I need help for my foundering horse...


mustangs_drafts <mustangs_drafts@...>
 

Hi! I'm new to the group and sorry I don't have time to search the
posts but need quick answers...

My 9.5 year old Mustang mare was diagnoses with laminitis in all 4
feet and took a blood sample. Her thyroid was in the normal range but
her insulin was 298. Tonight she's suffering.

She's been on Bute (2 grams twice a day until last night we tried
backing her off to 1.5 twice a day)starting the 4th. She's worse
since we gave her less and the vet didn't offer anything else. She
was doing better yesterday but this AM she keeps shifting off her
right rear hoof like she did when they first diagnosed her about 3
weeks ago. I thought she had tweaked her back end so misdiagnosed it
until she got stuck and couldn't walk. Another vet came out and took
Xrays of her front feet and said she has slight rotation in the right
front 3 deg. No rotation in the left. Our farrier came out and filed
back her toes and she has very cushy boots on her front feet.

I just lost a 3.5 yr old gelding (my little buddy) to a bacterial
infection on the 3rd so the vet bills are piling up and I was hoping
she'd pull out of this, too. What can I give her to make her better
and quick?

She foundered 4 years ago and has had ouchy feet at times but her
front feet have been slightly tnder since Thanksgiving. The first
time she foundered the vet put her on Bute and Bantomine for 2 weeks
and seemed to do better than this time. She may not have been rotated
at that time.

Cindy


Joan and Dazzle
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "mustangs_drafts"
<mustangs_drafts@...> wrote:
I Cindy,

I'm sorry to hear that your mare is having such a rough time.

With a high insulin level, it's important to get the diet under
control to help make her more comfortable. When you joined, you were
sent the emergency diet. Start her on that immediately.

Soak her hay - 1/2 hour in hot water, or 1 hour in cold. Dump the
excess water somewhere where she can't get to it.

Cut out all grains, all carrots, all cookies, etc. Stop those cold-
turkey. They will only serve to spike the insulin levels, which are
already high.

Get some non-molasses beet pulp - rinse/soak/rinse until the water
runs clear and it's soft. Add iodized salt, 1 tablespoon. Add some
Magnesium, 1.5 grams/day per 500 lbs of body weight. Add vitamin E,
1000 iu's per day per 500 lbs of body weight. Add 2 oz of ground
flaxseed.

We recommend going off bute. It will only mask the pain. You don't
WANT your mare to walk around and further damage the lamina in her
hooves.

Be sure that she has a place to lay down. The bedding should be deep
to help make her more comfortable. Make sure if she's laying down
that she can still reach her soaked hay. It's ok for her to eat
laying down.

I'm sure that tomorrow, more people will jump in. Soak her hay, soak
her hay, soak her hay.... That's really important.

Keep her boots on her. That will help with her comfort level.

And take a deep breath. You've come to the right place.

Joan and Dazzle

Hi! I'm new to the group and sorry I don't have time to search the
posts but need quick answers...

My 9.5 year old Mustang mare was diagnoses with laminitis in all 4
feet and took a blood sample. Her thyroid was in the normal range
but
her insulin was 298. Tonight she's suffering.


Cindy <mustangs_drafts@...>
 

My friend who's been helping me with her in getting a syringe in her
mouth came by tonight and said she is walking like she has an
abscess. We're going to take care of it first thing in the AM since
she'll be off it tonight.

I've been soaking her hay for 2 months and because we are on a
cistern (have our water hauled in) it's a challenge. Amazingly, I've
had her on Vitamin E (just ran out), flax seed, beet pulp (non-
molasses) for well over a year. She hasn't had a treat of any kind in
2.5 months. My vet who also does her acupuncture treatments every 6
weeks or so put her on LMF to help balance what she isn't getting in
her hay. She has me adding salt, Cinnamon, and Body sore (herbal anti-
inflammatory for her arthritis) She's been in a soft bedding for 10
days now and is comfy there. She only moves around as she feels she
needs to. She has arthritis (due to previous owner's Extreme
handling -- so I pretty much rescued her). If she isn't allowed to
move around she gets extremely stiff and sore. We are backing her off
the bute as quickly as possible and try less each time according to
her pain.

I appreciate the info and will check out the emails -- there were so
many to read and I haven't had much time.

Thanks again!
Cindy


--- In EquineCushings@..., "Joan and Dazzle"
<horsies4luv@...> wrote:

--- In EquineCushings@..., "mustangs_drafts"
<mustangs_drafts@> wrote:
I Cindy,

I'm sorry to hear that your mare is having such a rough time.

With a high insulin level, it's important to get the diet under
control to help make her more comfortable. When you joined, you
were
sent the emergency diet. Start her on that immediately.

Soak her hay - 1/2 hour in hot water, or 1 hour in cold. Dump the
excess water somewhere where she can't get to it.

Cut out all grains, all carrots, all cookies, etc. Stop those cold-
turkey. They will only serve to spike the insulin levels, which are
already high.

Get some non-molasses beet pulp - rinse/soak/rinse until the water
runs clear and it's soft. Add iodized salt, 1 tablespoon. Add some
Magnesium, 1.5 grams/day per 500 lbs of body weight. Add vitamin E,
1000 iu's per day per 500 lbs of body weight. Add 2 oz of ground
flaxseed.

We recommend going off bute. It will only mask the pain. You don't
WANT your mare to walk around and further damage the lamina in her
hooves.

Be sure that she has a place to lay down. The bedding should be
deep
to help make her more comfortable. Make sure if she's laying down
that she can still reach her soaked hay. It's ok for her to eat
laying down.

I'm sure that tomorrow, more people will jump in. Soak her hay,
soak
her hay, soak her hay.... That's really important.

Keep her boots on her. That will help with her comfort level.

And take a deep breath. You've come to the right place.

Joan and Dazzle

Hi! I'm new to the group and sorry I don't have time to search
the
posts but need quick answers...

My 9.5 year old Mustang mare was diagnoses with laminitis in all
4
feet and took a blood sample. Her thyroid was in the normal range
but
her insulin was 298. Tonight she's suffering.


Mandy Woods
 

Hi Cindy,
I'll add a comment to Joan's response. LMF feed is high in iron and can worsen IR (if she's IR) I know you said your vet bills are growing so when you can squease in a blood test get INSULIN and GLUCOSE from the same draw. That will diagnosis if she has IR.
Please r/s/r the plain shredded beet pulp even if it says plain. Get her diet down to zero sugar/starch as best you can - then you can add things back in slowly. NO GRAZING! Just soaked hay and r/s/r BP and minerals...the Temporary Diet. Do you know what triggered this? Tell us more about this horse. Yes, she could be abscessing. Hot water/espsom salts and soak!
Mandy and Asher in VA


Cindy <mustangs_drafts@...>
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Mandy Woods"
<bittersweetfarm@...> wrote:
She's a Nevada Butte Mustang and think she's been getting too much of
her meadowgrass (low carb) hay without soaking. We'd let her out of
her pen in the AM before going to work and she probably ate leftover
scraps of the orchard grass hay. She was eating 2nd cutting orchard
grass mix for years and only since we got this last hay it was too
hot (guy loaded it with fertilizer) so think that's what did it. I
think the meadowgrass is low enough in sugar (just sent it in to have
it tested) but think she needs to be limited on the amount.

She's on the LMF NSC feed which is low carb and only gets 16 oz - 2
times a day. Both of her vets said when she's getting soaked hay
she's losing a lot of nutrients and they want her to get a balance
for the time being. She's on a dry lot so there's no grazing. She did
get her insulin and glucose tested and got the results back -- way
too high but it was right after she'd been getting into the other
hay, I think. She's on a strict diet and losing weight -- doing good
but just very tender in her feet and especially her rear feet now.

No sign of abscessing just sore on her right rear toe where the
coffin bone is. She is moving around a bit better today but these
things take time. She hasn't had any sugar of any kind for 2.5 months.

Thanks for the tips...a gal who's a part of this group uses the same
farrier/vet as I do and she gave me a pair of soft ride boots to use.
I tried emailing her but it got kicked back. Thanks, Karen!! She's a
lot more comfy.

Cindy





Hi Cindy,
I'll add a comment to Joan's response. LMF feed is high in iron
and can
worsen IR (if she's IR) I know you said your vet bills are growing
so when
you can squease in a blood test get INSULIN and GLUCOSE from the
same draw.
That will diagnosis if she has IR.
Please r/s/r the plain shredded beet pulp even if it says plain.
Get her
diet down to zero sugar/starch as best you can - then you can add
things
back in slowly. NO GRAZING! Just soaked hay and r/s/r BP and
minerals...the Temporary Diet. Do you know what triggered this?
Tell us
more about this horse. Yes, she could be abscessing. Hot
water/espsom
salts and soak!
Mandy and Asher in VA


Ute <ute@...>
 

I would also check the ACTH levels, just in case because from what
she's getting, she really should not be quite as tender I would
think. Is it all four feet? If it is primarily one hind, then perhaps
something else is going on?

I am also not a fan of processed feeds. I could not see the contents
of the feed online which irks me - I think they should easily have
this info availabe to horse owners. Can you check the label to see if
it does it contain soy in any form?

Ute



--- In EquineCushings@..., "Cindy" <mustangs_drafts@...>
wrote:

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Mandy Woods"
<bittersweetfarm@> wrote:
She's a Nevada Butte Mustang and think she's been getting too much
of
her meadowgrass (low carb) hay without soaking. We'd let her out of
her pen in the AM before going to work and she probably ate
leftover
scraps of the orchard grass hay. She was eating 2nd cutting orchard
grass mix for years and only since we got this last hay it was too
hot (guy loaded it with fertilizer) so think that's what did it. I
think the meadowgrass is low enough in sugar (just sent it in to
have
it tested) but think she needs to be limited on the amount.

She's on the LMF NSC feed which is low carb and only gets 16 oz - 2
times a day. Both of her vets said when she's getting soaked hay
she's losing a lot of nutrients and they want her to get a balance
for the time being. She's on a dry lot so there's no grazing. She
did
get her insulin and glucose tested and got the results back -- way
too high but it was right after she'd been getting into the other
hay, I think. She's on a strict diet and losing weight -- doing
good
but just very tender in her feet and especially her rear feet now.

No sign of abscessing just sore on her right rear toe where the
coffin bone is. She is moving around a bit better today but these
things take time. She hasn't had any sugar of any kind for 2.5
months.

Thanks for the tips...a gal who's a part of this group uses the
same
farrier/vet as I do and she gave me a pair of soft ride boots to
use.
I tried emailing her but it got kicked back. Thanks, Karen!! She's
a
lot more comfy.

Cindy





Hi Cindy,
I'll add a comment to Joan's response. LMF feed is high in iron
and can
worsen IR (if she's IR) I know you said your vet bills are
growing
so when
you can squease in a blood test get INSULIN and GLUCOSE from the
same draw.
That will diagnosis if she has IR.
Please r/s/r the plain shredded beet pulp even if it says plain.
Get her
diet down to zero sugar/starch as best you can - then you can add
things
back in slowly. NO GRAZING! Just soaked hay and r/s/r BP and
minerals...the Temporary Diet. Do you know what triggered
this?
Tell us
more about this horse. Yes, she could be abscessing. Hot
water/espsom
salts and soak!
Mandy and Asher in VA


Sandra Su
 

At 3:46 AM +0000 1/14/08, Cindy wrote:
Both of her vets said when she's getting soaked hay she's losing a
lot of nutrients and they want her to get a balance for the time
being.
I don't know how many nutrients are lost. Some people have
had their soaked hay analyzed. Has anyone had the soaked and unsoaked
hay analysis done on the same hay? How many nutrients are lost? Penny
gets unsoaked hay so it's not pertinent to my case, but this is an
interesting question.
--

Sandy Su
ssu@...


Joan and Dazzle
 

Hi Cindy,

Soaking hay can reduce the sugars up to 30%. The items that you lose
in soaked hay is not nearly as consequential as the high sugars
without soaking.

Most hays are high in iron. They are not "balanced" without testing
and adding minerals. Soaking hay gets rid of some of the stuff that
you don't want - excess sugars, rinsing off surface iron.

Our list is cutting edge. We balance hays using the standards set in
the Nutrient Requirements of the Horse.

One of the things that I've discovered is that you can't tell the
sugar and starch levels of a hay by looking to. The only way to know
is to test. Some hays that look "crappy", that you are sure are low
in sugar and starch are not. And some hays that are "lush" looking,
actually test low!

There are a number of things that will increase sugar levels in the
hay. Time of day of the hay cutting, length of time that the hay
laid on the field before baling, drought conditions, bright days and
cool nights. So a field that was cut from one year to the next can
vary in sugar content. Even hay cut before sunrise will test
differently than hay cut in mid-afternoon.

LMF is low in sugars and very high in iron. If your horse has
issues, we do not recommend that you use it. Many horses are iron
overloaded. That is one of the things that can drive IR.

So, if you want to horse horses to have a "balanced" diet, the only
way to get that is to balance it. To reduce sugar and starch, soak
it, since it's not balanced to begin with.

The difference between soaked and unsoaked hay can make a huge
difference to a laminitic horse!

Joan and Dazzle

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Cindy" <mustangs_drafts@...>
wrote:

She's on the LMF NSC feed which is low carb and only gets 16 oz -
2
times a day. Both of her vets said when she's getting soaked hay
she's losing a lot of nutrients and they want her to get a balance
for the time being.

Cindy


Jean
 

Cindy, Thought I would quickly share my experience with you. When my
IR horse foundered 2 yrs ago, before I discovered this group, she was
stall bound and was given unlimited amounts of hay (because I didn'[t
know better and thats what everyone told me). Her insulin jumped from
199 to 308 in 2 months! Then I discovered this group and the OD
balanced cubes. Her insulin is now 6.9 and she is doing great. I
know it is hard to go against what your vet tells you-but the
experience on this group is real time and priceless. Just thought I'd
share.
Jean and Lady

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Cindy" <mustangs_drafts@...>
wrote:
Both of her vets said when she's getting soaked hay
she's losing a lot of nutrients and they want her to get a balance
for the time being.


 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Cindy" <mustangs_drafts@...>
wrote:

She's a Nevada Butte Mustang
Is she overweight or thin? Can you post her glucose and insulin
numbers? This is her 2nd round with laminitis? What do you think
brought on the first event? Prior to this, what was her work level?

She was eating 2nd cutting orchard
grass mix for years and only since we got this last hay it was too
hot (guy loaded it with fertilizer) so think that's what did it.
Actually, the opposite is true. Stressed grass, either by drought,
cold or lack of nutrients will drive up sugar to save itself.
Healthy, fertilized grass is what we're after, preferably cut early
in the day (after a week of cloudy weather, perfect temperatures and
ideal moisture conditions!)

Both of her vets said when she's getting soaked hay
she's losing a lot of nutrients and they want her to get a balance
for the time being.
Soaking will reduce sugar, surface iron, potassium, sodium notably
and the rest of the major and trace minerals stay fairly constant.
That said, most hays are unbalanced and deficient in some trace
minerals whether they're soaked or not. Once you get your hay
analysis back, let us know - it's much simpler (and cheaper) to
replace (balance) the nutrients with mineral balancing than with a
commercial feed. The feed won't balance your hay, soaked or unsoaked.

She hasn't had any sugar of any kind for 2.5 months.
How much (weight) hay is she getting?

Good work on getting her feet supported. Let's get the rest of her
diet balanced and see if we can get that insulin down.

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)