Date   

Re: Breeding

gypsylassie
 

Depending on your situation, you could hand walk her around interesting places.  If you have room for it you could make some simple obstacles and make a course to walk her thru.   I just got my hands on a few really sturdy pallets.  I'm going to 


On May 1, 2020, at 6:57 PM, Kelly Kathleen Daughtry <kellydaughtry@...> wrote:

It appears that Micah may not recover from her tendon injury, although there is still some hope. She is pasture sound but may not ever be able to be ridden. The vet suggested I breed her. She was a broodmare before I purchased her 7 years ago. She's had 2 foals and seems to stay in heat.  She is 18.  It is unlikely I will breed her but was curious if I even could/should. If her metabolic disorder is genetic, I would hate to pass it on. She loved being a mom; I'd almost  be doing it for her. She has to have a job to stay sane. Thoughts?
--
Kelly & Micah, Clayton NC

April 2016

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kelly%20and%20%20Micah 

Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1829  .

 

 

          


Re: Breeding

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 
Edited

It's a heart-wrenching sight when a mare is down with hoof pain and her foal is pawing at her to get up. I never want to see it again

Won't go so far as to say any horse with EMS shouldn't be bred. That would wipe out a lot of horses. You should try to research the lives of as many horses as possible in the line on both mare and potential sire side.  Also very important is the condition and history of the mare, realizing regardless of her history she is at heightened risk for laminitis when pregnant.  I've taken many IR mares safely through pregnancy - but the risk is always there.  Lots to consider.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Breeding

 

There is also a Facebook page for Non-Ridden Equines.  All kinds of things to do with a horse that is not being ridden.  My neighbor trained hers to dunk a basketball in a hoop. (one with a loop on the ball).

--
Gail Russell 8/30/2008

 

 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Gail%20and%20Brother%20-%20Odin%20-%20Decaffe%20%20-Gunthar .


Re: Horses on Invokana (canagliflozin)

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 04:36 PM, Kim Rice wrote:

When you say that older geldings with ppid would be a high risk group, what do you consider older geldings?
Teens and up.  They often have collections of calcium sediment in their bladders with low level irritation, an additional risk factor for infection.
 
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Hay Analysis for IR Horse

Maxine McArthur
 

Hi Jeanette
Lavinia has given you directions for uploading your case history and hay analysis. Once you have created your folder and uploaded your case history, please also take a moment to copy the URL and add it to your signature (thanks for getting your signature done!). 

This is our big welcome letter that we send new members. It is chock-full of useful information and links to more details, so please take a while to sit down and read through it, make notes, and please ask any questions you may have. The 'Diet' section will give you a lot more information on how to get his diet balanced to his hay--and great that you already have an analysis, by the way. 

Once again, welcome to the group, and do let us know if you have further questions.

 

The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group.We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck. 

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin, glucose and Leptin. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating". Knowing this helps to differentiate if a horse is IR "at baseline" or if an elevated ACTH is "driving" the insulin up. In Europe, substitute adiponectin for the leptin test.

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: IR is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine. If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for IR/PPID individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to IR/PPID equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercisecan begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you. 

 
--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Re: Horses on Invokana (canagliflozin)

Kim Rice <kimberztaz@...>
 

Hi Eleanor,

When you say that older geldings with ppid would be a high risk group, what do you consider older geldings?
--
Kim R, Lafayette, CA  2019
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kim%20and%20Shomee


Re: Breeding

Kim Rice <kimberztaz@...>
 

Hi Bonnie and Lad,

That is so cool what Peggy does with the clicker training.  Thank you for sharing with us.
--
Kim R, Lafayette, CA  2019
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kim%20and%20Shomee


Re: callie trim pics

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Thanks, Julie. We won't know unless you post a message here on the Main ECIR Group.

I labeled the radiographs you had uploaded.

Nice start. Still need to get the toes back further, RF more so than the LF, but compared to so many others we see here, the trim mostly needs tweaking rather than a massive overhaul.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


callie trim pics

Julie Allen
 

Hel
Not sure If i need to post this information or it just shows up automatically but I did post Callies trim pics from yesterday.
--
Julie 
Boring , Oregon 
2009
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/callie%20allen%20case%20history 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245704


Re: trying again soaked hay

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Daisy,

I think in a fairly dry, low humidity climate - especially if you're spreading hay out after soaking in the sun - you won't have to worry about it fermenting.  It will probably be mostly dry again by the time you feed.

Here, on the west ("wet") coat of Canada, I had no problems soaking enough hay to last 24 hrs at one time.  Our summer temps are between 15-25 deg Celsius, and our humidity is relatively high.  What I did was
1) soak the all the pre-weighed hay in nets in the early evening so the hay that did not get fed right away sat out overnight when it is coolest,
2) put the netted hay for the late night, morning and noon feeds on a pallet (later changed to a garden cart with a wire mesh base), for air flow and drainage, and 
3) the pallet/cart of hay was in an area that was shaded by my barn all morning, until about 2pm, so even the noon feed did not sit out in the sun.

This system worked well and didn't have any problems feeding this hay.  Did it ferment a bit?  Maybe, but not enough that I noticed any changes in the soaked hay, or in how it was being digested.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: callie labs posted

Julie Allen
 

I have no idea what times or how the blood samples were handled as she was not my horse then.
I do strongly suspect she was not really getting her meds in tho just had them tossed in a feed bucket -- barn owner did say she wouldn't really eat her meds.ut she did nothing about it and said nothing to owner.
i have given her 2 pills of crushed pracend every morning for 10 days she eats it all in a cup of dampend timothy pellets. i give this to her first thing in the morning before hay and make sure its gone before feeding her hay.
--
Julie 
Boring , Oregon 
2009
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/callie%20allen%20case%20history 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245704


Re: callie labs posted

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Good point, Ellen.

Additionally, unless the the samples were drawn all at once and sent to the two different labs at the same time, getting different values would not be unusual as ACTH/Insulin/Glucose values fluctuate constantly. Time of day, date, temperature will all affect the values as well, so having all that information gives you the context needed to make sense of the reported results and enable you to compare them more reliably.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Breeding

 

Long before anyone really understood IR, I had friends who were taking care of a Norwegian Fjord mare while she was pregnant.  She foundered badly.  While she did eventually deliver, I believe she was eventually put down because her feet were such a mess.  My friends would not have let her out on cross injudiciously.  In fact, I think she was in a stall and attached paddock most of the time, with turnout.

--
Gail Russell 8/30/2008

 

 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Gail%20and%20Brother%20-%20Odin%20-%20Decaffe%20%20-Gunthar .


Re: callie labs posted

 

And if the horse was getting half her dose, twice a day, that may have affected labs also ...
 
 

--
Ellen
Pal & Savvy
N. Alabama
Aug 2013
Case History 


Re: Breeding

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Kelly,

So sorry that the tendon injury may be career ending.

IR is not a disease but a genetic survival tool, as it functions to allow these horses to survive by having metabolisms that are programmed to be extra thrifty. Not so helpful in domestication when there is more-than-plenty of everything to go around. Arabs are poster children for this genetic make-up, which makes them superb at endurance-type activities but also makes them prone to crashing if their activity levels drop off. PPID is a disease that is more likely to occur the longer a horse lives rather than being a genetic trait.

Pregnancy always creates a degree of IR in every mare, so in a horse that is already IR this must be managed carefully so as to prevent triggering a major laminitic event. Pergolide prevents milk let down in mares so it complicates nursing/raising a foal unless you stop administering the medication - which will create it's own problems.

Breeding Micah at this point would be a difficult process and not one to be undertaken lightly.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Hay Analysis for IR Horse

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

HI Jeannette,

Welcome to the group. You will be receiving our Official Welcome message in a bit.

You need to create a folder on the Case History sub-group:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory

You'll need to join that group but that just takes a moment. Hay analyses, case history form, more complicated blood work results that don't fit on the case history form, all go in this folder. Photos of any kind belong in an album you can create on the Case History group in the Photos section.

The ESC+starch results are safe so this hay doesn't need to be soaked (Yay!). It will need to be mineral balanced (as do all hays) so if you want to get started on that process, here's the link to the list of people trained to do diet balancing:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/6%20Diet%20Balancing/HAY%20BALANCING.pdf

Just post messages here on the Main \ECIR Group when you have the info uploaded  Please let us know if you get stuck anywhere.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Breeding

kguest@...
 

We had a lovely mare that we bred without knowing she had IR and early Cushings (she also loved being a mom and had been a broodmare before we got her with the intention of breeding). After we weaned the foal her health crashed (repeated bouts of severe laminitis). The foal (now 8) is IR. We discovered this when he had a severe bout of laminitis the spring he turned 4. 
--


Kristen and Jasper, Prince George BC
December 2016
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kristen%20and%20Jasper .
Jasper Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=3346 .


Hay Analysis for IR Horse

jeannetteg@...
 

Hello,
My 12 yr old Quarter Horse gelding recently tested positive for IR. I would appreciate some help interpreting my hay analysis so I know if it is suitable to continue feeding it to him. I have been soaking hay since April 8, when IR was suspected. Numbers on analysis show ESC 5.7% & Starch 1.8% (will send analysis when I figure out how to add file).
I am working on his Case History, and am not sure how to attach or save file for sharing? I'll keep reading directions.
Thank you.
--
Jeannette R in WA 2020


Re: callie labs posted

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

It doesn't particularly matter which labs since both are strongly positive.  This  group is most familiar with results from the Cornell lab, which was also the lab used to establish the IR calculator values.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: callie labs posted

Julie Allen
 

Okay,
i will forgo any hand walking for now.and wait a few months. tho she is sound...? not lame at all anywhere.. 
she is on a good diet not the emergency .

which labs do I believe? 

Thanks
--
Julie 
Boring , Oregon 
2009
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/callie%20allen%20case%20history 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245704

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