advice


millionairess1989
 

Hi everyone,
Here is our link for Millionairess http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory3/files/Millionairess
not to sure why it is not underlined but hope it works

Mill is finally at 0.5mg of Pergolide after tapering on since Jan 14th. Her appetite has lessened lately. She is not wanting to finish her Equine Senior and sometimes her hay. She gets Bermuda and Orchard grass. It seems like what she eats one day she will ignore the next. She has already started shedding. She has no signs of IR so how concerned do I need to be about revamping her diet? Will using APF really help? Should I be supplementing Vitamins C & E for antioxidant protection? How much is needed?

Jennifer in TN
Jan 2011


Mandy Woods
 

Hi Jennifer,
I looked at Mill's Case History. There is a lot you can do to help her!
Even though you've tested for Cushings, she could very well be Insulin
Resistant too. The next time your vet is out I would sure consider
getting her Insulina and Glucose tested on a NON fasting draw. After 4 weeks
on pergolide full dose, ask your vet to pull blood for an eACTH test to make sure your
dose is adequate.

To help support her Cushings diagnosis, you should get her diet balanced.
This is the DDT/E's that you read about. You have a partial Diagnosis, now
you need to move to Diet, Trim and Exercise.

The Diet is low sugar/starch/fat. Have you tested your hay to find out
exactly what you are feeding her? Go to www.equi-analytical.com and read
how to core hay, get the Trainer#603/$49. This will give you the
sugar/starch/minerals needed to balance her Diet. In the meantime you
should soak her hay for one hour in cold water. This is the Temporary
Emergency Diet. The recipe is in the Start Here file. Yes, she should get
2000 iu's of natural Vitamin E in a human gelcap. E needs oil to be
absorbed. Check out Walmart for all the Temp ER minerals. You can get them
there. She does not need added Vitamin C. Magnesium/oxide can be
purchased at your feed store - 50# for less than $10. That should last you
years! Get the loose Iodized table salt. Remove the mineral block you have
because it has iron and molasses in it. NO grain! NO Pasture. No apple lump treats. The Omega
HorseShine (flax) is ok
for now. I would swap out the 5.5 pounds of Purina Senior feed (22%) for
something with lower sugar/starch. Triple Crown Sr is 15% s/s.
Rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp is less than 5%. You can feed up to 30% her
total diet in BP - if you can get her to eat that much! Always weigh feed
dry and introduce new feed slowly. 20 pounds of dry hay then soaked would be good!

Trim is a balanced foot, toes backed and heels lowered.
Exercise of handwalking is great.

Jennifer, I know you did not mention any lameness issues but Arabians are the #ONE Breed
for IR! Many Cushings horses become IR> We want you to be proactive and tighten Mill's
diet now before laminitis starts! AVOID LAMINITIS! at all cost!

Read the label on the joint supplement for sugars.
How many times a year do you deworm Mill and what drugs do you use? A parasite overload can
cause a change in coat. An unbalanced mineral deficient diet can too.

Please go back and review the Start Here file. There is alot of information there for you to soak in.
Keep a journal on Mill, photograph her - lateral - and post it in her CH file. Send photos of her feet
too~

Ask questions and we'll help.
Mandy in VA
EC Primary Response
OCT 2003

----- Original Message -----
From: "millionairess1989" <millionairess1989@...>
To: <EquineCushings@...>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 7:10 PM
Subject: [EquineCushings] advice


Hi everyone,
Here is our link for Millionairess
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory3/files/Millionairess
not to sure why it is not underlined but hope it works

Mill is finally at 0.5mg of Pergolide after tapering on since Jan 14th.
Her appetite has lessened lately. She is not wanting to finish her Equine
Senior and sometimes her hay. She gets Bermuda and Orchard grass. It seems
like what she eats one day she will ignore the next. She has already
started shedding. She has no signs of IR so how concerned do I need to be
about revamping her diet? Will using APF really help? Should I be
supplementing Vitamins C & E for antioxidant protection? How much is
needed?

Jennifer in TN
Jan 2011



------------------------------------

***PLEASE BE SURE TO REMOVE UNNECESSARY DUPLICATED MATERIAL FROM THE
MESSAGE YOU ARE REPLYING TO BEFORE YOU HIT SEND -- ONLY LEAVE ENOUGH SO
YOUR REPLY IS UNDERSTOOD***

Shortcut URL to this page:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/messages/?expand=1

All posts copyrighted the year posted, all rights reserved to the author
of the post and list owner. Posts may NOT be copied or intellectual
property used elsewhere without written permission of the author and/or
list owner.

Post message: EquineCushings@...
Subscribe: EquineCushings-subscribe@...
Unsubscribe: EquineCushings-unsubscribe@...
List owner: EquineCushings-owner@...

Off Topic but horse discussion list:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHorsekeeping/
Hoof related sister list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHoof/
Case History list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory3/Yahoo! Groups
Links



millionairess1989
 

Hi Mandy,
Thanks for the suggestions and here is the next round of questions.
Are there any benefits to feeding grape seed extract or ginseng?
What is magnesium for and how much do I feed?
Do the vitamin E capsules have oil in them or does that have to be added when feeding?
Any ideas on soaking hay in below freezing temps? Do I really need to if there are no signs of IR?
Mill has been underweight since fall. She has no signs of laminitis and is barefoot and trimmed every 8 weeks. Fecal egg counts are performed year round and she was dewormed in Dec. after a run of freezing weather with Zimectrin Gold. I have APF on order and will start that soon. My hay supplier tests his crop and I am waiting on the results. I hope it will tell us what we need to know.

Jennifer in TN with Millionairess
Jan 2011


Mandy Woods
 

Hi Jennifer,
Why would you want to use grape seed extract or ginseng? Both of these can be used in the horses' diet but for a specific reason. What type of ginseng are you looking at?

Magnesium is an essential mineral for nutrition often deficent in hay. We add more mag/ox to balance the mineral.

IF you get Vitamin E, read the label to make sure it has soy oil in the capsule.

You can get a cooler on wheels to soak a flake of hay in ~ then roll the cooler some place safe to let the water out. You dont need an ice rink in the middle of the paddock! Let the hay drain for 5 minutes then serve.

Good question: ''do I have to this is if there are no signs of IR?" The Diet supports a Cushings horse. Many Cushings horses become IR> It is important to feed the best diet you can to them. When the symptoms start to show the horse has been IR. Compare it to pregnancy ~ you wont know the first few weeks/months by looking at the outside! Why take a chance ~ feed the best diet you can to help your horse ~ low sugar/starch hay with the minerals balanced to it!

On the worming ~ fecal counts dont always pick up worm eggs. The encysted strongyle and tape worm are hard to pick up. We recommend the Power Pak and a double strongid or the Ivermectin/Praziquantel at least once a year. It will depend too on Mill's living conditions. If she isnt grazing she isnt reinfesting herself!

Keep reading the files and asking questions!
So much to learn ~ so little time!!
Mandy in VA
EC Primary Response
OCT 2003


laviniamfiscaletti <dnlf@...>
 

Do I really need to if there are no signs of IR?
Mill has been underweight since fall.
Hi Jennifer,
Just to add to Mandy's excellent post to you.

Mill does have some signs of IR. Although we generally think of an IR horse as being fat and cresty necked, IR can also present as a horse who cannot keep/put on weight even when being fed lots of high-calorie foods. This is because their body cannot use the glucose that is circulatiing and they are actually starving. We need give food to these horses in forms that will not spike the glucose and overload their already compromised system. This is where the balanced diet and low s/s come in.
As Mandy mentioned, Arabs are the number one breed for IR. This is a metabolic type, not a disease. They are genetically programmed to be highly efficient. When we overload their systems with feeds that are too calorie-dense they can't handle it. Mill has PPID, a BCS of 4-4.5, she weighs 856 lbs, and she's being fed about 21 lbs of calorie-dense food/day. That is 2.5% of her bodyweight and should be making her fat but it isn't. The Equine Senior and Smartgain are both high in fats(wrong kinds) and calories. By substituting under 10% s/s feeds and hay with the correct omega 3 EFA's you will be helping her body use the food she eats to maintain her weight.

Lavinia, both Nappi and George
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


millionairess1989
 

I read about ginseng to support Cushings horses and grape seed as an antioxidant or is Vitamin E enough?
Jennifer in TN
Jan 2011


Mandy Woods
 

Hey Jennifer,
In the beginning we ask all new members to start their horses on the Temporary Emergency Diet until they can get their hay analyzed and minerals balanced. I'm not sure that you have a hay analysis posted in the Mills' CH file. What this diet does is quickly and safely removes sugar/starchand gives your mare a basic safe diet until you get your hay tested. You have been feeding her a very unbalanced diet thinking you were doing her well! She will need the best diet for Cushings and if she's IR (she's an Arab!) it is imperative she be on a tight diet! Vitamin E is in the Temp ER Diet - 2000 iu's a day.E is an excellent antioxident. Ginseng should be given for a reason. You dont want to start throwing the kitchen sink at her thinking one or two of the minerals will help. Lets see her hay analysis. Did the hayman have one? How much pergolide are you giving her and what form is it? Liquid?

We know you are anxious to help Mill ~ so are we. We have to see some numbers so we know how to advise.

Mandy in VA
EC Primary Response
OCT 2003


millionairess1989
 

Mandy,
I got the hay analysis added to Mill's file. I do not think it tells what we need to know as far as sugar and starch. When I looked up all the meanings, one uses ash in the calculation but I could not find it on the report. Can you make anything out of it?

Mill is getting 0.5mg of Pergolide in an oil suspension (1mg/5ml). I know that is not the ideal formulation. What do you know about tablets?
Jennifer in TN
Jan 2011

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Mandy Woods" <bittersweetfarm@...> wrote:

Hey Jennifer,
In the beginning we ask all new members to start their horses on the
Temporary Emergency Diet until they can get their hay analyzed and minerals
balanced. I'm not sure that you have a hay analysis posted in the Mills'
CH file. What this diet does is quickly and safely removes sugar/starchand
gives your mare a basic safe diet until you get your hay tested. You have
been feeding her a very unbalanced diet thinking you were doing her well!
She will need the best diet for Cushings and if she's IR (she's an Arab!) it
is imperative she be on a tight diet! Vitamin E is in the Temp ER Diet -
2000 iu's a day.E is an excellent antioxident. Ginseng should be given
for a reason. You dont want to start throwing the kitchen sink at her
thinking one or two of the minerals will help. Lets see her hay analysis.
Did the hayman have one? How much pergolide are you giving her and what
form is it? Liquid?

We know you are anxious to help Mill ~ so are we. We have to see some
numbers so we know how to advise.

Mandy in VA
EC Primary Response
OCT 2003


Mandy Woods
 

Jennifer,
The bad news: Your hay analysis does not include copper, zinc, manganese, sugar, starch or iron. These need to be tested. Please resubmit a hay sample to www.equi-analytical.com for the Trainer/#603/$49.

Was this a copy of your haymans' analysis or did you actually pull hay for a sample? If its his analysis, please call your county extension agent to borrow a hay corer, use a cordless drill and drill about 20 bales (takes one minute per bale), stir and mail a quart of hay to the above link. Make sure the hay corer is washed/dried, the dowel used to push the hay out is clean and the receiving bucket is washed and clean. You dont want contamination.

Or ~ plan B ~ if this was your hay sample that you cored and mailed, call the lab and ask them if they would do the missing tests. Sometimes labs keep the hay for a week or two so you can add more tests. I know Dairy One (also EA) does.

Its really critical that you get the missing tests.

Pergolide : I dont know anything about tablets but I do know about the capsule/powders. That is what I would advise you to get. They have the longest shelf life. You need to have your vet call in an rx to Vet Pet Solutions 1-303-320-6034 or Pet Health 1-800-742-0516. Both of these compounding pharmacies are good for quality medication. They are also very affordable.


Mandy in VA
EC Primary Response
OCT 2003


Lavinia <dnlf@...>
 

Hi Jennifer,
If you contact Equi-Analytical, just go to the website www.equi-analytical.com , and ask for a sample kit they will mail you the quart-size plastic bag, submission form and mailer bag for free. the postage is also free this way.

Lavinia, both Nappi and George over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


millionairess1989
 

Mandy,
The hay report was from the seller. There is not enough of this shipment left to make an analysis worthwhile. I will try to get one on the next load.

Meanwhile I will look into the pergolide from the pharmacies you suggested. Thanks.

Jennifer in TN
Jan 2011