--- In EquineCushings@..., "sorayacharlotte"
<sorayacharlotte@...> wrote:

My question really was that: Does WSC=12% mean that you take that and
add it to the 10%starch declared on the bag = 22%? Or does it mean a
total of 12%?

That's a question for the feed company. Unfortunately, there are no
standards for reporting sugar and starch. We have a company here that
calls their product "safe starch" and yes, it does have lower starch
than most other feeds, but they don't add in the sugar so the total
sugar and starch is more than 20%.

Prior to March 2007, we used the term NSC (non-structural
carbohydrates), defined as WSC + starch to determine what was "safe"
for carbohydrate sensitive horses with a cutoff at 10%. Now we use ESC
(simple sugars) + starch.

The point is this - with IR, we're concerned about what results in
a "glycemic spike" (increases in glucose and insulin after eating) and
for the horse, that's simple sugars and starches that are digested in
the stomach vs. those that are fermented in the hindgut. [I'm winging
this and will welcome any corrections]. Both sugars and starches can be
broken down into digestible (hydrolyzable) and resistant (fermentable).
So, it is important to understand what terminology the feed company
uses, how they "define" sugar and starch and whether they have tested
the glycemic response to this feed (most likely answer to the latter
is "no."). I wish I could answer your question, but without knowing how
they define these things, I'm at a loss.

Alternatively, if you have a forage laboratory at hand, you could send
in a sample and have it tested. The safest alternative, until you can
get an answer, is soaked and rinsed beet pulp.

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Kathleen Gustafson"
<katmando@...> wrote:

--- In EquineCushings@..., "sorayacharlotte"
<sorayacharlotte@> wrote:

feed company, saying that they do not test for ESC but the

WSC is

12%. The the bag states starch at 10%. Does this mean that this

is a

LITTLE bit high, or EXTREMELY high for her.

Ask them to give you figures for WSC, ESC and starch. They've

already

come back and said that they don't test for ESC so change the

language

a bit and ask them for WSC, sugar and starch. If they still say

they

don't test for sugar (?) then ask for the starch figure.

Depending on how you twist the math, it could be as high as 22%
sugar/starch (WSC+starch)* or maybe "starch" means (to them) simple
sugars (ESC) + starch. Either way, you need to know.

[*warning* before this starts a flurry of emails "I thought we add

ESC

+ starch!" We do, this is just to illustrate a point]

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)

Hello Kathleen and thank you for answering me.
My question really was that: Does WSC=12% mean that you take that and
add it to the 10%starch declared on the bag = 22%? Or does it mean a
total of 12%? I have emailed the company but I was hoping that
somebody here might know the answer as it can take a long time to get
and response from the company and meanwhile Toddy is eating this
feed. And she is not well.
If it is no good (22%)I have no idea what to try next. When you
say 'this is just to illustrate a point', it is a very serious point
for Toddy! Please if anyone can shed some light on this, or recomend
any 'safe' feed (not hay) available in Europe, please post.
Thank you
Soraya

--- In EquineCushings@..., "sorayacharlotte"
<sorayacharlotte@...> wrote:

It is too soon
to say if it is helping her but I just received the response from the
feed company, saying that they do not test for ESC but the WSC is
12%. The the bag states starch at 10%. Does this mean that this is a
LITTLE bit high, or EXTREMELY high for her.

Ask them to give you figures for WSC, ESC and starch. They've already
come back and said that they don't test for ESC so change the language
a bit and ask them for WSC, sugar and starch. If they still say they
don't test for sugar (?) then ask for the starch figure.

Depending on how you twist the math, it could be as high as 22%
sugar/starch (WSC+starch)* or maybe "starch" means (to them) simple
sugars (ESC) + starch. Either way, you need to know.

[*warning* before this starts a flurry of emails "I thought we add ESC
+ starch!" We do, this is just to illustrate a point]

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)

Toddy got worse and meanwhile I emailed the feed company to ask what
the ESC was. The company took forever to reply and Toddy really
needed something changing so I went ahead and puther onto Spillers
Happy Hoof and High Fibre Cubes and Molasses-free sugar beet. I
removed any other feed including the soaked oat hay. It is too soon
to say if it is helping her but I just received the response from the
feed company, saying that they do not test for ESC but the WSC is
12%. The the bag states starch at 10%. Does this mean that this is a
LITTLE bit high, or EXTREMELY high for her. I know it is not ideal,
but is it better than what she was on which caused her to become ill?
(soaked oat hay, 1 small feed of rinsed sugar beet + flax etc) Please
reply! Thank you
Soraya & Toddy