Date
1 - 11 of 11
Jana and Mikado Update still not getting better- now new trim
jennifer
Yes, I did. I see a hoof that is under severe pressure. The hairline is jagged up, meaning it's pushed up by the hoof wall (the quarters need to be cleared). The hairline is supposed to be straight, in a 30° angle.
The toe is bulging, forming a bullnose. You can see it here
http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2011/03/bull-nosed-hooves.html
If there is some inflammation going on, and this kind of pressure is added, it would result in a pretty painful situation.
The hooves need to be balanced. I'm so sorry, Jana! You really need a very good trimmer. Or, at least one who knows the basics. :( I would come out, but it's too far to help regularly. Best would be to see if you can find someone near you who would be willing to have his/her work looked at by this group and help Mikado get better.
If the work in the pic is from your current farrier and he did not attempt to relieve the pressure from the quarters and from the toe wall, I'm afraid things might get much worse over time than they already are.
Jennifer in Germany
Laramie July 2011
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
The toe is bulging, forming a bullnose. You can see it here
http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2011/03/bull-nosed-hooves.html
If there is some inflammation going on, and this kind of pressure is added, it would result in a pretty painful situation.
The hooves need to be balanced. I'm so sorry, Jana! You really need a very good trimmer. Or, at least one who knows the basics. :( I would come out, but it's too far to help regularly. Best would be to see if you can find someone near you who would be willing to have his/her work looked at by this group and help Mikado get better.
If the work in the pic is from your current farrier and he did not attempt to relieve the pressure from the quarters and from the toe wall, I'm afraid things might get much worse over time than they already are.
Jennifer in Germany
Laramie July 2011
--- In EquineCushings@..., "worldsbesthaflingerpony" <feldermannj@...> wrote:
Did you looked at those pics? The farrier took away the nose. He cut the hoof down to the white line.
Did you looked at those pics? The farrier took away the nose. He cut the hoof down to the white line.
In this case I would say that the bull nosed appearance is due to the way the hoof has been rasped rather than the type of bull nose appearance that is caused by a negative palmar angle and low heels. Mikado does not have low heels or a negative palmar angle. The bull nose appearance is due to the way the farrier has rasped on the hoof to deal with the lamellar wedge and keep the toes back. In and of itself, I do not think this would be causing Mikado's discomfort.
There is no quarter relief but that is pretty typical for a shod hoof as in the picture.
It is also important to differentiate between the hairline appearing to bulge from excess pressure versus the appearance of a bulge because the hairline drops at the toe in a horse where the toe has been rasped back and pressure relieved to let the lamellar wedge grow out. Hmm..I can picture what I'm trying to describe but I'm not sure I'm doing a good job of describing it!
Jana's farrier has actually done a good job in a difficult situation of dealing with the hooves of a chronically laminitic horse. This is way better than what we normally see in this situation. He has also been very willing to work with her and try different things.
JMHO.
Barb in western CO
(with Sierra, Libby, Josie the donkey, Lola and Katie)
2005
EC Primary Response
www.ecirhorse.org
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
There is no quarter relief but that is pretty typical for a shod hoof as in the picture.
It is also important to differentiate between the hairline appearing to bulge from excess pressure versus the appearance of a bulge because the hairline drops at the toe in a horse where the toe has been rasped back and pressure relieved to let the lamellar wedge grow out. Hmm..I can picture what I'm trying to describe but I'm not sure I'm doing a good job of describing it!
Jana's farrier has actually done a good job in a difficult situation of dealing with the hooves of a chronically laminitic horse. This is way better than what we normally see in this situation. He has also been very willing to work with her and try different things.
JMHO.
Barb in western CO
(with Sierra, Libby, Josie the donkey, Lola and Katie)
2005
EC Primary Response
www.ecirhorse.org
Yes, I did. I see a hoof that is under severe pressure. The hairline is jagged up, meaning it's pushed up by the hoof wall (the quarters need to be cleared). The hairline is supposed to be straight, in a 30° angle.
The toe is bulging, forming a bullnose. You can see it here
http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2011/03/bull-nosed-hooves.html
jennifer
I totally got what you're describing. :)
From the one pic posted I would say the bullnose already starts at about an inch below the hairline. But I have only seen that one pic, and you have seen more, so I'm sure you're right.
As to the jagged up hairline in the quarters I would think though, shod or not, that it should be straight. I did not explain myself properly, I guess- I did not mean there should be quarter relief, but there should be no pushing up the hairline. I know what you mean about the hairline dipping down at the toe, therefore making the hairline in the quarters look bulged up, but from the pic available on EC5 I would not presume this to be the cause. But, again, I have not seen enough pictures, but you have, so I'll be gladly wrong in this case! :D
The heels look a tad underrun.
It would be great if the farrier would work together with the group in balancing those hooves.
It's not horrible, but there is a lot of room for improvement. Also JMHO. I agree with you completely, Barb, that it could be much worse, but it could also be much better. :) And it would be worth a shot to see if the- albeit little- improvements could make Mikado more comfortable.
I wonder if there could be too much sole pressure, don't know how the bars look like.
I probably put my foot in my mouth though, so don't worry about what I said, Jana. :)
Jennifer in Germany
Laramie July 2011
--- In EquineCushings@..., "Barb" <bmccray@...> wrote:
Hmm..I can picture what I'm trying to describe but I'm not sure I'm doing a good job of describing it!
From the one pic posted I would say the bullnose already starts at about an inch below the hairline. But I have only seen that one pic, and you have seen more, so I'm sure you're right.
As to the jagged up hairline in the quarters I would think though, shod or not, that it should be straight. I did not explain myself properly, I guess- I did not mean there should be quarter relief, but there should be no pushing up the hairline. I know what you mean about the hairline dipping down at the toe, therefore making the hairline in the quarters look bulged up, but from the pic available on EC5 I would not presume this to be the cause. But, again, I have not seen enough pictures, but you have, so I'll be gladly wrong in this case! :D
The heels look a tad underrun.
It would be great if the farrier would work together with the group in balancing those hooves.
It's not horrible, but there is a lot of room for improvement. Also JMHO. I agree with you completely, Barb, that it could be much worse, but it could also be much better. :) And it would be worth a shot to see if the- albeit little- improvements could make Mikado more comfortable.
I wonder if there could be too much sole pressure, don't know how the bars look like.
I probably put my foot in my mouth though, so don't worry about what I said, Jana. :)
Jennifer in Germany
Laramie July 2011
--- In EquineCushings@..., "Barb" <bmccray@...> wrote:
Hmm..I can picture what I'm trying to describe but I'm not sure I'm doing a good job of describing it!
Hi Jennifer,
Yes, I agree that it would be worthwhile for Jana to experiment and see if little changes will make Mikado more comfortable. Some horses respond very dramatically to what seems like a very small change.
My comments come from seeing pictures of his hooves at the beginning of January and seeing ridges and evidence of a lamellar wedge that indicate there had been inflammation going on for quite a while even before Mikado's latest bout with laminitis. Jana had asked vets about the ridges and was told they weren't an issue. I know a farrier's job is very difficult in dealing with a chronic situation like that - there is only so much they can do. I also know that he has been very supportive of her trying different approaches to get Mikado comfortable. I much prefer barefoot myself but have to respect the fact that Mikado's farrier has kept his hooves in remarkably good shape for a horse with chronic laminitis.
Barb in western CO
(with Sierra, Libby, Josie the donkey, Lola and Katie)
2005
EC Primary Response
www.ecirhorse.org
Yes, I agree that it would be worthwhile for Jana to experiment and see if little changes will make Mikado more comfortable. Some horses respond very dramatically to what seems like a very small change.
My comments come from seeing pictures of his hooves at the beginning of January and seeing ridges and evidence of a lamellar wedge that indicate there had been inflammation going on for quite a while even before Mikado's latest bout with laminitis. Jana had asked vets about the ridges and was told they weren't an issue. I know a farrier's job is very difficult in dealing with a chronic situation like that - there is only so much they can do. I also know that he has been very supportive of her trying different approaches to get Mikado comfortable. I much prefer barefoot myself but have to respect the fact that Mikado's farrier has kept his hooves in remarkably good shape for a horse with chronic laminitis.
Barb in western CO
(with Sierra, Libby, Josie the donkey, Lola and Katie)
2005
EC Primary Response
www.ecirhorse.org
jennifer
This is amazing! I didn't know that would even be possible, I thought ridges would have to grow out. He got rid of them in four weeks! He must be really a great farrier, I can see why Jana trusts him. How is it done, to get rid of ridges that fast without growing them out?
There is so much I still don't know about hooves.
Perhaps the farrier would be willing to make a few little tweaks to see if that makes Mikado more comfortable.
There has been rotation, right? I'm a barefoot trimmer myself, so I don't know much about shoeing. I can understand though why the farrier would want the toe wall to be unsupported if there has been rotation.
Jennifer in Germany
Laramie July 2011
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
There is so much I still don't know about hooves.
Perhaps the farrier would be willing to make a few little tweaks to see if that makes Mikado more comfortable.
There has been rotation, right? I'm a barefoot trimmer myself, so I don't know much about shoeing. I can understand though why the farrier would want the toe wall to be unsupported if there has been rotation.
Jennifer in Germany
Laramie July 2011
--- In EquineCushings@..., "Barb" <bmccray@...> wrote:
My comments come from seeing pictures of his hooves at the beginning of January and seeing ridges and evidence of a lamellar wedge that indicate there had been inflammation going on for quite a while even before Mikado's latest bout with laminitis.
Hi Jennifer,
I don't want to mislead you - the ridges have not grown out, just been rasped off at this point.
I have seen different ways of dealing with a lamellar wedge - a vertical cut to keep it free from pressure and a total removal by rasping the hoof wall. Do you belong to EC Hoof? There are some interesting pictures in a folder called "aLamina or Lamellar Wedge and it's removal" -
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHoof/photos/album/1670502773/pic/list
The first 3 pics are from Pete Ramey and show a close up and fascinating view of what is going on in the hoof wall when a lamellar wedge is present. There are also pictures of a lamellar wedge being removed from a hoof.
Another fascinating picture that shows how just a little change can make a big difference is in the photo section here called "Walking on Wall Changes" -
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/photos/album/1798015829/pic/list
Just relieving the pressure on the walls of this horse made a big difference. BTW, this is another hoof where the ridges and much of the lamellar wedge have been rasped off.
Barb in western CO
(with Sierra, Libby, Josie the donkey, Lola and Katie)
2005
EC Primary Response
www.ecirhorse.org
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I don't want to mislead you - the ridges have not grown out, just been rasped off at this point.
I have seen different ways of dealing with a lamellar wedge - a vertical cut to keep it free from pressure and a total removal by rasping the hoof wall. Do you belong to EC Hoof? There are some interesting pictures in a folder called "aLamina or Lamellar Wedge and it's removal" -
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHoof/photos/album/1670502773/pic/list
The first 3 pics are from Pete Ramey and show a close up and fascinating view of what is going on in the hoof wall when a lamellar wedge is present. There are also pictures of a lamellar wedge being removed from a hoof.
Another fascinating picture that shows how just a little change can make a big difference is in the photo section here called "Walking on Wall Changes" -
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/photos/album/1798015829/pic/list
Just relieving the pressure on the walls of this horse made a big difference. BTW, this is another hoof where the ridges and much of the lamellar wedge have been rasped off.
Barb in western CO
(with Sierra, Libby, Josie the donkey, Lola and Katie)
2005
EC Primary Response
www.ecirhorse.org
--- In EquineCushings@..., "jennifer" <jennifermandy@...> wrote:
This is amazing! I didn't know that would even be possible, I thought ridges would have to grow out. He got rid of them in four weeks! He must be really a great farrier, I can see why Jana trusts him. How is it done, to get rid of ridges that fast without growing them out?
jennifer
Oh duh- now I feel like a dunce, haha! Rasped off, okay, now I know what you mean. I thought that would be purely aesthetic and didn't know it was something that should be done. *blushes*
I've seen the pics in the first link (on ECHoof, with Ramey's ) before. I didn't know Mikado had a lamellar wedge.
Thank you for taking the time to post this for me! Now I'll cross my fingers hoping the farrier will make a few more little improvements, and that those will help Mikado.
Jennifer in Germany
Laramie July 2011
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I've seen the pics in the first link (on ECHoof, with Ramey's ) before. I didn't know Mikado had a lamellar wedge.
Thank you for taking the time to post this for me! Now I'll cross my fingers hoping the farrier will make a few more little improvements, and that those will help Mikado.
Jennifer in Germany
Laramie July 2011
--- In EquineCushings@..., "Barb" <bmccray@...> wrote:
Hi Jennifer,
I don't want to mislead you - the ridges have not grown out, just been rasped off at this point.
Hi Jennifer,
No need to feel like a dunce!! The wedge doesn't necessarily have to be totally rasped off - some people would say definitely not but some farriers/trimmers do and some people feel it can be very helpful. It's another one of those areas where you will hear a zillion different opinions. The only totally wrong opinion (IMO!) are the trimmers that do not believe in addressing the lamellar wedge at all. Unfortunately there seem to be quite a few barefoot trimmers in that group.
Mikado's farrier had been keeping his wedge in check and had done a very nice job of keeping breakover back appropriately with the shoe. You wouldn't have had any way of knowing all that though since you hadn't seen any previous pictures. :) I will have to ask Jana if I can post the previous pics from early January.
Yes, I'm hoping too that by playing with the padding and tweaking the trim a bit that Jana and her farrier can get Mikado more comfortable.
I'm so glad that Larry is doing better!
Barb in western CO
(with Sierra, Libby, Josie the donkey, Lola and Katie)
2005
EC Primary Response
www.ecirhorse.org
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
No need to feel like a dunce!! The wedge doesn't necessarily have to be totally rasped off - some people would say definitely not but some farriers/trimmers do and some people feel it can be very helpful. It's another one of those areas where you will hear a zillion different opinions. The only totally wrong opinion (IMO!) are the trimmers that do not believe in addressing the lamellar wedge at all. Unfortunately there seem to be quite a few barefoot trimmers in that group.
Mikado's farrier had been keeping his wedge in check and had done a very nice job of keeping breakover back appropriately with the shoe. You wouldn't have had any way of knowing all that though since you hadn't seen any previous pictures. :) I will have to ask Jana if I can post the previous pics from early January.
Yes, I'm hoping too that by playing with the padding and tweaking the trim a bit that Jana and her farrier can get Mikado more comfortable.
I'm so glad that Larry is doing better!
Barb in western CO
(with Sierra, Libby, Josie the donkey, Lola and Katie)
2005
EC Primary Response
www.ecirhorse.org
Oh duh- now I feel like a dunce, haha! Rasped off, okay, now I know what you mean. I thought that would be purely aesthetic and didn't know it was something that should be done. *blushes*
I've seen the pics in the first link (on ECHoof, with Ramey's ) before. I didn't know Mikado had a lamellar wedge.
jennifer
Oh no, I meant the ridges! I thought the ridges are only rasped off for aesthetic purposes, I didn't know it's beneficial to rasp them off. :) I'm making a really bad job of making myself clear, just as bad as getting my brain around everything, these days. Haha! Having a busy week, probably just too exhausted to post!
Thank you for thinking of Larry. We are very relieved too!
Jennifer in Germany
Laramie July 2011
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Thank you for thinking of Larry. We are very relieved too!
Jennifer in Germany
Laramie July 2011
--- In EquineCushings@..., "Barb" <bmccray@...> wrote:
Hi Jennifer,
No need to feel like a dunce!! The wedge doesn't necessarily have to be totally rasped off
Oh - the ridges! No, I don't know of any reason to necessarily rasp them off. Farriers tend to remove them more as a cosmetic thing I think. Jana's farrier probably removed them in the process of removing flared hoof wall and the wedge.
I'm not sure I should be emailing and trying to explain things either right now. :) But as long as we eventually figure it out we're ok I think.
Take care,
Barb in western CO
(with Sierra, Libby, Josie the donkey, Lola and Katie)
2005
EC Primary Response
www.ecirhorse.org
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I'm not sure I should be emailing and trying to explain things either right now. :) But as long as we eventually figure it out we're ok I think.
Take care,
Barb in western CO
(with Sierra, Libby, Josie the donkey, Lola and Katie)
2005
EC Primary Response
www.ecirhorse.org
Oh no, I meant the ridges! I thought the ridges are only rasped off for aesthetic purposes, I didn't know it's beneficial to rasp them off
jennifer
Thank you for explaining! It's all a learning process. Actually I'm glad there is so much to learn, makes me feel less helpless and more proactive. :)
Jennifer in Germany
Laramie July 2011
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Jennifer in Germany
Laramie July 2011
--- In EquineCushings@..., "Barb" <bmccray@...> wrote:
I'm not sure I should be emailing and trying to explain things either right now. :) But as long as we eventually figure it out we're ok I think.