Hi Pauline,

I use that & the chaff mainly to admin their supplements

Good.

I'm 6ft & Jack is a >shetland pony-my knees would drag on the

ground!

LOL.That would definitely slow him down!I was thinking of HIS getting
the exercise,as in lunging?Or hand walking/trotting,in which case you
could join in,as long as you can keep up.LOL(small joke)

As you said he's not IR, that you know of,and you seem to be on top
of that anyway.
Yes,the minerals are important.

I'm watching what Patti is saying,too,to fine-tune my own approach.

Lorna
Ontario

--- In EquineCushings@..., "plwoodbury"
<DesertHorses@...> wrote:

-

I'm going to jump in too as I've been looking at your hay -
the protein at 7% is probably ok unless Jack is into fairly steady

work.
HI Patti
I appreciate you jumping in - see previous post re Jacks exercise
issue.
Actually - once he gets better I would like to try him in harness,
aside from he dangling knees, my backside won't fit in his saddle.

except it's likely low in calcium, your hay - at .22% calcium just

barely provides the NRC
will follow up minerals & add that to the oz contacts

I see they also have a new product called Fiber-Beet

http://www.britishhorsefeeds.com/fibre-beet.aspx

which has higher fiber (from alfalfa) and a little higher calcium,

the DE is slightly lower

than Speedi-Beet

will look into that feed- >

& would prefer to mix my own minerals. I am not aware yet of anyone

in oz that would make a mix up- but that will be another challenge &
thanks for the maths - it's so simple when I see it written down

cheers
pauline & jack

--- In EquineCushings@..., "briarskingstonnet"
<briars@...> wrote:

,

So the DE is 2 Mcal/lb as opposed to 2% .
That seems high.
I noticed that the sample is Rye grass,as well as Phalaris(I'm

not

familiar with this...yet),and something beginning with F but cut
off.Is that Fescue?
How much Rye is in that hay , do you know?

HI Lorna

Yes - the f is fescue & no idea how much rye is in bales- visibly
there doesn't seem a lot.

>& speedybeet 45gm(dry)

Really? 45?

Yes. I use approx 1 cup between both horses. I use that & the chaff
mainly to admin their supplements

.

> .Or giving more exercise,if possible.Or both.

I agree with Angela that checking his glucose and insulin might not
be a bsd idea at this point,if finances allow.(I think you said
that,Angela?)

I will be doing the full screen, the exercise bit brings a wry grin
to my face-I'm 6ft & Jack is a shetland pony-my knees would drag on
the ground!

Not sure what you mean here,by 'safe'?Sugar-wise?

I understand the safer grass concept & will be in trouble in a month
or two- but at this stage the conditions I consider to be safe.

I will still look into the minerals tho

thanks again
Tall Pauline & little Jack

Jack is also getting wheaten chaff & speedybeet
Wheaten chaff 200gms twice daily & speedybeet 45gm(dry) & 628gm
(wet) twice daily.I use wheaten chaff as it is what I call "diet
chaff"-

Pauline -
I'm going to jump in too as I've been looking at your hay -
the protein at 7% is probably ok unless Jack is into fairly steady work.
The approximate pound of chaff twice a day won't make a huge difference with minerals -
except it's likely low in calcium, your hay - at .22% calcium just barely provides the NRC
requirement and could use a boost. One way to do this would be to increase the Speedi-
Beet and decrease the chaff. The protein's about the same, calories a little higher,
sugar/starch likely a lot lower - a pound per day (450g) will add 3.2g of calcium.
I see they also have a new product called Fiber-Beet http://www.britishhorsefeeds.com/fibre-beet.aspx
which has higher fiber (from alfalfa) and a little higher calcium, the DE is slightly lower
than Speedi-Beet
As Angela pointed out - balancing minerals is very important. For starters, you'll want to
at least mineral balance the hay portion of his diet. The 120 mg copper, 370 mg zinc and
200 mg manganese needed for your hay is similar to the proportions used in many
commercial supplements - the hardest part will be finding something without iron. Using
something like KER's Perform or Nutrequin might work. (I have no idea if loose/bulk
minerals are available for you or if you are prepared to take on mixing your own).
Oh - and you asked about how to figure % of bodyweight -
it really doesn't matter if you use kilos or pounds -
for 1.5%, multiply Jack's body weight by 0.015 - so 1.5% of 200 kg is 3 kg,
2% of 200 kg is 4 kg - that's the minimum range of forage/hay he needs daily.

Patti K
Vail AZ

Hi Pauline,

So the DE is 2 Mcal/lb as opposed to 2% .

That seems high.

I noticed that the sample is Rye grass,as well as Phalaris(I'm not
familiar with this...yet),and something beginning with F but cut
off.Is that Fescue?
How much Rye is in that hay , do you know?

Wheaten chaff 200gms twice daily

You might want to check to see what this adds.If you ever have weight
or foot issues I'd drop it .
I'd probably even drop it anyway unless you have a particular reason
for using it.

>& speedybeet 45gm(dry)

Really? 45?

In any case,I'd be ok with that.


>will suss out what mineral they contain.

Great.It's everything that goes into his mouth when we're doing the
balancing act.

But does that also mean that if he started to have a weight issue.
ie too much,that I would have to start soaking again- even with

8.9%?

It depends on what else you are still feeding.Also some horses/ponies
can't tolerate as much sugar/starch as others so you have to go by
what *he* is telling you.
If he's not IR,then maybe just cutting back a tad on the amount fed
would be the answer.Or giving more exercise,if possible.Or both.
I agree with Angela that checking his glucose and insulin might not
be a bsd idea at this point,if finances allow.(I think you said
that,Angela?)

Also, just how important is it to add the minerals?

I would say 'really' ,if your hay is deficient in them,and that is
his main food.

>as he is a "free range" pony- ie access to what I

consider "reasonabaly" safe paddocks-

Not sure what you mean here,by 'safe'?Sugar-wise?

My feeling is that if he has Cushings ,he' already compromised,so his
body would be better able to cope if he's getting the
mineral/vitamins it needs.If you don't know what is pasture provides
I would balance to his hay,if it were me.

Lorna
Kingston

--- In EquineCushings@..., "ponyjackpal" <takarri@...>
wrote:

Hi Angela
correct on the wheaten chaff -approx 200gm twice daily & is

cushings only.

...Have you decided to check his Insulin and glucose whan you do the
ACTH? If I remember these were not exspensive and can be done with
same blood pull?
What are the herbs for?
Jack also had a severe muscular?shoulder injury. His herbs up until
today have been white willow bark for pain management

Dandelion powder - for gentle detox as we made the transition off
Foundergard, Mag Phos for the muscle spasm in his shoulder
Silica for ongoing support for his feet Yarrow- to replace the

founder gard & support the wwb Hawthorn berry powder as a
vasodialator.
.....I would suggest you contact Dr. K on this. I am sure she can be
of great benefit regarding this issue and some alternative
suggestions with the Cushing's when you see what the blood work comes
back along with the chasterbery and Pergolide for additional
information.
...If he starts to have weight issue you can feed at 1.5% of ideal
body weight,

Can someone run the math conversion by me again? How do I calculate
1.5% of ideal b/w from 200kg

....200kg =440lbs x 1.5% = 6.60 lbs or = 3.0kg
....200kg =440lbs x 2.0% = 8.00 lbs or = 3.6kg

A sealed grazing muzzle That's where the problems start- as soon as
the muzzle is on he lies down/ sits down & sulks- will not move - &
has stayed like that for up to 6 hrs.
.... A bit of a shock for Jack I bet. There is the dry lot solution
or try him with a hay bag and feed him with this on. I sent mine out
with this on and supported the bottom with leather or plastic hot
glued. The hay bag does not seem to be as invasive as the muzzle to
start and you can easily feed them with it on. I then lengthened the
amount of time, after the food was eaten prior to removal. A positive
approach with the food and they wanted the hay bag on. I then switch
to the grazing muzzle with food in it and then eventually the sealed
grazing muzzle. I aways put the muzzle on with some diet hay cubes
inside and I will go out and drop the cubs into the muzzle also
between feeds.
Angela
jarrahbrearbereazebridie

--- In EquineCushings@..., "jarrahbrearebreazebridie"
<jarrah@...> wrote:

Jack is only having a small amount

of wheat right Pauline? And he is not I.R only Cushing's?

Hi Angela
correct on the wheaten chaff -approx 200gm twice daily & is cushings
only.

He is also on a blend of herbs that I tweak from time to time- I
will suss out what mineral they contain.

What are the herbs for?

Jack also had a severe muscular?shoulder injury. Just happened
overnight. The eventual proccess of diagnosing shoulder injury led to
his diagnosis of cushings. His myotherapist mentioned how hard it was
to get to his sore spots as he had a thick coat & I happenend to
mention that he didn't seem to shed well this year & she said he
might have cushings..mmm thought only dogs got that.. & hence the
start of my journey.
His herbs up until today have been
white willow bark for pain management
Dandelion powder - for gentle detox as we made the transition off
Foundergard,
Mag Phos for the muscle spasm in his shoulder
Silica for ongoing support for his feet
Yarrow- to replace the founder gard & support the wwb
Hawthorn berry powder as a vasodialator

This combination has worked a treat- in combination with all the
other things I have implemented- diet,etc

As of today he will be on Yarrow,Silica & chaste tree( when
appropriate to introduce)

...If he starts to have weight issue you can feed at 1.5% of ideal
body weight,

Can someone run the math conversion by me again? How do I calculate
1.5% of ideal b/w from 200kg(was never a brainiac at maths)

a sealed grazing muzzle

That's where the problems start- as soon as the muzzle is on he lies
down/ sits down & sulks- will not move - & has stayed like that for
up to 6 hrs-great he is not eating, but he is also not moving. I
intende to use it more for the spring grass. I have read safergrass &
have applied the bits that I think is appropriate for my situation(
the fructan rhyme)

All is going so well at the moment- I'm going to get the hay issues
clear in my mind & then deal with the bloods-
Cheers
Pauline & Jack

--- In EquineCushings@..., "ponyjackpal" <takarri@...>
wrote:
Jack is also getting wheaten chaff & speedybeet
Wheaten chaff 200gms twice daily & speedybeet 45gm(dry) & 628gm
(wet) twice daily.I use wheaten chaff as it is what I call "diet
chaff"-

....Lorna I have jumped in here but.....I will let you do the hard
work :-) mineral balancing. The chaff is chopped up hay base and is
from wheat or you can do oats from what I remember, they do have some
small heads in them with the oats. Jack is only having a small amount
of wheat right Pauline? And he is not I.R only Cushing's? You would
have to have the mineral analysis of the wheat chaff or drop it
altogether and just feed the hay that you have had analysed and the
beet, mix minerals in the beet pulp. If I remember the hay analysis
was on the low end for protein. You might want to consider upping the
protein level with some split peas.
He is also on a blend of herbs that I tweak from time to time- I
will suss out what mineral they contain.

What are the herbs for?

Do I still need to soak with sugar at 8.9%?
..... Not if he is not I.R. this should be fine

But does that also mean that if he started to have a weight issue.

ie too much,that I would have to start soaking again- even with 8.9%?
...If he starts to have weight issue you can feed at 1.5% of ideal
body weight, if he still has issues you might want to consider
soaking hay even if not I.R. or consider testing for I.R later if he
has fat pads or weight issues.

Also, just how important is it to add the minerals? as he is
a "free range" pony- ie access to what I consider "reasonabaly" safe
paddocks- approx 2 acres & I don't know what my paddocks/grass(or
lack of at this stage) etc contains mineral wise.
The balanced mineral is very important. The simplest is to put him in
a sealed grazing muzzle and just feed the hay with the minerals for a
complete balanced diet to his benefit and Pergolide for the
Cushing's. The problem with the grass is that the ESC varies with
conditions and growth stage and types of grass, seasons ect. I do not
know how much he is getting from the paddock grass versus the hay but
if both, then he would not have a balanced diet. This could also
contribute to weight gain. Have you checked out www.safergrass.org
excellent reading.
Angela
jarrahbrearbereazebridie

--- In EquineCushings@..., "briarskingstonnet"
<briars@...> wrote:

Can you send me the report,by any chance?
briars at kingston dot net,no spaces.

Hi Lorna
I have sent you the full results that got sent to me

Jack is also getting wheaten chaff & speedybeet

So can you figure out how much,by weight,and what that adds to his
hay by way of minerals/vitamins?
And why the wheaten chaff?

Wheaten chaff 200gms twice daily & speedybeet 45gm(dry) & 628gm (wet)
twice daily.I use wheaten chaff as it is what I call "diet chaff"-
just the stalk chopped up- no head & as he is not in work he doesn't
require oats/oaten chaff. Not a clue about what that adds.
He is also on a blend of herbs that I tweak from time to time- I will
suss out what mineral they contain.

> Do I still need to soak with sugar at 8.9%?

That seems like a good number but it depends on Jack.If I

remember he

is NOT IR? And doesn't have weight issues?If no issues,then I would
try not soaking,myself.

Correct, Jack is not IR & am happy with his weight- at the moment
approx 200kg-
a big yeah for not soaking- my plants/vegie garden thrived on the
sugar water- but they will have to get over it... or die
But does that also mean that if he started to have a weight issue. ie
too much,that I would have to start soaking again- even with 8.9%?


Also, just how important is it to add the minerals? as he is a "free
range" pony- ie access to what I consider "reasonabaly" safe paddocks-
approx 2 acres & I don't know what my paddocks/grass(or lack of at
this stage) etc contains mineral wise.
My main aim was to sort out ESC, & soaking issue but am happy to
tweak where necessary.

Thank you again for your time & input
Cheers
Pauline & Jack

Lorna
Ontario

Hi Pauline,

I got it tested at Equi-Anaylitical.

Can you send me the report,by any chance?
briars at kingston dot net,no spaces.

Jack is also getting wheaten chaff & speedybeet

So can you figure out how much,by weight,and what that adds to his
hay by way of minerals/vitamins?
And why the wheaten chaff?

> Do I still need to soak with sugar at 8.9%?

That seems like a good number but it depends on Jack.If I remember he
is NOT IR? And doesn't have weight issues?If no issues,then I would
try not soaking,myself.

Would my normal horse benefit from the minerals as well?-

ABSOLUTELY.That's a yes<s>

You adjust the numbers to reflect the amount of hay being fed.

I've privately run what I figured out past the gurus and we're on
track except for the K.*Don't* add potassium as I said before.You've
got enough.

Lorna
Ontario