Hi, Cari.
There's fine print at the bottom of the NSC chart page that explains why Triple Crown feeds can test with higher ESC+Starch than shown on the chart.

First, recall that ECIR evaluates appropriate carbohydrates as ESC+Starch, not NSC. You can search Messages for many explanations why NSC is not the critical value for our horses with EMS, such as https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/258553 and the thread in which it is embedded.

Second, the values shown on the chart are estimates, not guaranteed analyses. 

Third, this disclaimer covers variation:
"The following coefficients of variation (cv) can be associated with the carbohydrate analyses. These should reasonably account for both sampling and analytical variation, though as you know, poor sampling can lead to much larger variation. The coefficients of variation (cv) for starch is 10%, WSC is 15% and ESC is 15%. For example, a feed with a WSC value of 10% should be expected to range from 8.5 – 11.5% and a WSC value of 20% to range from 17 – 23%. In addition, there are variables on ingredients between suppliers that could be as much as an additional 5% to 10% per ingredient."
By my simple math,  ESC can be as high as 6.56% and starch as high as 3.96%, for a total of 10.52%. 

Fourth, we don't know if the listed percentages on the chart are as Dry Matter (equalizing for moisture content at zero) instead of As Fed, meaning values for what you feed out of the bag. If the percentages are as Dry Matter, what we feed out of the bag could be even higher in ESC+Starch than 10.52%.

--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos

II was curious about the starch/ sugar etc.... I know the websites say the NSC it is 11.4, but I know it often tests much different than what they report.

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Cari Johnson
San Diego, CA
2019
Rio's Case History
Rio's Case Photos

OK Sherry and Kristen, I got it all in one album and deleted the other. I'd like to say I'm getting the hang of this website, but that might be overly optimistic.
--
Shawn and Candy
Dec 2020, Santa Cruz, CA
Candy Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Shawn%20and%20Candy
Candy Photo Album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=258140

Here's the link
https://www.triplecrownfeed.com/products/senior-gold/


--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php

Has anyone tested the new New Triple Crown Senior Gold yet?

--
Cari Johnson
San Diego, CA
2019
Rio's Case History
Rio's Case Photos

Jennifer - just a member here but I wanted to add that my horse would not be with me now if not for the Invokana.  He still wears boots but otherwise he is sound, much happier and free from pain.  I had tried emergency diet, soaking hay, all the supplements that claim to help IR, and Metformin.  My vet has been on board with Invokana from the beginning as he has been with us thru the entire 1 1/2 yr struggle. My horse's insulin is now within the normal range but i still maintain his IR diet according to the protocol here.  He does urinate more as Dr Kellon stated but he has had no ill side effects from the med.  I check his urine about once a month now and that has been normal.  My vet did a urinalysis for me just to be on the safe side and all was fine.

I cannot say enough good things about this group and Dr Kellon.  Everyone is helpful and so knowledgeable and it's all free information.  All the best with your horse, hoping it all works out for you and Flea
--
Nancy K
Smoke and Tucky
November 2018, Southeast, MA

Smoke Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Smoke
Smoke Photo Album:    https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=94122
Tucky Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Tuck 
Tucky Photo Album:

Thanks for your reply Lavinia. No I don’t know what happened to this sample and why it took so long. Same thing happened to the sample that was sent last spring - it took an awful long time for the sample to get to Cornell. As well the results from Cornell last spring were all wonky too. Very frustrating!

with the help of a vet tech I took the sample (kept chilled) to the vet’s office immediately after the blood was drawn. Samples were sent by my vet to Cornell and Guelph on the same day. Have others experienced such a delay when sending blood from Canada to Cornell?
--

 

Judy and Bugsy

Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada

Feb. 25, 2020

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Judy%20and%20Bugsy
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=243358

 

Hi Rhonda,

Not sure what you mean by crooked - the photos are fine? His current weight looks good to me.

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=258159

It would be really helpful to see a full set of hoof photos for Scooter as the two rads you also uploaded (thanks) show a definite need for trim adjustments and the mark-up on the lateral showed that the heel needed lowereing, which was definitely NOT a good idea.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR

No problem.  I was confused too so all good! Thanks for clarifying Dr. Kellon.
--
Heather
August 5, 2017, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

Riosa 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Heather%20and%20Riosa

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8819 


Storm

I looked and the photo album seems connected to my signature, I think.  Anyway, thank you for "Feeding Recovered Laminitics" .  I have some things to try for him at his boarding barn.  Much appreciated!!
--
Rhonda Turley
Brampton, Ontario
April 2020
Scooter and Rhonda     

Hi Shannon,

Dr. Kellon has already provided you with some ideas for safer pain management options.

It would be very helpful to see the radiographs and pictures of her feet to see if the trim is in any way impeding her progress. Unfortunately, we have found that can be a contributing factor too many times to count.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR

Hi Judy,

Looks like the Cornell results are way off base :(

The glucose is obviously wrong as that number is too low to sustain life. Glucose is the most sensitive to sampling/handling issues so when the result is that seriously compromised it casts serious doubts on the rest of the results as well.

The ACTH should at least be about the same as the Guelph result (which would be 29.09pg/mL). Normally, we tend to see the ACTH result from the Cornell assay coming in higher than the pmol assays, so that it came back so much lower points to there being sample handling/storage issues.

Any idea where the sample was for almost 3 weeks, as the draw was Oct 30 but the sample wasn't received by Cornell until Nov 18th?

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR

If she is that painful your vet can come give IV DMSO, add acetaminophen & Pentoxyphilline to your bute, Gabapentin, Metformin and Thyro L ...this is the protocol that University of Pennsylvania New Bolten Center uses for acute cases ...also put her in Softride Boots with the gel orthotic inserts ..if you don’t have those duct tape some styrofoam board to her feet until you get them.


--
Michele Goldberg
Bernville, Pa
joined 5/19/2016

It's certainly another option that you could experiment with. Just be prepared to remove whatever you put on asap if it makes the situation worse.

Biggest thing is that with the bony column rotation that is present, it's going to be very difficult to find a comfortable option. If she will stand on the foot as the heel is lowered, then that needs to be a priority in order to get the weight off the deteriorating tip of the coffin bone. Another question would be whether there is any infection in that coffin bone - if so, need to address that.

If she keeps rotating, need to find and eliminate the cause.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR