I had Dude's blood work done Wednesday. He is on a dirt lot with a
little bit of grass coming up, we've tilled the ground and do so
weekly. This weekend I'm going to try vinegar and salt. Also, he's
getting soaked coastal bermuda hay and beet pulp, however he's
basically quit eating during the last several days. He's not on
perolide. This was the case before the blood tests were done.

Insulin was 21.1 ulU/ML normal 10-40
Glucose was 89 mg/dl

If I calcualted correctly, gives me a ration of 4.2.

advice appreciated and needed.

still working on the diet, waiting on another hay sample. ordered
herbs to flavor food. quit soaking hay, weight was dropping
steadily as he's not eaten well in about 2 months (we tried
pergolide). He could handle loosing a few pounds but not from
starving. I tried tough love, but I guess he was tougher. Current
hay sample is on files.

thanks Teresa and Dude

Teresa,
A G:I ratio of 4.2 means compensated IR which means you tighten up his diet even more! Muzzle him if he's getting too much grass. Soak his hay. Add r/s/r beet pulp to add weight. You can do it!
Mandy and Asher in VA

Thanks Mandy for the words of encouragement. My problem is, I have
been soaking his hay and he has quit eating it. I was giving b/p
and he has quit eating it. Along with his hay and b/p he was
getting vit e, thyro L, magnesium, flax meal, and salt. When he
quit eating everything I started doing the thyro l in a syringe.
The grass is very little, he was getting more in his previous
paddock. We've tilled the ground several times, dragged and raked.
There are very few survivors coming through which I'll try to kill
this weekend with tilling again and vinegar and salt.

I've tried peppermint and anise extract to flavor, which he didn't
eat. I've bought peppermint and raspberry leaf from herbal.com and
so far he's not eating that either. How much of that can I safely
put in his food? His weight is really dropping and his feces is
getting hard and dry. Of course, I'm not sure what he's pooping out
at this point!

The first hay analysis I had reported the NSC level as submitted at
11.67. I've sent another sample to equi-annalytical for a better
analysis. Hopefully I'll have those results next week.

So far I have been unable to find something to flavor his food with
so that he will eat. He has been decreasing since I started
soaking. I went for days just giving him the soaked stuff and he
went for days not eating. How long can I let him go without food
before he gives in and eats?

I have been feeding his hay wet. Are others drying it then feeding
it? That was my next plan of action.

On the plus side, his insulin is coming down. He was tested on
6/14/06 it was 47.5, 10/5/07 it was 30.19 and now it's down to 21.
That's good news right?

funny thing (sorta), my other horse, Nugget, got into Dude's stall
when I gave them play time. I found Nugget happily eating the beet
pulp with all the mixings. He only ate a little before I got him
out. He is a very picky eater! Of course, later that evening he
was covered in hives all over his body!! Not sure if he had a
reaction to the mixings or what....

looking for help, Teresa and Dude in NC

thanks

How many days has he actually held out and not eaten a thing?

On the plus side, his insulin is coming down. He was tested on
6/14/06 it was 47.5, 10/5/07 it was 30.19 and now it's down to 21.
That's good news right?

Yes! this proves that the diet is working for him but you still need to tighten it up to get even better results. You want a G:I ratio of 10.1 or better!! You can do it!

I have no idea what caused Nugget's hives. You'd have to expirement by introducing each item seperately then chart it so you don't accidentally feed him that again. Most horses do very well on the Diet.

Have you tried Blue Seal Carb Guard as a season? Thats what I use. TC Lite would be another choice. Hang in there.
mw

funny thing (sorta), my other horse, Nugget, got into Dude's stall
when I gave them play time. I found Nugget happily eating the beet
pulp with all the mixings. He only ate a little before I got him
out. He is a very picky eater! Of course, later that evening he
was covered in hives all over his body!! Not sure if he had a
reaction to the mixings or what....

looking for help, Teresa and Dude in NC

thanks


------------------------------------

***PLEASE BE SURE TO REMOVE UNNECESSARY DUPLICATED MATERIAL FROM THE MESSAGE YOU ARE REPLYING TO BEFORE YOU HIT SEND -- ONLY LEAVE ENOUGH SO YOUR REPLY IS UNDERSTOOD***

Shortcut URL to this page:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/messages/?expand=1

All posts copyrighted the year posted, all rights reserved to the author of the post and list owner. Posts may NOT be copied or intellectual property used elsewhere without written permission of the author and/or list owner.

Post message: EquineCushings@...
Subscribe: EquineCushings-subscribe@...
Unsubscribe: EquineCushings-unsubscribe@...
List owner: EquineCushings-owner@...

Off Topic but horse discussion list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECPhotos/ Yahoo! Groups Links

he's been decreasing intake for a couple months, started with
pergolide and on vet's advice I quit that, it wasn't helping and he's
not tested positive for cushings. He's gone for a couple weeks eating
very little, then probably 4 days with virtually nothing. We've gone
through this year before last, I was soaking his hay to prevent his
allergies and he quit eating. Although he was still on pasture at
that time.

I've ordered TC Safe Starch Forage, it'll be in Wednesday, hoping to
tempt him with that. I considered TC lite but was concerned about the
iron level. I need to do more research, but I guess a little for
taste wouldn't hurt. It'll take me another week to get the TC Lite.

I'll search for the Blue Seal stuff

thanks so much for the advice and encouragement, I really feel lost!

His weight is really dropping and his feces is
getting hard and dry.

Teresa this is a really big red flag for me!!Hard,dry feces are not
good.
How much water is he drinking??
If he were my horse I'd be really concerned about impaction colic.Not
trying to scare you but....been there,done that and it's not fun.

I'd be wanting to get lots of water into him.
I'd also be interested in how much he is eating by *weight* so that you
have a better idea of actually how much he is ingesting.Not much,only a
bit,hardly anything and other descriptions like that make it hard to
really know what he's getting.....to my mind anyway.Make sense?

Lorna

colic is also my concern, that is what concerned me about his not
eating. I know he needs the fiber to keep things moving. He has a
large tank of water and has been drinking fairly well. We are having
the first of very hot weather this week as well, which means he is
spending a lot time standing in the stall. I weigh the hay and it's
20 pounds dry, I soak it and give it in three meals a day. I've been
throwing the majority of it away as it sours in his tub. I've been
putting it in a large tub, which he is used to eating from. The bp
he's getting is just enough for the meds, 2 cups dry, then I soak it,
2x a day.

I have hay on to soak tonight and in the morning I will try spreading
it around his paddock. I resisted doing this because it's tilled
dirt. I will try to find something to spread it out on. Maybe with
it spread around the paddock he'll eat it better....

He had a bout of colic in December and I do not want to go there again.

I wonder about trying apple cider vinegar as a flavor tempter.... I
used a joint supplement for my other horse that smelled awful to me
but he loved it, it had a base of apple cider vinegar... any thoughts?

how much peppermint leaf or raspberry leaf can I add to his feed? I
ordered from herbal.com. I don't know how much is too much. He liked
the peppermint when I mixed a little with water for him to try. I've
put up to 8 tsp in his beet pulp and it was not enough to get him to
eat.

He has a large tank of water and has been drinking fairly well.

Fairly well?How many gallons does he drink in a 24-hour period?

We are having the first of very hot weather this week as well, which
means he is spending a lot time standing in the stall.

Does he have water in his stall?

I weigh the hay and it's 20 pounds dry, I soak it and give it in
three meals a day. I've been throwing the majority of it away

But how many pounds do you throw away? What we want to know is how
many pounds he is actually eating.

as it sours in his tub.

So maybe you've answered your own question about how to get him to
eat? If you must use the tub be sure to clean it out thoroughly,and
try to drain more water from the hay before putting it into the tub.

Does he eat all his 2 pounds of beet pulp? If so,can you increase
the amount ?

I have hay on to soak tonight and in the morning I will try
spreading it around his paddock.

Do you let it soak all night?If so,I'm wondering if the heat you are
having continues into the night? Maybe you're producing hay beer.Is
there a way you can soak the hay for an hour while you're doing
chores,and then drain and feed?
Sounds good about spreading it around.

I wonder about trying apple cider vinegar as a flavor tempter....

Possibly.But it will be interesting to see if he finds his hay more
tasty without the sour smell.

I'd be even more interested in how many gallons of water he's
drinking.

Lorna

At 10:33 PM 6/6/2008, you wrote:

how much peppermint leaf or raspberry leaf can I add to his feed? I
ordered from herbal.com. I don't know how much is too much.

Teresa,

Blue gets peppermint tea in his water, and on his cubes for iron overload. He gets lots of it and loves it. The tea is very concentrated, roughly a 3 to 1 (three very generous tablespoons of peppermint tea leaf to one cup of water), steeped for about 10 minutes. Makes it easy to add to his water and pour on his cubes, and he gets about 4 to 5 cups of it daily.

Salt is another important thing to help make them drink. Blue gets two very generous tablespoons in his supplements, one morning, one night. For impaction colic a few years back, one of the things my vet used with one of our horses was a highly concentrated salt solution - he tubed it in and within less than two minutes, Mike finished a five gallon pail of water. I don't know how common that solution is, but it worked miracles, and my point is that salt is very, very important.

And Lorna is so right about draining the hay well, especially in hot weather, and spreading it around if you can. Hay can sour very quickly and if he leaves it in his tub, you'll have to clean the tub often.

Hang in there - you'll bring him around and find what suits him best.

Carol and Blue in Maine

he does not eat the hay or b/p when it's fresh and the tub is clean.
He has access to the tank of water 24/7, he's not locked in a stall. I
don't have a water meter on the tank. I weigh the hay before it is
soaked, weighing what I have left over wouldn't give me a good number
as it is not completely dry.

I soak the hay in three batches for three meals. I smell the hay
before I feed and it does not smell sour. I soak it in the barn in
cold water. The water is still cold when I take the hay out. I use
two different tubs so he doesn't get the same tub for each meal, the
tubs are cleaned and dry for the next meal. I have large double
stainless steel sinks that are rinsed well before and after I soak the
hay. The baskets I use to soak are also rinsed before and after.

thanks for the tea recipe. I'll try that in the morning. He was
getting two tbsp of salt daily until he quit eating the b/p. Maybe
with the tea I can get him eating that again along with his
supplements.

You're welcome - thank Eleanor actually. I meant to ask - does he have a salt block in easy access? Blue is free stalled, too, so he has both water and salt inside and outside. Inside water is easy to measure but outside, not so easy - evaporation and playing would skew the measurement with Blue.

Carol and Blue in Maine

so far this morning, two cups of tea on his bp and he's still not
eating... maybe he'll give it a try, he simply smells and walks away.
I started with 1 cup and when he didn't like that I added another.
I've spread his hay on a 4x8 piece of plastic lattice and he's still
not liking that either, maybe once it dries he'll eat. Both of my
boys have a large salt block in their stalls. Dude likes to lick
anything, so he likes that block. However, I'm going to set his
mineral feeder up today with table salt as well since he's not eating
the b/p salt mix. They have automatic waterers in their stalls
although neither of them ever used them. I've tried everything to get
him to use it and he just won't. I've owned him for 9 years and
learned that he prefers his water after it sits a bit. Learned from a
cattle farmer that some of the cows prefer water after it sits for
awhile as well. We have well water with a water softner. I did put a
bucket of water in his stall last night. I also spread a little wet
hay around the paddock and he expressed his appreciation by peeing on
it! Really warms a mother's heart....

You've covered all the bases I know about. You do what you can do and pray. There's a file called "Picky Eaters" (or something like that) which has a lot of ideas that may help. I consider myself very lucky (in a way) that Blue is a pig. Of course, that's what brought us here in the first place, but I sympathize with your challenge. Is it typical of him to just not like any changes to his feed? You've gone to great expense with the automatic waterers, but would hanging a bucket and letting it sit make a difference?

I'm not sure I could do it, but some very experienced members on this list have gone the "tough love" routine and it worked. Last resort possibly, but...

Carol and Blue in Maine

HI Teresa

Please take a look at the Picky Eaters checklist. It will really help you organize your
thoughts, I think. I know how they can drive you nuts. I'm just coming out of a bout with
my non-IR 30 y/o with no teeth.

Here's the URL to Pickey Eaters Checklist http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/files/8%20Pulling%20it%20Togethe
r/

You'll have to copy and paste the link or go to File #8 "Pulling It All together".

You might want to try syringing in the salt. Or sprinkling on his hay.

Also..my IR guy is on a dry lot. I pinched some free pallets (Lorna...is that the right
spelling?) from the local hardware store and screwed plywood on top to make tables for
him. It keeps the hay up off the sand a bit (they still through it around) and I can "scatter"
in various places. I like it better than matts 'cuz he doesn't kick sand onto the hay.

You also want to get some psyllium next time you order from herbalcom.com to clean out
any accumulated sand. I give it to Beau one week a month.

Hang in there!

Nancy C and Beau and Gabe in NH

Have you signed the TB WSS Petition?
www.ipetitions.com/petition/RacehorseWelfare/index.html
Signature count 414 GOAL 1000

so far this morning, two cups of tea on his bp and he's still not
eating... maybe he'll give it a try, he simply smells and walks

away.

Does he eat anything from your hand?
I know that we don't like using Kelp.BUT one of my really finicky
boys gets sucked in if I put a tiny sprinkling(an ounce or less) of
Kelp on his supplement mix.I'm using soaked hay cubes instead of BP
right now.

I've spread his hay on a 4x8 piece of plastic lattice and he's

still

not liking that either,

Maybe he doesn't like the lattice?

mineral feeder up today with table salt as well since he's not
eating the b/p salt mix.

Good.And can you sprinkle salt on his damp hay?


> I did put a bucket of water in his stall last night.

Good.Be sure to measure how much you offer so that you can gauge how
much he's drinking.

I also spread a little wet hay

Good.How much is "a little"?

around the paddock and he expressed his appreciation by peeing on
it!

Pee doesn't splash their legs if it hits something softer than hard
ground.I don't think it was anything personal <big grin>

Does he like apple peels?
Wheat bran.....I KNOW we don't like to use that either,but sometimes
we need to do SOMETHING to kick start the eating process.

Are we totally sure there isn't something physical that's putting him
off? Ulcers?In mouth or in gut? Odour?

Lorna

Does he eat anything from your hand?

he'll eat everything that's bad for him, unsoaked hay, he'll even
eat the bp if I sprinkle some Safe Choice on top. Problem is I
don't think I can give him the safe choice as he seemed sore later.
He'll probably like apple peels, I'll try that too. I bought apple
juice for kids with 40% less sugar, will dilute that and give it a
shot. Although he doesn't like applesauce. I also bought banana
extract to flavor the bp. Read on the picky eaters checklist they
like banana flavor. Is there some other banana flavoring I can buy?
powder or something?

I think the problem is he just doesn't like his food wet. Maybe I
can flavor the bp so he can't refuse, then he'll get all of his meds.

His hay has dried on the lattice and he's now starting to eat a
little. It doesn't have any smell so it's not sour. I put some in
a hay bag and he's working on that. It's just so hot today, he'll
probably eat more tonight. Both of them are standing in the stalls
with the fans, trying to cool out.

I'm going to figure out some kind of hay drying rack and dry before
I feed him, may work better.

Good.And can you sprinkle salt on his damp hay?

tried the salt on the damp hay, doesn't work

Good.How much is "a little"?

2 pounds dry weight. the rest was put on the lattice to keep it off
the ground.

Pee doesn't splash their legs if it hits something softer than hard

ground.I don't think it was anything personal <big grin>

his paddock is tilled soft dirt and he has a big paddock. He was
following me around smelling the hay as I scattered it. He's my
baby so I'll let it slide....

Are we totally sure there isn't something physical that's putting

him

off? Ulcers?In mouth or in gut? Odour?

I think he just doesn't like the food wet and with no flavor, or at
least the flavors he's used to. He used to eat everything that
wouldn't eat him first, but since he's started with meds and
supplements, he's become very picky.

thanks to everyone for all of the suggestions, I'll keep trying and
hopefully soon he'll eat, if not, I'll be broke and none of us will
be eating!! On the up side, I have a pound of peppermint leaf and
a pound raspberry leaf, anise extract, banana extract, peppermint
extract, apple juice, baby food green beans, a huge container of
cinnamon, four pounds of salt and lots of bp, so my husband and I
may be able to come of with some tasty recipes to avoid
starvation....

At 12:17 PM +0000 6/8/08, tgaskins40 wrote:

he'll eat everything that's bad for him, unsoaked hay, he'll even eat the bp if I sprinkle some Safe Choice on top.

Join the picky eaters club! My mare, Penny, is a member. She, too, doesn't like wet stuff, though when the barn owner was wetting down the hay (not soaking) because it was dusty, she didn't mind that. We gave up on trying to get her to eat beet pulp. The only way she'd eat it was with sweet feed mixed in. She's been gobbling up her small amount of Blue Seal Carb-Guard, though. Only problem is that the powders of her supplements don't stick to it very well. I'm using liquid vitamin E for a little moisture, but it's not enough for Penny to object to. And I have to give her only a teaspoon a meal of her supplements, since if I add any more, she refuses to eat. It's not perfect, but it's the best I can manage under our circumstances.
If it's possible, you may want to feed something tastier than beet pulp (like Carb-Guard) and syringe in the supplements.

I also bought banana extract to flavor the bp. Read on the picky eaters checklist they
like banana flavor. Is there some other banana flavoring I can buy? powder or something?

Claire (Witchylady) sent me a small sample of Banana Nut Dust. You might try that. She also sent Beet Root Powder, which I heard horses like. I offered some to Penny straight in my hand, and she looked at me with a very offended glare. She said, "I thought you said, 'Treat!' This is yukky powder!"
If you want me to send you these little packets, I will. You pay postage.

I think the problem is he just doesn't like his food wet.

Penny, too. I was feeding her ODTB cubes for a midday treat. She gobbled them up. Then she choked, so I offered them to her soaked to a mush, and she wouldn't touch them.

Maybe I can flavor the bp so he can't refuse, then he'll get all of his meds.

I wish you luck. It works with some horses, but not Penny.

thanks to everyone for all of the suggestions, I'll keep trying and hopefully soon he'll eat, if not, I'll be broke and none of us will be eating!!

Oh, I know that feeling well! At some point, I just gave up and decided Penny is not getting all her supplements but only as much as she'll eat. it's not perfect, but she seems in good health in spite of it.
--

Sandy Su
ssu@...