A horse at my boarding barn in CT has recently been diagnosed w/
tapes. As a result, all horses are being required to worm with either
Equimax or Zimectrin Gold. I have been able to avoid even using this
wormer up until now. I know this combo wormer is to be used w/
caution. Lady is IR.
Would it make a difference if I were to split the dose in 1/2-a.m. and
p.m. or just give the whole tube and watch closely for 24 hrs.
Input?
Thanks, Jean and Lady

You can give her a double dose of the Strongid paste, and it will get rid of
the tapes.
Erin and Nick, Ohio

Erin R. wrote:

You can give her a double dose of the Strongid paste, and it will get
rid of
the tapes.
Erin and Nick, Ohio





------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is NOT true, the strongid paste won't kill tapes.... Go to the
files and read about the worming pastes.
Judy-PA

Ok Judy,
I'm in the DEWORMER file right now and I don't see anything about double strongid not being effective against tapes. There is one file my computer won't open by Dr. K buts its dated 2006.
Which file says otherwise?
Thanks
Mandy and Asher in VA
****************************

From the January 2008 Article in The Horse Journal entitled "Straight Talk
About Tapeworms" written by Craig R. Reinemeyer, DVM, PhD, the TWO current
FDA approved dewormers for tapeworms are:

1. Praziquantel
2. pyrantel pamoate (please note that this is pamoate and NOT tartrate that
is found in daily dewormers).

Regards,
Susie Gordon, MD
EC List Moderator

I couldn't find the information in the files. So I went to the
manufacturer's website.

TapeCare Plus is made by Farnam. This is listed as being effective
against tapes. The dosage on this is 7.2 grams of pyrantel base.

Strongid Paste is made by Pfizer. This is not listed as being
effective against tapes. The dosage on this is 3.6 grams of pyrantel
base.

Two tubes of Strongid Paste has as much pyrantel pamoate as one tube
of Tapecare Plus.

Joan and Dazzle

J Amick wrote:

This is NOT true, the strongid paste won't kill tapes.... Go to the files and read about the worming pastes. Judy-PA

We've been using double dose pyrantel paste OR 30 days of daily pyrantel to treat for tapes for years. Single does pyrantel (Strongid) will not kill tapeworms.

-Abby

--
**************************
Abby Bloxsom
www.advantedgeconsulting.com

One of the questions specifically asked of Craig R. Reinemeyer, DVM,PhD in
the January 2008 issue of The Horse Journal was whether or not a MONTH long
treatment with pyrantel TARTRATE (Strongid C and similar daily dewormers)
could eliminate tapeworms.

Quoting directly from his response to The Horse Journal, January 2008 page
22, Volume 15, Number 1:

"There is some preliminary evidence that supports the cestocidal activity of
daily pyrantel tartrate. Because this is an extra-label application,
however, the use of daily dewormers for tapeworm control can't be
recommended".

Again, this question to him was specifically wrt a MONTH long daily
treatment with pyrantel tartrate. Dr. Reinemeyer has a PhD in veterinary
parasitology.

Regards,
Susie Gordon, MD
EC List Moderator

I was under the impression, as is the vet requiring use of Zimectrin
gold, that the only FDA approved dewormer for tape is Praziquantel.
Also, in the catalogs, Strongid is not listed for tapes, just the
two combos.
I am between a rock and a hard place here. I don't like being told
what to do by a barn manager, but they are requiring this action.
Guurrgh!! My original question is:
Is there less risk of side effect to my IR horse is I split the dose
of Prazi in 1/2--- a.m. and p.m.?

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Susie Gordon, MD"
<whitneygt@...> wrote:

From the January 2008 Article in The Horse Journal

entitled "Straight Talk

About Tapeworms" written by Craig R. Reinemeyer, DVM, PhD, the TWO

current

FDA approved dewormers for tapeworms are:

1. Praziquantel
2. pyrantel pamoate (please note that this is pamoate and NOT

tartrate that

is found in daily dewormers).

Regards,
Susie Gordon, MD
EC List Moderator

Jean,
Dr. Kellon recommended TapeCarePlus for tapes (which is actually double strongid and even cheaper than buying two tubes of the regular strongidP) and the packaging specifically says for Tapes. Farnam makes it.
Cant answer your Prazi question...maybe you could show your Barn Manager the data on TapeCarePlus.
Mandy and Asher in VA

Doesn't TapeCare Plus have another ingredient added for control of
tapeworms. Are we sure it is just pyrantel?
Jean and Lady

jeanz95,

I do not have an answer for you wrt splitting the dose. Dr. Kellon will
have to comment upon that.

I would refer your vet to the January 2008 issue of Horse Journal. The
information I am giving you is the CURRENT info wrt FDA approved wormers for
tapeworms. Pyrantel pamoate is LISTED as an FDA approved wormer for
tapeworms. You can also direct your vet to the FDA veterinary division in
case he feels that the info from this website is incorrect or biased in any
way.

Regards,
Susie Gordon, MD
EC List Moderator

Reading the label on Tape Care Plus it is pyrantel pamoate only.

I asked Dr. Kellon about the worming issue on 12/3/07- you can look it up.
But here I have copied the message for all:
--- In EquineCushings@... <EquineCushings%40yahoogroups.com>,
"Erin R." <figure1789@...> wrote:

Hi Dr. Kellon,
Basically my question is: "Which wormer is the safest for Cushing's
horse?" (I used to use the Zimecterin Gold that has praziquantal in

it and

read in the files that it should be used with care. I also got

confused

with the 5 day purge and use of banamine. Then that 2 other wormers

show

strongyle resistance.

Direct quoted response from Dr. Kellon:

Praziquantel caused elevated blood glucose and blockage of glucose
utilization by cells in a rat model of diabetes. We don't know if
anything similar happens in IR horses or not, so until we do it might
be wise to avoid it at least with uncontrolled IR.

For tapeworms, you can use either double dose Strongid paste or a month
of the daily Strongid pellets.

Ivermectin will also removal larval stages except for encysted small
strongyles. Only the double dose 5 day fenbendazole or moxidectin can
get those, but you can avoid the problem in the first place by using an
intensive deworming schedule with Cushing's horses. Ivermectin at 6 to
8 week intervals is the most reliable. Cheap insurance.

Eleanor


On 1/19/08, Susie Gordon, MD <whitneygt@...> wrote:

Reading the label on Tape Care Plus it is pyrantel pamoate only.






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I don't like being told
what to do by a barn manager,

I wouldn't like that either.YOUR horse,YOUR fee....Listen up, Barn
Manager.

Is there less risk of side effect to my IR horse is I split the
dose of Prazi in 1/2--- a.m. and p.m.?

If a double dose is called for it means at the same time,not split.
(I think you'll find that Strongid-P is VERY safe.)

Lorna

Also, I set up this sample worming schedule after reading in the files. I
sent it to Dr. Kellon for her approval, but did not receive a response. I
believe it was back when she was having email troubles.

Maybe someone could evaluate it now...

Erin and Nick, Ohio

Worming Schedule Based on 8 week Intervals Using Paste Wormer

Worming Drug Brand Name(s)
Comments

#1 Ivermectin Zimecterin, Ivercare,
etc. For bots

#2 Fenbendazole Panacur, Safe-
Guard 2x dosage for 5 days; kills encysted small
strongyles; best used in Winter & Spring prior to pyrantal pamoate

#3 Pyrantal Pamoate Strongid T, Rotectin
2 2x dosage for 2 consecutive days; kills tapeworms

#4 Ivermectin Zimecterin, Ivercare,
etc. For bots

#5 Fenbendazole Panacur, Safe- Guard
2x dosage for 5 days; kills encysted small strongyles; best used in
Winter & Spring prior to pyrantal pamoate

#6 Pyrantal Pamoate Strongid T, Rotectin
2 2x dosage for 5 days; kills tapeworms

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Mandy Woods"
<bittersweetfarm@...> wrote:

Jean,
Dr. Kellon recommended TapeCarePlus for tapes (which is actually

double

strongid and even cheaper than buying two tubes of the regular

strongidP)

Right. TapeCare Plus is nothing but double dose pyrantel pamoate.

As for the one month daily dewormer, I did that interview with Dr.
Reinemeyer. The reservation about the daily Strongid dewormer
(pyrantel tartrate) is because it does not have formal FDA approval
as yet. The FDA approval process with dewormers normally includes
postmortem examinations and actual parasite counts. The study
supporting the daily dewormer can be found here:

http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/aaep/1998/Kivipelt.pdf

In that, the daily dewormer took longer to work but actually worked
better than a triple pyrantel pamoate treatment. Horses treated with
the single high dose as a one time treatment were passing eggs again
after only 2 weeks. The TapeCare Plus packaging does not mention
retreating at two weeks, but many vets will because of that study.
Horses on the daily dosing remained negative in fecals for the entire
26 week trial.

To be entirely accurate, all the study shows is that these horses did
not pass tapeworm eggs when on the daily dewormer. Whether they were
actually wormfree or the treatment just suppressed egg laying can't
really be determined and it doesn't matter on a herd
health/decreasing contamination basis although it obviously does to
the individual horse! However, because this is a neuromuscular
paralyzing agent in the parasites, it's more *likely* (but unproven)
that they are dead than inactive.

Personally, I often use the month long daily dewormer treatment as a
first step with animals that are debilitated, fragile/compromised or
suspected to have large worm burdens. For that month, it prevents the
problem from getting any worse and may eventually remove some adult
parasites in a gradual fashion. I then follow this with ivermectin.
Other vets have other methods.

As for splitting praziquantel, I wouldn't do it. The dosage of these
drugs is carefully determined by titration studies to find the
minimum effective dose. When you drop below that dose, significantly
fewer parasites will be actually be killed (which is another method
sometimes used with heavily parasitized horses, low dose = lower kill
= less reaction).

Eleanor

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Erin R." <figure1789@...> wrote:

Also, I set up this sample worming schedule after reading in the

files.

What you need really depends on the situation. It ranges from highly
intensive for foals and horses with poor immunity, to often nothing at
all for healthy adults turned out on large pastures with very low
exposures.

Parasitologists are split right down the middle about whether to rotate
or not. Some say it discourages resistance. Others say it encourages
it. There's no solid data to support either side.

If you have a high risk horse, ivermectin only is advisable unless
you're doing regular fecal exams. It and moxidectin are the only drug
agents with no documented resistance here yet. Eight week intervals are
really only appropriate for ivermectin. With pyrantel or fenbendazole,
you can have egg reappearance on fecal samples in 5 to 6 weeks.

Deworming protocols really should be individualized to both the animal
and the exposure level.

Eleanor

ALl I can tell you guys is that on even years I faithfully paste
wormed sometimes rotating chemical classes- sometimes strickly
Ivermectin.. and odd years I did the daily wormer (double dosing 2
tubes of Strongid for tapes.

And thought I was controlling tapes and other parasites...

When Parziquantel was approved in the USA- I dosed one of my horses
and he had the symptoms of a large tape worm kill so I'm sure he had
them- as his whole demeamor and appetite was changed forever from
that day on. (He no longer acted starved 100% of the time- and
actually lost some fat-).

In addition I had a horse previously - who passed a tape segement in
his manure .. so I obviously wan't getting them years ago either..


Personally I don't think the double/triple dosing of Strongid gets
tapes.. I had a horse previously who passed a tape segement in his
manure ..

I gave the daily wormer a shot - but

I've gone back to paste wormers and De worming for tapes with
praziquantel twice per year (their life span is about 8 months per
Pfizer)

I realize Prazi may not be the best thing for an IR or chushings
horse- so decisions will have to be made on ondividual basis- like
may not wormong during the months you know you have a hormone swing
anyway (Aug/Sept and Feb.)

Barb

At 6:31 PM +0000 1/19/08, Lorna wrote:

> I don't like being told

what to do by a barn manager,

I wouldn't like that either.YOUR horse,YOUR fee....Listen up, Barn Manager.

I can understand that the barn manager wants every horse to
be wormed for tapes at the same time, though. If one horse isn't
wormed, that could reinfect the others. However, that might be OK (to
not worm one horse) if that horse is always kept totally separate
from the others so the others don't ever come in contact with that
one horse's manure.
I approve of having all the horses on the same worming
schedule so that none can reinfect others.
--

Sandy Su
ssu@...