I have been noticing that the horses we have on the TCSSF are starting
to loose interest, and don't always finish there food. We are
currently feeding 1 lb 2 times a day. I was wondering if it would be
acceptable to mix the TCSSF with thw LOw starch pellets, to help make
it more interesting for them. I know it comes in at 15% nsc, but if
they are only getting 1 lb total per day would that be a problem? As
far as I can see there are no other pelleted options in Michigan.
Thanks, Leah

Instead of 1 lb, try 1 cup to begin with - start small. Also could try a handful of hay cubes. Would rather see low NSC used for taste tempting than high NSC.

Amberlee
www.fivepineranch.com
Please Visit Our Site!

--- In EquineCushings@..., 5 Pine Ranch
<fivepineranch@...> wrote:

Instead of 1 lb, try 1 cup Also could try a handful of hay cubes.

Amberlee
www.fivepineranch.com
Please Visit Our Site!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Amberlee,

I didnt even think about just throwing some handfuls in to see if that
helps. I have tried the cubes they can't stand them.

Leah

--- In EquineCushings@..., "leah" <eastrup@...> wrote:

I have been noticing that the horses we have on the TCSSF are

starting

to loose interest, and don't always finish there food. We are
currently feeding 1 lb 2 times a day. I was wondering if it would be
acceptable to mix the TCSSF with thw LOw starch pellets, to help

make

it more interesting for them. I know it comes in at 15% nsc, but if
they are only getting 1 lb total per day would that be a problem? As
far as I can see there are no other pelleted options in Michigan.
Thanks, Leah

Leah,
I'm not sure what you meant by no other pelleted options in Michigan.
I am currently using Progressive feed which is carried in several
locations in Michigan. I'm using the Grass balancer, which Dr. Kellon
ananalyzed with my hay for my herd(easy keeper Morgans) and the Growth
pellets(not the sweet feed version) for my older, preCushings mare(she
is on Evitex currently, no pergolide, and is doing terrific)and my 14
momonth old colt.The Growth is supposed to test around 11-12%in the
pelleted form.All are finishing their food(I add hot water to make a
bit of a mush, which also dissolves the salt, Vit E,and Horseshine.
Only the colt will walk off and leave his unfinished, but he is more
like a 4 year old child."now son, come back to the table and finish
your dinner. You have to eat everything before you can go play."
Dawn Wagstaff

--- In EquineCushings@..., "parkell2001"
<parkell2001@...> wrote:

--- In EquineCushings@..., "leah" <eastrup@> wrote:

? As
far as I can see there are no other pelleted options in Michigan.
Thanks, Leah

Leah,
I'm not sure what you meant by no other pelleted options in

Michigan.

I am currently using Progressive feed which is carried in several
locations in Michigan. I'm using the Grass balancer, which Dr.

Kellon

ananalyzed with my hay for my herd
Dawn Wagstaff

Hi Dawn,
Where are you in Michigan. I live in ann Arbor. I have never heard of
this feed can you tell me more about it? And where do you get it?
Thanks,Leah

I am currently using Progressive feed which is carried in

several

locations in Michigan. I'm using the Grass balancer, which Dr.

Kellon

ananalyzed with my hay for my herd
Dawn Wagstaff

Hi Dawn,
Where are you in Michigan. I live in ann Arbor. I have never heard

of

this feed can you tell me more about it? And where do you get it?
Thanks,Leah

Leah,
I am south of Saline. Small world, huh!. I get my Progressive from
Cutler Dickerson in Saline(Town and Country Supplies), they also
have stores in Jonesville and Adrian. I started with Progressive
after my vet requested I only use a milk based pelleted foal feed
for my last years foal for creep feeding. I was using Triple Crown,
and they do not make a milk based foal feed. Progressive does and
they also had additional products for young foals(milk replacer,
copper and zinc additives for foals for joint protection, etc.)
Also, Triple Crown at the time required almost six pounds of feed be
fed to meet their minimum daily requirements and all my horses got
way too fat.(I was using the TC Low Starch)Progressive's feed allows
me to only have to feed 2 pounds per day and weight is not an issue
anymore, although my easy keepers that are on grass pastures are now
also wearing muzzles for the fall.

I do have really great grass hay that tested at 5.7%overall NFC, and
even more lucky that the minerals and vitamins balanced enough to
allow me to continue to use the Progressive instead of a custom mix.
My manganese is high in my hay though, and Dr.Kellon was a little
concerned about the additional manganese in Progressive's feed for
my precushing's mare. But so far, so good, she is doing just great
with the Evitex.

Progressive's website is http://www.prognutrition.com/

Dawn

--- In EquineCushings@..., "parkell2001"
<parkell2001@...> wrote:

I am currently using Progressive feed I'm using the Grass

balancer, which Dr.

Kellon

ananalyzed with my hay for my herd
Dawn Wagstaff

Hi Dawn,
Where are you in Michigan. I live in ann Arbor. I have never

heard

of

this feed can you tell me more about it? And where do you get it?
Thanks,Leah

Leah,
I am south of Saline. > I do have really great grass hay that

tested at 5.7%overall NFC, and

even more lucky that the minerals and vitamins balanced enough to
allow me to continue to use the Progressive instead of a custom

mix.

Dawn

Hey Dawn,

Thanks for the info. I did find the website and saw there locations,
nice and close. I was confused though about the NSC. If i saw
corrrectly the grass balencer is like 14% is that correct? I have
been told that that would be to high to feed in larger amounts. Just
wondering what Dr. Kellon told you about its being safe.
Also, I would love to know where you get your hay? Do you think the
farmer would have enought to sell to anyone else? We are set thru
next June, but would love to have the option of such a well balenced
hay.
Thanks again, Leah

Hey Dawn,

Thanks for the info. I did find the website and saw there locations,
nice and close. I was confused though about the NSC. If i saw
corrrectly the grass balencer is like 14% is that correct? I have
been told that that would be to high to feed in larger amounts. Just
wondering what Dr. Kellon told you about its being safe.
Also, I would love to know where you get your hay? Do you think the
farmer would have enought to sell to anyone else? We are set thru
next June, but would love to have the option of such a well balenced
hay.
Thanks again, Leah

Hi Leah,
Yes, I think the grass balancer does average in around 14%, the
growth, at 13%.
The group had found that IR and early cushings horses needed to stay
under 15% NSC to remain less symptomatic and 10% and under for horses
with severe symptoms. Some of this has gotten a little fuzzy as new
research has come in regarding fructans, individual sensitivity, etc.
Some horses can tolerate a carrot, some cannot. Some can handle 14%
nsc, some cannot.
My experience has been you need to look at each horse as an
individual. Discuss your situation with Dr. Kellon and other's on this
board who have a lot more knowledge about what works and what might
need tweaking in your case. I personally feel that you have to look at
everything you are doing. If I have good quality, low NSC hay with
balanced minerals, decent water, pasture management that allows my
horses exercise without gorging on high sugar grass, a readily
available feed that is just slightly over the NSC but has all the
minerals, vitamins, etc. that complement my hay, no sugar treats, and
balanced frequent hoof care, and my horses are doing well, I'm not
going to fret that my bagged feed is slightly over the absolute ideal
in NSC. Now if my precushings mare starts to have issues or
backslides, then I will tighten her diet up even more, switching her
to a custom mix with beet pulp(although plain beet pulp isn't always
fail safe, look at the files at the bags that tested somewhere in the
twenties)I would also retest her ACTH, and possibly consider switching
her to pergolide instead of the Evitex.
Regarding the hay, I buy it from my farmer neighbor who only sells to
three of us locally. He has only a few fields of grass hay(he is a
dairy farmer and almost everything not holding up a cow is planted in
corn and soybeans.) I buy a years worth at a time and he and I always
look at the fields and determine when to cut it. With no second cut
this year and a small third, I know for certain he has no more to
sell, just alfalfa. If I hear of any additional, I'll let you know.
Dawn

Dawn that was a good way to sum it all up taking in the whole picture and the individualness of this diet balancing.

I wanted to make a comment on the TC low starch and lite formulas. After not such great success with the Progressive Grass Balancer (coat was dull and lightened and he really didn't like it so most of it just went to waste anyway) we made a switch. We had just gotten Triple Crown down here and I compared the 2 formulas. I only feed 2 lbs of the Low Starch, even though they say to feed more. It was a good start to a balanced ratio of the minerals like Ca & Mg. The Lite has a ratio something like 4:1 while the LS is 2:1. And my other concern was the iron content. Since our hay is higher in iron than we like, I didn't want iron overload to be an issue. Lite has 515 ppm while LS has 170. I also had Dr. Kellon help me with our spreadsheet and found that with our hay (in that particular analysis) with the TCLS at 2 lbs we could come close to our ratios of other stuff with a premixed supplement Select 1 that was in a palatable
base. Magic hates anything powdered added, hates beet pulp and just about anything else you put in front of him so we had to come up with a solution as close to good that he would still eat. He likes his TCLS though and his coat has been healthier on it.

Magic has never been totally balanced to what we recommend on this group nor have we had his ACTH numbers to be right where we want either, always behind the curve with our medication increases, so the decline over the past 2 1/2 years that we have seen can probably be attributed to those two factors. We had to do the best we could do and still got a wonderful 2 years of great rides, driving and showing while keeping him sound.

I will say this. When we tried to raise the amount of TCLS we were feeding to 3 and then 4 lbs, he started peeing a lot more so we had to cut it back down to 2 lbs.

But the point is to consider all the pieces of the puzzle. NSC of course first but the other minerals and nutrients and how they balance to your hay and other parts of the diet. Then observe how the horse is doing on it. And as soon as there is any increase of IR signs figure out what has changed and fix it.

I'm going off on another point but it is related. After getting the diet back where it needed to be he had another bout with increased urine output. Ends up that the leaves coming off the trees was the culprit and we moved him to a different dry lot to see. And sure enough it came back down to normal again.

Hope some of this has been helpful.
Kathy Saucier & Magic

4b. Re: Triple Crown Low Starch
Posted by: "parkell2001" parkell2001@... parkell2001
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:02 am ((PDT))
.....My experience has been you need to look at each horse as an
individual. Discuss your situation with Dr. Kellon and other's on this
board who have a lot more knowledge about what works and what might
need tweaking in your case. I personally feel that you have to look at
everything you are doing. If I have good quality, low NSC hay with
balanced minerals, decent water, pasture management that allows my
horses exercise without gorging on high sugar grass, a readily
available feed that is just slightly over the NSC but has all the
minerals, vitamins, etc. that complement my hay, no sugar treats, and
balanced frequent hoof care, and my horses are doing well, I'm not
going to fret that my bagged feed is slightly over the absolute ideal
in NSC. Now if my precushings mare starts to have issues or
backslides, then I will tighten her diet up even more......