Hello friends. I am also new to your group and let me
just thank you for being here. I found you a week or
two ago..and I took some time to read all the emails
and most of your files. I have been totally blown away
and felt like I was drowning in all the information.
It wasn't until yesterday I got a grip of myself. I
think I am beginning to swim now. I have copied off
the Case study form and I am filling it out. I am
resending my hay to be retested for all minerals etc.
(I only tested for ESC (result 6.5) and Starch (result
.4) last month), and I am meeting with my vet this
coming week to do the additional blood tests (did
some tests on 12/18/07 like Cortisol (6.5 result),
Insulin (778 result), glucose (5.9 result),
insulin:glucose ratio (132 result), T4 (0.5 result)
on your Case Study form.

I live in Steamboat Springs Colorado, and was given a
very fat mini/Welsh pony cross (named Blitzen) in
4/06 as a companion for my old thoroughbred. I was
asked to put him on diet, which I did.."a Jane Fonda
work out program" if you will. He lost weight thru
excercise and diet and was doing great, until he
crashed and burned in 4/07, he could not walk....And
no one knew what was wrong with him..he looked great
but he could not walk!!!!...except they said he
foundered..but now I know he did not have any rotation
of his coffin bone....but he did have horrible
laminitis. ( I have xrays)

It was not until December 07, I started to
understand....thru' constant research..He is IR...and
I don't know about the Cushings yet....I put him on
the emergency diet, (7.5lbs of hay measured by fish
scale per day spread out over 3/4 times a day) moved
him to an indoor facility (out of the cold and snow) ,
continued with the 4 week trims, glued on mini
heartbar shoes to temporarily help with the lack of
circulation, did a toe resection to take the pull of
the laminae). He has really come around and is doing
much better...he walks and walks in the indoor
arena.....but I am not stopping here.

I am grateful for all your imput. Tired but grateful.
I look forward to improving Blitzen from here forward
and I also look forward to keeping my other 2
Tennessee Walkers (9 and 10) in very good metabolic
condition. My mare of 30 years crossed over the
Rainbow Bridge last August. Both she and Blitzen are
teaching me about the importance of diet and
excercise..a rare gift at this point in my horsey
career. I will submit my case study as soon as I can,
and I know you will all be there to help.


Thank you so much.

Roxanna Shores




____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

Hi Roxanna,
Welcome to the group. Thats great that you've attacked the files and started the Diet and Trim! Of course you were 'drowning' in all the information! Just like the rest of us when we joined....but it will all click and you'll see fabulous results. Blitzen's insulin number is sky high so you really lucked out with low ESC+Starch hay! Hopefully, you won't need to soak it...but some of us have sensitive horses that still need more sugar removed. Watch his feet for pulses and heat. The case study page is still under construction - Robin said she'd tell us when its up...so hold off there or you'll just frustrate yourself with the Error message.

Until the hoof gurus get here....let me make a comment on the shoes you have on him. I think you'll find that most of the new trimmers (not farriers) are leaning to shoes restrict blood flow. Heartbars are not indicated here. What Blitzen needs are pads and mini boots! You may have to make some out of duct tape for now. I know you can purchase mini boots.

When you schedule your next blood pull for the ACTH(pending on his age)/insulin and glucose, do it early in the week, in a quiet barn. Keep him quiet. Do NOT fast Blitzen. Give him his hay 2-3 hours before the pull.

The DDT'S/E's work. Ask all the questions you like and we'll help.
Mandy and Asher in VA

Hi Mandy..thank you for your help....

Re; soaking the hay...how should I make the decision
to soak or not soak...should I decide to do it based
only upon his insulin level....since we know it is
soooo high, whether he looks better (physically) or
not??? Just do it anyway and is there a do it until???
with a sky high insulin level like his????? I did soak
his hay in September and November...anything to aid in
the laminitis attacks..but I was not consistent. I did
not feel Blitzen got any better until I cut his hay
portions down to 7.5lbs/day, and moved him to a warmer
place.

OK, interested in the hoof information..before I moved
Blitzen to an inside barn, I bought easy boots and
pads...prior to that, I did use the blue construction
foam and duct tape..religiously...but he still walked
like Frankenstein. Help me with the heartbar thing..it
may have just been a timing issue for me..maybe I was
in the right direction with the boots...What are you
suggesting at this point..decrease
circulation/restrict blood flow..ummmmm..talk to me,
give me your thoughts.

Blitzen is 14. When I pull blood..why early in the
weeK? It is scheduled for this Wednesday at 1:00. OK
on the quiet barn,,got that covered..OK on the food
and the timing of it. Here are my blood questions..
When I pull the blood, how many of the tests listed on
the case study can I test for...I know this is going
to sound temporarily insaine..but can 1 blood draw
test for the all the items on the case study list..can
you help me organize this thing better? You know I
have information on T4, I have Cortisol and glucose
and insulin..should I start all over again? I am a tad
bit confused...Can you break it down for me? Give me a
plan of attack for these blood tests? I can pull the
blood and give it to the vet.......I want to tell the
vet what I want to do...not leave it up to him to tell
me. I was not planing to do the DEX test on
Blitzen..not until I feel more comfortable about it
and whether I am risking him for another laminitis
attack???

Oh boy, thanks for being there!!!!!!!

Roxanna

.--- Mandy Woods <bittersweetfarm@...> wrote:

Hi Roxanna,
Welcome to the group. Thats great that you've
attacked the files and
started the Diet and Trim! Of course you were
'drowning' in all the
information! Just like the rest of us when we
joined....but it will all
click and you'll see fabulous results. Blitzen's
insulin number is sky high
so you really lucked out with low ESC+Starch hay!
Hopefully, you won't need
to soak it...but some of us have sensitive horses
that still need more sugar
removed. Watch his feet for pulses and heat. The
case study page is still
under construction - Robin said she'd tell us when
its up...so hold off
there or you'll just frustrate yourself with the
Error message.

Until the hoof gurus get here....let me make a
comment on the shoes you have
on him. I think you'll find that most of the new
trimmers (not farriers)
are leaning to shoes restrict blood flow. Heartbars
are not indicated here.
What Blitzen needs are pads and mini boots! You
may have to make some out
of duct tape for now. I know you can purchase mini
boots.

When you schedule your next blood pull for the
ACTH(pending on his
age)/insulin and glucose, do it early in the week,
in a quiet barn. Keep
him quiet. Do NOT fast Blitzen. Give him his hay
2-3 hours before the
pull.

The DDT'S/E's work. Ask all the questions you like
and we'll help.
Mandy and Asher in VA

____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

Roxanna,
I believe you said your hay was under 10% ESC+starch but some horses/ponies cant handle it (mine) so soaking will reduce the sugars even more. Feed 2% Blitzen's body weight, 1.5% if he needs to lose a couple of pounds and 2.5% if he needs to gain or its going to be freezing cold! You have the scales, use polynets and snaphooks, an 18 gallon storage container and a cinder block to weight the hay flake down. Or some people use a Coleman cooler. His insulin was that high on soaked hay? Was he grazing also? No grains, treats, red salt blocks, treats etc. Bed him on shavings - not straw. You should be able to feel his pulses subside from this. Can you detect a digital pulse? Are his feet hot? or warm? or cool? Does he have puffs above his eyes? Cresty neck? PD/PU?

Re; soaking the hay...how should I make the decision
to soak or not soak...should I decide to do it based
only upon his insulin level....since we know it is
soooo high, whether he looks better (physically) or
not??? Just do it anyway and is there a do it until???
with a sky high insulin level like his????? I did soak
his hay in September and November...anything to aid in
the laminitis attacks..but I was not consistent. I did
not feel Blitzen got any better until I cut his hay
portions down to 7.5lbs/day, and moved him to a warmer
place.

**************************************
I am not a foot/hoof guru but heartbars are not indicated for laminitis or founder now. He will be more comfortable in pads and boots. You can cut pads out of almost anything. Some use neoprene, or Walmart exercise snap together play mats for kids, Lowes has the adult version in gray, I use antifatigue mats from Lowes...3 foot long roll, buy one foot and you can cut lots of pads! Is his trim correct? Have a look at www.hoofrehab.com for pictures and details. You want good circulation. You do NOT want to restrict blood flow! Hand walking him is good if he's willing and able. Exercise, controlled exercise is a good way to get the healing process started.

OK, interested in the hoof information..before I moved
Blitzen to an inside barn, I bought easy boots and
pads...prior to that, I did use the blue construction
foam and duct tape..religiously...but he still walked
like Frankenstein. Help me with the heartbar thing..it
may have just been a timing issue for me..maybe I was
in the right direction with the boots...What are you
suggesting at this point..decrease
circulation/restrict blood flow..ummmmm..talk to me,
give me your thoughts.

***********************************
Since he's 14, I would test him for Cushings. This is an age when it starts to show....subtly. The ACTH test is a simple blood pull into a chilled purple top tube. Please read the Cornell files to learn the special handling. It must be chilled, spun and seperated within 1-3 hours of the draw. Insulin can be tested from the plasma drawn. You'll need 2mls of plasma for this test. You need to fill a red top for glucose, thyroid and any other tests you might want. Wed. is not good unless the lab you're using is close to you. Many of us use Cornell. We recommend pulling blood on Mon or Tue. We ship samples overnight air so when they receive them they process them immediately. The plasma must be frozen and shipped on ice. The others (serum) can be cold. You don't need cortisol. A thyroid panel is about $35 at Cornell. Their prices are listed. Since Blitzen is sore, do NOT do a Dex Suppression test. It could push him over the edge into founder. The ACTH tells you more anyway and its safe.

Blitzen is 14. When I pull blood..why early in the
weeK? It is scheduled for this Wednesday at 1:00. OK
on the quiet barn,,got that covered..OK on the food
and the timing of it. Here are my blood questions..
When I pull the blood, how many of the tests listed on
the case study can I test for...I know this is going
to sound temporarily insaine..but can 1 blood draw
test for the all the items on the case study list..can
you help me organize this thing better? You know I
have information on T4, I have Cortisol and glucose
and insulin..should I start all over again? I am a tad
bit confused...Can you break it down for me? Give me a
plan of attack for these blood tests? I can pull the
blood and give it to the vet.......I want to tell the
vet what I want to do...not leave it up to him to tell
me. I was not planing to do the DEX test on
Blitzen..not until I feel more comfortable about it
and whether I am risking him for another laminitis
attack???
**************************************
Oh boy, thanks for being there!!!!!!!

Glad to help!
Mandy and Asher in VA

Thank You Mandy..I will proceed..Yes, his insulin was
THAT high on NO grain, NO grazing...he was not grazing
for over 1 year....strickly on hay always, and he does
not need to loose any more weight. He had no treats..I
tried the baked treats, recommeded for IR, but he spit
them out.) He is on shavings in a big stall.

I understand about the ACHT test. Thank You. Will the
results from that particular test be the main blood
test that indicates whether he is cushings or not?

No digital pulse...no puffiness above the eyes, yes,
some what of a cresty neck, very loose cresty neck and
fatty pockets in all the places except over the
eyes...but not overally fatty pockets.....if that make
any sense. Feet are normal..he is walking up a storm
these days and trotting...he is put in the indorr
arena for several hours a day and he has created a
little track all the way around the arena. He rolls
and jumps around these days....this is the best he has
moved since April 07. I try to look at him
positively..not , oh my goodness how can you be OK
with that high of an Insulin level!

One more thing.....why do I need to weigh the hay
flake down? I put the hay in a hay net and weigh if
directly on the scale...then I put the mesured hay for
the day in a manure type bucket.

Roxanna
--- Mandy Woods <bittersweetfarm@...> wrote:

Roxanna,
I believe you said your hay was under 10% ESC+starch
but some horses/ponies
cant handle it (mine) so soaking will reduce the
sugars even more. Feed 2%
Blitzen's body weight, 1.5% if he needs to lose a
couple of pounds and 2.5%
if he needs to gain or its going to be freezing
cold! You have the scales,
use polynets and snaphooks, an 18 gallon storage
container and a cinder
block to weight the hay flake down. Or some people
use a Coleman cooler.
His insulin was that high on soaked hay? Was he
grazing also? No grains,
treats, red salt blocks, treats etc. Bed him on
shavings - not straw. You
should be able to feel his pulses subside from this.
Can you detect a
digital pulse? Are his feet hot? or warm? or cool?
Does he have puffs
above his eyes? Cresty neck? PD/PU?

Re; soaking the hay...how should I make the

decision

to soak or not soak...should I decide to do it

based

only upon his insulin level....since we know it is
soooo high, whether he looks better (physically)

or

not??? Just do it anyway and is there a do it

until???

with a sky high insulin level like his????? I did

soak

his hay in September and November...anything to

aid in

the laminitis attacks..but I was not consistent. I

did

not feel Blitzen got any better until I cut his

hay

portions down to 7.5lbs/day, and moved him to a

warmer

place.

**************************************
I am not a foot/hoof guru but heartbars are not
indicated for laminitis or
founder now. He will be more comfortable in pads
and boots. You can cut
pads out of almost anything. Some use neoprene, or
Walmart exercise snap
together play mats for kids, Lowes has the adult
version in gray, I use
antifatigue mats from Lowes...3 foot long roll, buy
one foot and you can cut
lots of pads! Is his trim correct? Have a look at
www.hoofrehab.com for
pictures and details. You want good circulation.
You do NOT want to
restrict blood flow! Hand walking him is good if
he's willing and able.
Exercise, controlled exercise is a good way to get
the healing process
started.

OK, interested in the hoof information..before I

moved

Blitzen to an inside barn, I bought easy boots and
pads...prior to that, I did use the blue

construction

foam and duct tape..religiously...but he still

walked

like Frankenstein. Help me with the heartbar

thing..it

may have just been a timing issue for me..maybe I

was

in the right direction with the boots...What are

you

suggesting at this point..decrease
circulation/restrict blood flow..ummmmm..talk to

me,

give me your thoughts.

***********************************
Since he's 14, I would test him for Cushings. This
is an age when it starts
to show....subtly. The ACTH test is a simple blood
pull into a chilled
purple top tube. Please read the Cornell files to
learn the special
handling. It must be chilled, spun and seperated
within 1-3 hours of the
draw. Insulin can be tested from the plasma drawn.
You'll need 2mls of
plasma for this test. You need to fill a red top
for glucose, thyroid and
any other tests you might want. Wed. is not good
unless the lab you're
using is close to you. Many of us use Cornell. We
recommend pulling blood
on Mon or Tue. We ship samples overnight air so
when they receive them
they process them immediately. The plasma must be
frozen and shipped on
ice. The others (serum) can be cold. You don't need
cortisol. A thyroid
panel is about $35 at Cornell. Their prices are
listed. Since Blitzen is
sore, do NOT do a Dex Suppression test. It could
push him over the edge
into founder. The ACTH tells you more anyway and
its safe.

Blitzen is 14. When I pull blood..why early in the
weeK? It is scheduled for this Wednesday at 1:00.

OK

on the quiet barn,,got that covered..OK on the

food

and the timing of it. Here are my blood

questions..

When I pull the blood, how many of the tests

listed on

the case study can I test for...I know this is

going

to sound temporarily insaine..but can 1 blood draw
test for the all the items on the case study

list..can

you help me organize this thing better? You know I
have information on T4, I have Cortisol and

glucose

and insulin..should I start all over again? I am a

tad

bit confused...Can you break it down for me? Give

me a

plan of attack for these blood tests? I can pull

the

blood and give it to the vet.......I want to tell

the

vet what I want to do...not leave it up to him to

tell

me. I was not planing to do the DEX test on
Blitzen..not until I feel more comfortable about

it

and whether I am risking him for another laminitis
attack???
**************************************
Oh boy, thanks for being there!!!!!!!

Glad to help!
Mandy and Asher in VA

____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

--- In EquineCushings@..., Roxanna Shores
<happytrailsranch1018@...> wrote:

I understand about the ACHT test. Thank You. Will the
results from that particular test be the main blood
test that indicates whether he is cushings or not?

..YES and we know that he is I.R with the VERY high insulin numbers you
quoted.

One more thing.....why do I need to weigh the hay
flake down? I put the hay in a hay net and weigh if
directly on the scale...then I put the mesured hay for
the day in a manure type bucket.

..Many was I believe saying, that with this high insluin you need to
soak the hay. To soak the hay properly you need to weigh it down with
something other wise if floats to the top of the container and only get
half soaked.
Angela
jarrahbrearbreazebridie

Thank You Angela.

Roxanna
--- jarrahbrearebreazebridie <jarrah@...>
wrote:

--- In EquineCushings@..., Roxanna
Shores
<happytrailsranch1018@...> wrote:

I understand about the ACHT test. Thank You. Will

the

results from that particular test be the main

blood

test that indicates whether he is cushings or not?

..YES and we know that he is I.R with the VERY high
insulin numbers you
quoted.

One more thing.....why do I need to weigh the hay
flake down? I put the hay in a hay net and weigh

if

directly on the scale...then I put the mesured hay

for

the day in a manure type bucket.

..Many was I believe saying, that with this high
insluin you need to
soak the hay. To soak the hay properly you need to
weigh it down with
something other wise if floats to the top of the
container and only get
half soaked.
Angela
jarrahbrearbreazebridie

____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

At 2:17 PM +0000 1/21/08, Roxanna Shores wrote:

.....why do I need to weigh the hay flake down? I put the hay in a
hay net and weigh if directly on the scale...then I put the mesured
hay for the day in a manure type bucket.

You weight it down when you soak it so that it's completely
submerged. That has nothing to do with weighing the hay.
--

Sandy Su
ssu@...