Date
1 - 17 of 17
Hay analysis
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Barbara <BarbaryPinesMorgans@...>
I have just posted my hay analysis and would appreciate any help. I thought that anything below 10% NSC didn't have to be soaked but when I put it in the worksheet, the results said to soak hay.
I was also very concerned about the iron content. http://www.sportshorses.com/samples/bpfmrgns.timothy.FAF.htm Barbara Carlson Barbary Pines Farm www.Barbarypinesmorgans.com |
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lindarollins38@...
I had the same experience with the "soaking hay." Geez, you're concerned about iron at 61 ppm?! Mine was 192!
http://www.sportshorses.com/cases/rollinslinda.Peanut.htm |
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Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...>
--- In EquineCushings@..., "Barbara"
<BarbaryPinesMorgans@...> wrote: I thought that anything below 10% NSC didn't have to be soaked but when I put it in the worksheet, the results said to soak hay. I was also very concerned about the iron content.The NSC sounds like another blip to be ironed only. Only caution on the 10% with the new testing is that the "average" hay is testing 2% lower, which means if your hay is between 8% and 10% it could be iffy. Let the horse be your guide. If you don't see better foot comfort and crests etc. coming down trying soaking for a week or so to see if that makes a difference (no other changes). You'll be fine with that iron, just balance your other traces. Just to clarify on iron, in additon to the sources mentioned in the last mail there's water and the "hidden" iron in commercial feeds and supplements the horse may have been getting it's whole life, like iron levels in dicalcium and monocalcium phosphate, which are also high and in virtually every commercial feed and supplement. Don't sweat it if your Fe:Cu is below 4:1. Rejoice instead. If you're worried you can always test but iron deficiency (and iron deficiency anemia) doesn't happen until ferritin is below 20. Even with a tight 4:1 ratio I'm happy to see them below 200! Eleanor |
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Sandra Su
Posted by: "Eleanor Kellon, VMD" <mailto:drkellon@...?Subject=So, if a horse got an iron overload years ago (Penny was fed Red Cell for a while at a barn where I boarded), does that affect her now? -- Sandy Su ssu@... |
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Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...>
--- In EquineCushings@..., Sandra Su <ssu@...> wrote:
So, if a horse got an iron overload years ago (Penny was fedher now?The only way to know would be to check her iron status. Except for low level losses in sweat, once inside the body the iron has basically no way out. The horse's body is designed to hold onto iron. Iron from old red blood cells is stripped from the hemoglobin and held in iron deposits in the spleen. Dietary iron is stored in both the spleen and the liver. Iron circulates in the blood tightly bound to transferrin. Protein bound minerals cannot be excreted by the kidneys. Free iron in the tissues is highly reactive, generating large amounts of free radicals Toxicology. 2000 Aug 14;149(1):43-50. Links The Haber-Weiss reaction and mechanisms of toxicity.Kehrer JP. Division of Pharmacology and Toxicology, College of Pharmacy, The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, TX 78712-1074, USA. keherjim@... The concept that the highly reactive hydroxyl radical (HO) could be generated from an interaction between superoxide (O(2)(-)) and hydrogen peroxide (H(2)O(2)) was proposed (with Joseph Weiss) in Professor Haber's final paper published in 1934. Until it was recognized that free radicals are produced in biological systems, this finding seemed to have no relevance to biology. However, following the discovery that O(2)(-) was a normal cellular metabolite, it was quickly recognized that the Haber-Weiss reaction (O(2)(-)+H(2)O(2) -->HO+O(2)+HO(-)) might provide a means to generate more toxic radicals. Although the basic reaction has a second order rate constant of zero in aqueous solution and thus cannot occur in biological systems, the ability of iron salts to serve as catalysts was discussed by these authors. Because transition metal ions, particularly iron, are present at low levels in biological systems, this pathway (commonly referred to as the iron-catalyzed Haber-Weiss reaction) has been widely postulated to account for the in vivo generation of the highly reactive HO. Recent data documenting the importance of redox regulation of various cellular signaling pathways makes it clear that free radicals are essential for normal cellular function. However, this also makes it obvious that disruptions of free radical production or defenses at many different levels can lead to adverse effects on cells. While the generation of HO, which is by far the most reactive oxygen species, is generally indicative of an overtly toxic event, it is through studies at this level that we have reached a better understanding of free radicals as both signaling molecules and toxic species. ================================ Only tiny amounts of iron are normally lost in the urine. There are small daily losses of iron in the form of hemoglobin into the GI tract. In people this amounts to less than 1 mg/day. Iron absorption and losses has never been studied in horses. The only way the horse can lose iron is by whatever the baseline loss is (likely small), plus through bleeding - wounds, bleeding ulcers, parasites. We also don't know much about the regulation of iron absorption in horses, or the relative contribution of active absorption (which can be regulated) versus passive and protein bound iron, which is not regulated. Eleanor |
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Dr. Kellon
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Regarding this discussion of Iron in horses . . . since most iron ingested by a horse is retained, for their lifetime . . . how important is an iron supplement for horses? Is there such a thing as "used" iron (useless) and "new" unused (useful) iron in a horse's body? Thereby requiring a continual "new" supply, (i.e. supplement). Since most mineral supplements contain iron, is this information that is not widely known amongst the equine professionals? Or is the iron supplement truly needed? Thanks, Janet P.S. I have high iron in my grassy hay. The county I live in is known to have iron ore deposits throughout. I also have iron in my mineral supplement. drkellon@... 10/31/2007 10:31:14 am >>> |
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Sandra Su
Posted by: "Janet Gerl"Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:45 am (PST) I have high iron in my grassy hay. The county I live in is known toSince your hay is already high in iron, use a mineral supplement w/ no iron in it. Better yet, balance the minerals to your hay. Too much iron is an ongoing problem. It can make your horse's symptoms worse. Others with more knowledge may add suggestions for what to do about the hay. Soaking will get rid of some iron, but will that be enough? Horses don't need iron supplementation, so the problem with iron is getting too much, not getting too little. -- Sandy Su ssu@... |
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Sandy, thank you for responding to my high iron question.
Dr. Kellon looked at my hay analysis and also my supplements and commented that my horse doesn't need any more iron. I think that meant that it was high but not necessarily harmful. But personally, I'd still like to get rid of the xtra iron in the supplements. She thought my supplements were fine. So, the other part of my email asked if all supplements "packages" include iron. Do you or does anyone else know of a packaged mineral supplement (meaning off the shelf) without iron? I guess I'd first like to see if I can get a pre-combined overall mineral supplement before having to start creating my own combination. Any info is greatly appreciated. Janet Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:45 am (PST)Posted by: "Janet Gerl"ssu@... 10/31/2007 8:41:31 pm >>> I have high iron in my grassy hay. The county I live in is known toSince your hay is already high in iron, use a mineral supplement w/ no iron in it. Better yet, balance the minerals to your hay. Too much iron is an ongoing problem. It can make your horse's symptoms worse. Others with more knowledge may add suggestions for what to do about the hay. Soaking will get rid of some iron, but will that be enough? Horses don't need iron supplementation, so the problem with iron is getting too much, not getting too little. -- Sandy Su ssu@... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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So, the other part of my email asked if all supplements "packages"Most "Farrier" or "Hoof" type supplements don't list iron in their analysis (but double check the ingredients list). HorseTech www.horsetech.com does not add iron to any of their supplements (except Photo Finish). Also, look under "commercial supplements" in folder #3 at http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/files/%203%20%20CORE% 20DIET%2C%20ANALYSIS%2C%20NUTRITIONAL%20NEEDS/ Patti K Vail AZ |
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Janet,
I use D Carb Balance (MedVet), and it has no iron in it. Valley Vet and J & B Vet Supply both carry it. It balances my timothy hay pretty well (which already has too much iron in it). Carol Do you or does anyone else know of a packaged mineral supplement(meaning off the shelf) without iron? I guess I'd first like to see if I can get a pre-combined overall mineral supplement before having to start creating my own combination.
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Sandra Su
Posted by: "Janet Gerl"Janet, You are very lucky, if your supplements match your hay. Most of us need a custom mix, since hays can vary so much in the amounts of each mineral. Have you had your hay tested and found that the supplement you use matches that? So, the other part of my email asked if all supplements "packages"You can get custom mineral mixes from HorseTech and Uckele. That means you wouldn't have to mix your own, and it'd come in a tub, just like one off the shelf. But I hear that's more expensive than buying the ingredients and mixing your own. I haven't looked into commercial, premixed mineral supplements, because chances are, they won't have just what I need in the correct amounts, and nothing I don't need. I mix my own. -- Sandy Su ssu@... |
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Sandy wrote:
You are very lucky, if your supplements match your hay. Most of us need a custom mix, since hays can vary so much in the amounts of each mineral. Have you had your hay tested and found that the supplement you use matches that? Sandy . . . I'm pretty new here, so in light of that, let me just say I can't imagine mixing your own supplements ingredient by ingredient. Surely you are purchasing some pre-packaged supplements to make up your entire mix to match your hay. I'm under the impression that we are just trying to stay within "safe" acceptable ranges. So I'm guessing that Dr. Kellon looked at my hay results and the PDFs I sent her of my supplement labels and concluded that I'm within the safe ranges and all is well. In answer to your last question, yes I have had my hay tested and after sending that information along with PDFs of my supplements, Dr. Kellon said it looks okay. She just commented that he didn't need any more iron in his diet. So based on that, I asked if anyone knew of pre-packaged supplements without iron. An overall vitamin - mineral mix without iron. And someone did respond with what I see to be an acceptable supplement without iron that I am considering switching to. Janet |
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Sandra Su
Posted by: "Janet Gerl"Lots of us do. I do. Surely you are purchasing some pre-packaged supplements to make upI purchase prepackaged supplements that aren't mixed, but the selenium supplement does have vit. E in it, since I can't find one w/o. Still, I add the gel caps because I've heard that E in powdered form isn't very effective. Also, the biotin supplement Dr. K recommended is some sort of mix. But the rest is pretty much single ingredients. It is a pain to mix up the stuff every few days, and at the beginning, I griped about it. But getting HorseTech or Uckele would cost more, so I do it. Also, now I have all these stray packages of supplements that'd be wasted if I got a custom mix. I think a lot of other people here do the same. They balance the stuff in their hay to what they add to the supplements so the diet is as totally balanced as possible. Weird, huh, the lengths we'll go to? For an example, here's what Dr. K recommended I add, based on my hay test: For 20 to 22 lbs of hay: Magnesium 1 tbsp as you have been doing is just right Copper 110 mg/day from Poly Copper (= 880 mg of Poly Cu by weight) Zinc 400 mg/day from Poly Zinc ( = 1820 mg of Poly Zinc by weight) Pyridoxine 100 mg (use human, can crush in a coffee grinder) Folic acid 10 mg (use human) Biotin 1/2 oz of Su-Per Biotin from here: <http://www.buygpdirect.com/gpefeed.htm>http://www.buygpdirect.com/gpefeed.htm Selenium 3 mg from E-Se powder at: http://www.uenutrition.com/productlist_20.html#5 Iodine from 3 tablespoons of iodized salt Vitamin E (in addition to what's in the E-Se powder) 2000 IU from Uckele Liquid E-50 or human soft gelcaps, or add 2 oz/day of CocoSoya or Olive Oil and just use an addition 1000 IU/day Ground stabilized flax, or freshly ground flax seed, 4 oz/day. So I'm guessing that Dr. Kellon looked at my hay results and theThe amounts may be safe but not balanced, though. I don't know. But I do know that generally, prepackaged, premixed supplements won't balance to your hay. If yours do, you 're extremely lucky. -- Sandy Su ssu@... |
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And someone did respond with what I see to be an
acceptable supplement without iron that I am considering switching to.Hi Janet ~ Quite a few people here do mix their supplements from scratch from bulk minerals, flax, etc. It can be very cost effective if you have a large herd to supplement. But - it can get tricky for a newbie; I personally don't recommend it until someone has had time to learn what all is involved. Also, some of the custom mixes we can get made up are very economical - I ran my own (horses') requirements through the bulk mineral cost calculator and decided the savings would be so small, I'll continue to let Rod at HorseTech do my work for me : ) Patti K Vail AZ |
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Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...>
--- In EquineCushings@..., "Janet Gerl" <jgerl@...>
wrote: after sending that information along with PDFs of my supplements, Dr.Kellon said it looks okay. She just commented that he didn't need anymore iron in his diet.Janet, I just searched my mail to try to find that message from you and review it but I'm only finding our mails about IR ratios/RISQI and the one you just sent with the iron totals. I don't have your hay analysis or supplement PDFs. Could you have used another address? We use a different emphasis when doing rations than what you will commonly find. Usually rations are looked at for total amounts of individual minerals and the Ca:P ratio but not the ratios of other minerals. High irons are ignored. Excesses of other minerals are also largely ignored. The horse is equipped with mechanisms to handle excess minerals but they can only handle so much before minerals begin to accumulate in the tissues. Eleanor |
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Dr Kellon
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You commented in the last email that in creating vit/min rations . . . "High irons are ignored. Excesses of other minerals are also largely ignored. The horse is equipped with mechanisms to handle excess minerals but they can only handle so much before minerals begin to accumulate in the tissues." Is this also true of IR horses and Cushings horses? If so, why so much attention paid to the subject on this EC list? I also see files that specifically discuss Iron and excessing in the diet. I'm confused. Janet Gerl Office Manager Whitetails Unlimited Inc jgerl@... 1-800-274-5471 Visit our website at: www.whitetailsunlimited.com drkellon@... 11/3/2007 5:03:15 am >>> |
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Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...>
--- In EquineCushings@..., "Janet Gerl" <jgerl@...> wrote:
rations . . . "High irons are ignored. Excesses of other minerals are also largelyminerals but they can only handle so much beforeIt's true of all horses. When I said it is often ignored, I meant by others - not us! Eleanor |
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