have the numbers though,they tell all that's happening.

With the help of the group i know we can get through our rough times,that's why i'am on here:)

Thank you,
Corrine and Jasper
in Minnesota


Re: New test results on IR, PPID 11 year old gelding

gentpony
 

Hi Corrine,

Sorry you are having such a ‘challenging’ time.   I expect these statements all refer to the same vet:

>unexpected 600 dollar vet bill

> I called my vet to find out how blood work was handled, and he pretty much sent it in as it was. So wasn't cooled or centrifuge, then asked he he would be willing to re test following the groups protocols for testing, said find a new vet. Trying to get hard copy of last test he wont return my calls, so i'am beyond frustrated with this whole thing.

> yes the vet totally threw me under the bus on this, will not give me another re fill on pergolide either

> Have enough pergolide for 2 weeks then i'am out

 

You should not be expected to pay for bloodwork that was performed incorrectly.  The protocol for testing ACTH, insulin or glucose is not something that the ecir group has fabricated.  It is a standard laboratory protocol that all labs require for accurate and reproducible results. 

 

If a vet is not familiar with the protocols for any lab test, as a professional, they are required to find out what these are.  Not to do so could be either incompetence or professional misconduct. 

 

The usual course of action would be for the vet to repeat the tests without charge.

For you to be sent a bill for these tests performed while ignoring correct test protocol, might likely be deemed another act of misconduct.  If no other veterinary services were performed that day, that would also include the farm call, shipping the sample, etc.

 

For a Cushings’s horse, Pergolide is absolutely necessary to control irreversible life threatening symptoms.  This medication should not be withheld for any reason.  For this vet to refuse to prescribe this medication for a short while until another vet can be found is simply outrageous, since from what you have told us, there appears to be no good reason for him to do so.  I would count this as another strike for professional misconduct.

   

If you are in bind for the prescription, talk to your pharmacy.  Explain that pergolide is a life-saving medication that Jasper cannot be without, and you are working on finding another vet.  Ask if they would provide another month’s emergency supply, and tell them you will have the new vet cover that with a new presciption later.

 

 

Since this vet has abruptly ended the professional relationship, if this was me, I’d be sending him letter stating that I will not be paying any fees for incorrect/incompetent lab testing for all the above reasons. I’d also mention that should he decide to send any further bill or notice for these services, I would be forwarding a copy of this letter to the state veterinary licensing board for their comment and  definitions of incompetence and professional misconduct.

 

Eva

SW Ontario,  March 2005

 


insulin in PPID

Casey and Don James <macivor@...>
 

Thanks, Nancy for your very helpful information regarding evaluating insulin/blood sugar.  This group is the BEST!!
 
casey
oregon 2015


Re: grain question

Nancy C
 

Hi rj and Darlene

Welcome to the group.

You'll get a formal welcome shortly but wanted to address this.

rj - It depends but I would say Nutrena is not the best choice and five pounds is a lot even for a 1000 lb horse.. Muscle wasting is very common with uncontrolled PPID.  Will be helpful to know where you are located.


Darlene

Need to know more about your horse.  See message above re uncontrolled PPID.  If you  horse is also IR, fat will worsen that condition.  Would love to hear how hi kidney function was diagnosed. If you need to worry about protein the first place to start is to check your hay.

As I said you'll hear more from Mandy or Maddie or Lavinia so hope you can hold on. 


Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
FACT: Minerals have direct effect on Insulin Resistance (IR) or its consequences. See  E. M. Kellon, VMD, Mineral Nutrition and Insulin Resistance, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 







---In EquineCushings@..., <mywisky@...> wrote :

I too am dealing with significant muscle loss.


Re: Fw: insulin in PPID

Nancy C
 

Hi Casey

Not sure I can handle your questions but will do my best. My brain is cloudy on a regular basis. Might want to look at the Virginia Poly Tech pony study in the files. 

In the message archives you will find examples of Dr Kellon pointing to 102 or 103 for glucose as normal.  Here's an excerpt from

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/187728

 

When not fasted, glucose and insulin reflect the glycemic index of the diet.  Hays and plain beet pulp produce the lowest response. Our observations over the years are that 10% or lower combined starch and sugar works clinically. A published study suggests WSC + starch less than 15% best for EPSM horses to avoid glucose spikes. Most useful of all though is the data from the Va Polytechnic pony field study.

They followed 160 ponies on pasture, 55 of which fit the IR profile and had prior history of laminitis. When tested on dormant pasture in March, NO FASTING, the insulin in normal ponies averaged 10.7 and in IR 21.6.  Glucose in both groups was in the 90s and not significantly different.  In May, when tested on pastures that produced laminitis in 11 horses, NO FASTING, the normal group averaged 12, IR 21.7 while the clinically laminitic ponies averaged 103.7.  Glucoses did not differ except for two actively laminitic ponies that had high glucose.

Need also to take all the proxies developed from the above study into consideration. You have probably already done this but just in case, you can use the proxies at IR Calculator

 

So teh above tells me that in horses who are not frankly diabetic, you might see swings in insulin perhaps, but not glucose regardless of what they are eating at the time.

If you plug the normal horse examples you have quoted into the above, you will get "normal, not ir".  This horse was on pasture at the time of the blood draw.

For more about the various tests, the VA Tech Prxies, chekc out Dr Kellon's 2103 No Lamintis! Proceeding on Diagnosis of IR and PPID a the link below my sig.

Hope this helps.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Invest in the health of your horse and help ECIR Group nonprofit at the same time! Hear Drs Kellon, Bowker and more, in eight hours of great info and informative Q&A from 2013 NO Laminitis! Conference.

Conference Proceedings & Recordings

 








---In EquineCushings@..., <macivor@...> wrote :

 
The 11/2/2011 labs, posted 11/13/2011 by briarskigtonnet (What Normal Blood Work Looks Like) report a  87 glucose and 9.97 insulin.   The IR calculator = 8.73 ratio which would mean the horse is compensated IR?  Are horses in pasture, which would not be low s/s more likely to have a G:I ratio of <10.  And, if so, would horses in pasture be considered to have compensated IR?
 
Thanks for helping my cloudy brain!!
 
casey
Oregon 2015


Re: sue & princess

sue wolf <wolffarm4@...>
 

Hi Lavinia,
    thank you.. I did trim princess hoofs as you can see in the photos. she is standing with her feet under her most of the time. she seems to have then in front of her when she gets up and just a little  sometimes during the day..  she is assessing so bad and its 5 out and everything is freezing so fast so I cant soak her hoof or nothing.. she has winter socks on and her easy boots on with warm shipping boots on that bell out and cover her hoofs.. not sure if there's anything else I can do.. I am giving her this stuff from dr Fleming, equine center in Florida. for founder. it seems to help? I think.. the bad trims for so long really messed her hoofs up...  but when she moves she likes to step backwards  to move to her feed tub.. when she goes forward she tries to step forward but then tucks her back under  her and then steps so her backend is holding a lot of the weight..
thanks sue & princess
oh 6/11


On Thursday, February 19, 2015 12:57 AM, "shilohmom@... [EquineCushings]" wrote:


 
Hi Sue,

As Linda has worked with you on Princess quite a bit she is going to answer and do some mark-ups for you on ECHoof as she is having access problems here.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team





Re: grain question

mywisky@...
 

I too am dealing with significant muscle loss. First feed I could find was Nutrena Safe Choice Original (controlled starch) to start switching him over from his org. mill mix (haven't gotten there yet) also am feeding their Empower Boost for fat. Haven't seen any improvement but am also dealing with very bad kidney function so, he's on 1 Prascend ( 8 days now) trying to find a balance for weight gain & low protein levels because of the kidney issue, haven't gotten there yet. Am too looking for the magic formula to feed that he will eat.
Darlene/Pa.
2/2015


Two Geldings with Cushings

ahorn555@...
 

I would like to add two case histories.  I have a good vet who is working with both horses on their Cushings.  I read these posts all the time, but can't find the one regarding how to give a case history.

My horses are 21 and 11 this April, both of them.  Both have cushings.  Recently the vet sent their samples to the lab, and they used a new lab on him, and so the results came back using different norms.  They put my older horse in a normal range with an 8.7,  and their range was 2-10.  Although we don't believe he's normal, because he started last May with a 214.40 pg/ml.   we got it lowered in december to 124.40,  both of which are still really high, and are working with diet and was given pergolide.  Recently we went to Prascend and then tested, and they used a different lab, with the result being 8.7.  SO it is difficult to compare results.

I have a lot of information that I would share with the group.  From his dermatitis caused by bacteria infection, to his exrays on his feet, to testing that was done for me by Defiance Sound Senior Starch feed supplement, which we found out is better than WellSolve LS, lower in all sugars, etc.  

Also since my other horse is young,  we found his cushings because I noticed a coat pattern on his neck.  He is red sorrel, I've seen it on other horses for sale and now I know it is indicative of cushings for them.
He's test were originally 32.74pg/ml, and it went up in december to 41.42.  He is also now on prascend.  we will have him tested again in March, and then we will deal with the new ranges from that lab. He also had the dermatits, and needed meds, but recovered more quickly since he is younger than Max.

I have learned a great deal from this site.and would share all my info, just can't seem to get to the case histories.  Thank you so very  much.



Re: Questions

ahorn555@...
 

I would like to add two case histories.  I have a good vet who is working with both horses on their Cushings.  I read these posts all the time, but can't find the one regarding how to give a case history.

My horses are 21 and 11 this April, both of them.  Both have cushings.  Recently the vet sent their samples to the lab, and they used a new lab on him, and so the results came back using different norms.  They put my older horse in a normal range with an 8.7,  and their range was 2-10.  Although we don't believe he's normal, because he started last May with a 214.40 pg/ml.   we got it lowered in december to 124.40,  both of which are still really high, and are working with diet and was given pergolide.  Recently we went to Prascend and then tested, and they used a different lab, with the result being 8.7.  SO it is difficult to compare results.

I have a lot of information that I would share with the group.  From his dermatitis caused by bacteria infection, to his exrays on his feet, to testing that was done for me by Defiance Sound Senior Starch feed supplement, which we found out is better than WellSolve LS, lower in all sugars, etc.  

Also since my other horse is young,  we found his cushings because I noticed a coat pattern on his neck.  He is red sorrel, I've seen it on other horses for sale and now I know it is indicative of cushings for them.
He's test were originally 32.74pg/ml, and it went up in december to 41.42.  He is also now on prascend.  we will have him tested again in March, and then we will deal with the new ranges from that lab. He also had the dermatits, and needed meds, but recovered more quickly since he is younger than Max.

I have learned a great deal from this site.and would share all my info, just can't seem to get to the case histories.  Thank you so very  much.


Re: New test results on IR, PPID 11 year old gelding

corrine haffner
 

Hi Jaini

The inserts i have are the gel pads,they aren't helping like i thought they should. Talked to my dog vet about doxy said he could get compounded doxy,would be cheaper then pills?? Not sure if i put this in case history but he has issues with antibiotic,his gastric ulcers flare up within days of starting antibiotics. Then he goes off feed,so would need something to buffer his stomach while on doxy.

I looked up the jiagulan and AAKG  i can order that here for him, if it will help him through this rough time he's having. Was very sore gimpy last night and still is this morning,its also very cold here 33 below zero, so sure that isn't helping him. 

I can get hoof pictures when it warmer then 33 below zero,not sure i can upload them or not,so might need to email them to someone who can.  Oh he's off feed some what started that last nigh,eats some hay wants nothing to do with pellets or supplements,syringed his pergolide down him this morning. Think i remembered everything.

Corrine and Jasper
in Minnesota



grain question

rjroberts0207@...
 

Has anyone ever fed Nutrena Senior feed to a Cushing horse? My vet said it is an OK choice for feed however after some reading on suggested feeds it sounds to me this is not recommended. I am feeding my mare 5 pounds of this per day. She has had significant muscle loss and has not responded to the 1mg of pergolide. We are now increasing her dose to 2mg/day.



Re: New test results on IR, PPID 11 year old gelding

janieclougher@...
 

Oh, and another thought:  gel inserts for the Rx hoof boots may help as well.

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC 09
ECIR mod/support
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/

 


Re: New test results on IR, PPID 11 year old gelding

janieclougher@...
 

Hi, Corrine - Thank heavens you have a good small animal vet, and can pull blood yourself.  Yahoooo! 

Now, the footsoreness: Continue with the IR diet; the hoof boots; the pergolide.  Lyme could well be raising its ugly head again.  If you had all the money in the world, I would for sure say get insulin, glucose, ACTH, leptin and Lyme multiplex.  However (and please, Dr. Kellon, check me on this) in the face of his sore feet I wonder about putting him on a month of oral doxycycline; plus jiagulan and AAKG for cold-induced laminitis:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/Jiaogulan%2C%20Nitric%20Oxide%20Support%2C%20AAKG%20%26%20Supps/

I can't remember if there are photos of Jasper's feet; there could be trim issues as well as everything else.

My gut feeling at the moment is saying: "Lyme!"  Plus or minus foot form.

Hang in there, Corrine - you can do this for Jasper.

Oh, PS - here is his case history link:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Corrine%20and%20Jasper/

 



Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC 09
ECIR mod/support
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/

 





What can be done to help jasper with being so sore footed? He's got on RX hoof boots with inserts and wool socks,but is still very sore.  He's on the IR diet has been and will continue with that. Also have his legs bandaged from below knees to cornet bands,when he leaves them on. The temps here are very cold high of only 6 below zero and going to be 18 below tonight,wind chills in the 35 below range.

Thank you so much for the help :)

Corrine and Jasper
 


hay net or slow feeder

lj friedman
 

Dr. Kellon suggests leaving hay for Jesse, who quids  and choked a few times.  I contacted jesse's vet who extracted 4 teeth  in November 2014 and prescribed his prascend. He suggests a small amount of fine stem grass hay like orchard or leafy alfalfa in a hay net.  A few questions? since Jesse is eating only mtn sunrise timothy pellets at this time. is  timothy considered a fine stem grass hay?  ( that would be great if it is as he is eating timothy now  ) and how much is a small amount for the hay net test?   1 flake?  1/2 a flake? I bought the small 1 inch hay net that was suggested here.  I would put haynet in his stall in the afternoon and observe for a few hours ( he is boarded at a public ranch) then come back the following morning to observe how things have progressed with the hay net, what was quidded,etc,,   Fyi, vet is waiting for Cornell to send shipping label for first time testing  I chose the EMSDP panel- acth,insulin,leptin,glucose and t4. Local lab will do chem/cbc as well.    Jesse is clearly cushings but not clearly ir.  He was started on prascend on jan 02 and titrated to full dose of 1 mg where he remains at this time and appears well.  lj friedman san diego nov 2014


ECHistory8



Re: sue & princess

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Sue,

As Linda has worked with you on Princess quite a bit she is going to answer and do some mark-ups for you on ECHoof as she is having access problems here.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


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