Date   

Re: Leptin

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

It can be done separately but not to make a diagnosis of EMS. Too many other things can affect it.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Devils Claw

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Amber,

Do you have Marquis on the DSLD protocol of jiaogulan and AAKG?

Uckele has a Devil's Claw without yucca, as well as the one with the yucca. Hyaluronic acid is another safe option. Here's a post from Dr. Kellon for a couple of other options:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/246424?p=,,,20,0,0,0::Created,,uckele+devil%27s+claw,20,2,0,71009886

Agree with Dawn on using bute just for the trims: dose the night before and the morning of a trim for a boost in pain relief during that time.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: administering Invokana

LJ Friedman
 

with jesse. , very easy to pill.  i give a handful of hygain zero with the invokana 
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: Devils Claw

celestinefarm
 

Meant to answer the second part of your question regarding best pain relief. It depends on how much pain your horse is in.  You say he is having trouble standing for trimming, etc.  Is that the only time he is overtly uncomfortable? You don't want to keep him on bute as you know. Other NSAIDS that are RX have long term issues also.   If so, and he were mine, I would administer bute or banamine the day of trimming, then I would look for a long term anti inflammatory. Devils Claw, or consider a much slower acting , but safe for IR horses anti inflammatory such as MyBestHorse's Move Ease.  Something else I find works for leg or joint soreness is Sore No More gel lotion applied to the sore area.
As you noted, most of the joint supplements out there have yucca, or Glucosamine in them and are too risky.
--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .


Re: Devils Claw

celestinefarm
 

Amber, I don't know the answer to your question. You could call Emerald Valley and ask, my guess is they are going to suggest you stay at the dosage level of a loading dose permanently, but I doubt they will advise you to double the dose. 

--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .


Re: replacing Phos-4 with monosodium phosphate

Bonnie
 

Many thanks to you, Kathleen and Carol, for taking time when there is so much going on to provide guidance. Be blessed and safe.
--
Bonnie and Lad
North Ontario
Dec 2008
 


Re: Devils Claw

 

Thank you both. How do I handle the dosage if I only feed once a day? Also, is this the best pain relief you know of?

Thanks so much!

On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 10:35 AM, celestinefarm wrote:
Amber, Emerald Valley in NH has a liquid Devil's Claw available.
https://emeraldvalleyequine.com/product/btb-plus/

--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .


 Thank you both. How do I handle the dosage if I only feed once?
--
Amber, Calliber and now Marquise
Upstate SC
Joined in 2019

NRCPlus Jan 2019
CIR 2019
DEW 2019

Calliber Case History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Amber%20and%20Calliber
Calliber Photos https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=82557

Marquise's Case History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Amber%20and%20Marquise
Marquise's Photos https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=91447


Re: Low Sugar Hay in Oregon

Cardodwelsh@...
 

Thank you!
--
Candace Hale in Oregon 2020


Re: replacing Phos-4 with monosodium phosphate

 

Bonnie, 

On the last worksheet I prepared for Lad in September, he needed 4 grams of phosphorus.   If you need to switch to monosodium phosphate,  15 grams will supply 4 grams of elemental phosphorus. 

Carol Broyles 
August 2007
Spring Valley,  Ohio 


Re: Devils Claw

celestinefarm
 

Amber, Emerald Valley in NH has a liquid Devil's Claw available.
https://emeraldvalleyequine.com/product/btb-plus/

--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .


Re: Leptin

 

Hi, Trisha.

As far as I know, Cornell is the only lab in USA and Canada that offers leptin testing for equines. Here's the link. Type leptin in the search box. It's available to veterinarians as a standalone test or as part of panel of tests. 
https://ahdc-portal.vet.cornell.edu/#!/test_fee/search 

--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos 


Leptin

Trisha DePietro
 

Hi all. Is leptin a test that can be done separately from glucose and insulin tests? looked through the archives and didn't see anything specific...thanks
--
Trisha DePietro
Aug 2018
NH
Dolly and Hope's Case Histories https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Trisha%20and%20Dolly%20-%20Hope
Dolly's Photos 
Hope's Photos 
Primary Responder


Re: IR/EPSM?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Here you go,Vee:  https://groups.io/g/EPSM-PSSM
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Devils Claw

 

Try herbalcom.com for straight-up devils claw.  One Tablespoon AM and PM.
--
Jean and Amber (over the bridge)

Buster and Nikki

South Carolina

August 2004

NRCPlus 0412; CIR 0813, 1211; NAT 0612

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Gloria%20and%20Amber


Re: Iron Balancing

Saskia Visser
 

Thank you Trisha and Sherry :-)

It is amazing the amount of information to sort through.  Very thankful for the ECIR group and the simple to follow emergency diet, helped us greatly.  Learned so much and still have soooo much more to learn.  It is scary how many people are just giving horse random balancers when they have no clue what is in their hay - I was one of them!!  It seems very hard to find the individual minerals to replace deficiencies, there are all mixes of one sort of another but I admit I have only just started looking since I received my hay analysis.
--
Saskia V in CH 2020

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Saskia%20and%20Skipper


Re: pentosan for ppid horses

LJ Friedman
 

My local vet said they were shut down because they were selling steroids and some other stuff. The site from Ukraine shows the Racehorse logos on the bottles.
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: Senior Gelding Diagnosed with cushings and having bladder issues

Jess
 

Hi Dr Kellon,

Thank you! I emailed you but I just got a quick phone call today he did test positive for lepto too. I didn’t catch the name so I’ll confirm that tomorrow.
--
Jess in New Jersey 2020


Re: replacing Phos-4 with monosodium phosphate

Bonnie
 

Unlike my old uncle who proudly drove his truck with a bumper sticker saying "Stop The Metrifxxxation Of Canada", I have made peace with decimals etc. But the problem is my brain will not hold onto the numbers as I work with them. Is this the number I am supposed to divide into that one? Or must I divide that by this? Maybe I should multiply? The kind of mixup that gives me fear of doing real harm with dosing. Like dyslexia only with numerals.
--
Bonnie and Lad
North Ontario
Dec 2008
 


Re: Syndiego is PPID

Trisha DePietro
 

Hi Cindy. I started both of my horses on Prascend at the 0.25 dosing and gradually went up. I didn't have any problems with "the veil". While the Prascend will help manage the PPID, the bloodwork is still showing an uncompensated IR. So, are you still tweaking his diet? Getting the whole multimodal combination of interventions to help manage is really the key in changing your bloodwork for the best it can be. Just in case you don't have this information handy-I have attached it for you to review...It is our welcome information for new members. Especially review the diet links and then review your current diet and compare. Hope this helps! 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin, glucose and Leptin. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating". Knowing this helps to differentiate if a horse is IR "at baseline" or if an elevated ACTH is "driving" the insulin up. In Europe, substitute adiponectin for the leptin test.

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: IR is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APFThe best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add groundflax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine. If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spikeMake sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for IR/PPID individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to IR/PPID equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

 

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have aproper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

 

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommendtapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

 

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local res


--
Trisha DePietro
Aug 2018
NH
Dolly and Hope's Case Histories https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Trisha%20and%20Dolly%20-%20Hope
Dolly's Photos 
Hope's Photos 
Primary Responder


Devils Claw

 

I am looking for a source for Devils Claw or a good safe pain reliever. All of the DC I am finding has yucca in it. Right now I have Marquise on a low dose of Bute (I know I’m not supposed to, but I feel like I have to give him something until I can find something better.) Currently he is very uncomfortable and having trouble standing for trims.

I should add it’s not laminitis, it’s arthritis, ringbone and DSLD. My sweet boy is breaking my heart.
--
Amber, Calliber and now Marquise
Upstate SC
Joined in 2019

NRCPlus Jan 2019
CIR 2019
DEW 2019

Calliber Case History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Amber%20and%20Calliber
Calliber Photos https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=82557

Marquise's Case History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Amber%20and%20Marquise
Marquise's Photos https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=91447

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