I posted message #164026 on Tuesday with a few questions I still have. Sabrina did not want to get up for her breakfast at all when we went out at 5 this AM. Received her Soft Rides with dual density orthos last night & tried them on for fit. Didn't leave them on for the night until she wore them during the day. This AM when she finally got up, she was in typical stance rocked back on rear feet, shifting fronts. Cannot feel any pulse or excessive warmth. We finally managed to get boots on (after she almost went down twice) which gave almost immediate relief. Just checked her, she's standing normally eating hay from her slow feeder.

Can't link to her case history. She gets ODTB 8.25 lbs. divided in 3 meals. About 10 lbs. tested .2 + 4.6. Iodized salt, Microlactin, 4 oz. fresh ground flax, 4 tsp. Al-Car, 2000 I.U. Vit. E, 3000 mg magnesium.

Just recently started, then stopped AAKG and ginseng. Her J-herb should come today.

Biggest problem is getting to the why.
1. If it's winter laminatis (we wrap her legs at night, sometimes during the day-just ordered Whinny Warmers), does it run a regular, lengthy course, or would mild temps put an early end to it? If so, that's not the cause, because we are now in the 50's and 60's, after 25 for a few nights a week or so ago.

2. Noticed her crest got larger and harder a couple of months ago when the rainy (muddy/greasy) season came and she had to stay in 10x30 stall. Could be lack of exercise? I can't walk her now due to pain.

3. Wondering about iron - we're on well water. Want to test insulin/glucose and ACTH, again and pull blood for lyme and iron, but we have to wait for laminitis to subside. Should I get vet just for iron and lyme tests? When he was here in January, he didn't think it was worth doing iron, but I've spent hours reading the files since.

4. Recently beet pulp brand changed from Mid-West Agri to LaBudde Group and she refused to eat the LaBudde. Could the Mid-West have had a slightly higher sugar content, been more palatable to her, and would it cause a "slow" build-up of sugars in her system? We definitely r/s/r.

She had 2 gr bute on Tuesday, but nothing since. I'm resisting even though it hurts us, too.

Should we soak her feet and if so, warm or cool. Probably not ice since it could be the cold to begin with. Remember, strangely, as bad as she was this AM, I couldn't detect a pulse or excessive warmth.

Additionally, her feet are so very hard, it's difficult to trim them. Best suggestion for some softening, taking into account she's now booted?

If we can't figure out the "why" and try to correct it, we're going to lose her. I'm at my wit's end here.

Gayle and Sabrina
3/2006
Fairview, TN

Hi Gayle

Thanks for updating your Case History. Here's the link. Tuck it away somewhere on a separate document for later retrieval. You can cut and paste it to subsequent posts.

<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory/files/Sabrina/>

Based on your feet and symptom description, I'd be getting the farrier/trimmer out. I'd not be laying my money on winter laminitis based on your temps.

Without photos and rads it's hard to say exactly but you need a trim that supports or possible realigns the coffin bone. She could be standing the way you describe because her heels are just too high and toes too long putting stress on the lamina. Soaking the feet usually works for me in softening them.

To get the best outcome balance your for deficiencies and excesses in minerals in the 10 pounds of hay. didn't appear that you are doing that. She's getting only half of what she needs in terms of copper, zinc, selenium, maybe iodine from the ODTB Cubes.

This message is a similar situation to your own re ODTB Cubes and balancing, if I'm reading you right:

<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/163982>

You had success with ALCAR. You could go as high as 18 grams but it won't have the same effect if the above is missing.

Crest could be higher due to pain and lack of exercise.

I would wait on blood work until pain is better. Glad she has relief in the boots but I'd look hard a the trim. Taking digital photos just for your own review will tell you lots of info. If you do the KSU iron panel you can rule out or rule in iron overload.

It's good that she's better in boots so take heart from that. It's good to focus on DDTE in stressful times like these:

Diagnosis - get more blood work when the pain is relieved.
Diet - tighten as above
Trim - tighten as above
Exercise - move her when she's able.

Keep breathing.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

NewEnglandEquineBalance@...

Nancy, thank you so much for your support. I'm really dumb, though, and just have more questions.

Based on your feet and symptom description, I'd be getting the farrier/trimmer out. I'd not be laying my money on winter laminitis based on your temps.

We don't have a farrier any longer. We went through 4. They'd do fine for 6 months to a year, then make her sore. The last one was just about a year. Then, 3 days after he'd come, just like clockwork, she'd get sore footed for a day or so. We spoke to him about this repeatedly, but he took it as an insult, and finally just stopped coming. He told me that he trims his laminitic and foundered horses with short toe and low heal. I said I didn't doubt he was doing what usually worked, but it wasn't working for her. He got insulted and quit. We haven't been able to find anyone else. Hubby does her feet. He has her toes short and rounded and heels down, but what do we know?

The reason I thought of winter laminitis is that when I look back through my past posts, her problems recur between December and February.

I've read #163982 three times. I'm giving her twelve 25 mg tablets of human NatureMade Magnesium daily. Is that not enough, or should I add the Remission? Or, should I continue with the magnesium I'm giving her and add the Integrity Hoof. I just read the ingredients and it has both "corn distillers grains with solubles, alfalfa meal". A problem for a super-sensitive horse?

How much of the Platinum Performance would Sabrina need, the same 1 mg?

I used to use Source, so I'll pick it up again. The same 1/2 tsp. you told Deb?

My mom is living w/me now and she's ill. Things have been disappearing (car keys, etc.). I think that may be what happened to my camera. I'll just have to bite the bullet and buy a new one. I'm not sure about x-rays, because the last time the vet brought his machine, they didn't come out well. Our lower electric supply (than his) was blamed. I'm not sure we should transport her the 35 miles one way at this time. I'll talk to him about a farm visit. If he comes, could I do the lyme and iron immediately, or should I wait until she's ready for the insulin, etc.?



"Soaking the feet usually works for me in softening them."

Do you soak in warm or barely cool water? Do you put anything in the water?

Crest could be higher due to pain and lack of exercise.

When the crest got harder a couple of months ago, there was no pain, but she definitely was not getting enough exercise.

Keep breathing.

I'm trying. Thank you.

Gayle and Sabrina
3/2006
Fairview, TN

Hi Gayle

You're not dumb just stressed out and rightfully so. Hope I can simplify.

You mention in you CH you are feeding hay tested at low ESC and starch. Did you also get the minerals analyzed? If not would you? That will allow us to cut to the chase and finely tune the diet.

Keep the mag as you are doing or better yet, look for feed grade mag ox. You may have to special order it. You may be able to add more if we know what our hay mineral profile looks like.

Add the Integrity Hoof. The amount of alfalfa has not effected IR horses that have trialed or regularly used the product. Distillers grains in this amount are not an issue.

For now yes, on the Platinum Performance at 1 mg and 1/4 tsp of Source. That maybe can come up a tad more but I need to run some numbers and if you have or get a hay analysis, I can do it all at once.


<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/104392>

You may have winter laminitis but you've got all the helpful components in place or on their way, right? Wraps, jiaogulan, aakg.

Did you ever work with a barefoot trimmer? Seems to me there was one in TN that members had reported being very happy with. Not that you guys aren't doing a good job, but sometimes it helps to have another pair of eyes. Seeing pics would be great but getting a trimmer out might be the fastest, best way to go, if I'm remembering correctly that there is a good one in TN.

I don't think I would transport her 35 miles for rads right now either based on what you have described. But if you can get some trim help, maybe you can make her comfortable enough to make the ride.

Hang in there, Gayle. Hope I got everything?

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

NewEnglandEquineBalance@...

You mention in you CH you are feeding hay tested at low ESC and starch. Did you also get the minerals analyzed? If not would you? That will allow us to cut to the chase and finely tune the diet.

I checked the hay report in my case history. I guess the calcium, phosphorus, magnesium, etc. are not what you need. I looked at Equi-Analytical website. Is #604 what I need?

Add the Integrity Hoof.

Will order.

For now yes, on the Platinum Performance at 1 mg and 1/4 tsp of Source.

Will order.

You may have winter laminitis but you've got all the helpful components in place or on their way, right? Wraps, jiaogulan, aakg.

This is where I get confused. Dr. K told me to stop AAKG. Message #163954, which I had already done. I started her on J tonight. Put it with a tbs. of flax and she gobbled it right down.

Did you ever work with a barefoot trimmer? Seems to me there was one in TN that members had reported being very happy with.

All four we worked with were barefoot trimmers. I'd love the name of another to try. There's a really good one, a lady named Gwen, who came once, but she won't come as far as we are anymore.

She was so painful this PM she could hardly walk, but I still couldn't detect a pulse or any heat. I just don't get it.

Thank you again for all your advice.

Gayle & Sabrina
3/2006
Fairview, TN

HI Gayle,

I checked the hay report in my case history. I guess the calcium, phosphorus, magnesium, etc. are not what you need.

Yes,we need those.We also look for the trace minerals,copper,zinc,manganese.
Test 603 will get these.

Here is your case history link.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory/files/Sabrina/

Can you include it in your signature when you post? That makes it easier for folks to find it,rather than having to dig for it amongst all the others.

Hang on.It will get better soon.
Things will start falling into place for you.It's just a bit of a nightmare at the beginning, but really worth the sweat, and tears.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

Hi Gayle

Always go with what Dr Kellon says!

The hay in your file looks to be from 2010. Is that what you are feeding? If not, you want Equi-Analytical #603. Hay can vary from year to year depending on grower practices.

They can have extreme discomfort with out heat and/or pulses. When you had barefoot trims before were you using boots as well?

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

NewEnglandEquineBalance@...

Thanks, Lorna and Nancy. We've been down this road before, but never so severely.

Nancy, you're absolutely correct - 2010 hay. The truckload we managed to buy this past season tested OK in protein, etc., but higher in sugar/starch. Then it turned out even our cow won't eat it. Expensive bedding for the cow. We've been trying to meet up w/a man with supposedly low s/s prairie grass for several months, but he's out of town on weekends. Is prairie grass an OK hay in general?

No, we weren't using boots with our barefoot trimmers. Stopped using them as soon as she was sound. Like I said, she hasn't been this bad since maybe the first time in '06.

This AM she not only didn't want to stand, she was lying out flat and didn't even pick her head up much. It killed us, but we left her and her breakfast and came in to get hubby off to work. He ran out 20 min. later to peek, and she was up, eating her soaked ODTB breakfast. We didn't see her walk. Wondered if the extreme symptoms could be reaction to her first dose of J-herb that she got last night?

OT, but I'll only be able to check in intermittently because my computer got a virus yesterday PM and is totally frozen. Have to get to another PC to get online.

Just checked her again-one hour after hubby did. She's cleaned up her cubes and is munching hay. Still haven't seen how she's walking but last night was clump, clump.

Thanks again.

Gayle and Sabrina
3/2006
Fairview, TN
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory/files/Sabrina/

Gayle, not a guru here, just been through a very long time (18 months) of seeing my pony lay down most of the time. I just want to give you some moral support!!! :) Just stop and slow down for a few minutes - it used to help me to just go hang out with Buttercup. You have so much stuff on your plate right now the forest and the trees are all one. If you can find a way to just step back for a few minutes and take a deep breath perhaps the fog will clear a bit for you. Perhaps you can take a pen and paper and put down what you are doing and write in another column what the gurus are telling you to do. Then maybe you can see what needs to be adjusted. I am one to tell you that the smallest detail that doesn't really seem such a big deal can be the key to the unlock everything. Please take a cup of tea or a bath or time to read a magazine and remove yourself from the situation. It's so hard to see what's going on when you are in the thick of it. Please hang in. I can tell you that it was worth every single bit of crazy, intense work to see my Butters gallop across the paddock last week. You are strong because you are dealing with a lot and still sane. I know you can do this! The horses (and ponies) are very resiliant (spelling). You would be surprised how well they can rally back.
Can your phone take pix of the hooves? Anything would be a good start right now on that front. It just may be the trim as Nancy suggested.
Pam/Butters/Frosty
12/10
Virginia

Hi Pam,

Gayle, not a guru here, just been through a very long time (18 months) of seeing my pony lay down most of the time.

<snip>

Please hang in. I can tell you that it was worth every single bit of crazy, intense work to see my Butters gallop across the paddock last week.

Ahem.

The above makes you a guru in your own right!!

Thanks for a great post to Gayle,and others who are in the same boat.

You can be sure you're not alone,Gayle.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

Hi Gayle

Unfortunately you just won't know about the prairie grass until you test. It may be okay, but it also might not be. If you can get a sample to run off an ESC and Starch before buying that's the best scenario. It's not always doable.

The jherb should make her feel better when you reach the right dose. Are you checking her gums to see if they are more pink? It will have less of a positive effect if the trim is not right.

Privately sent you two names of trimmers last night. Let me know if you didn't get them.

I know how hard this is to watch but take heart in the fact that she is eating and drinking well (right?) and pooping. It's sound easy for volunteers to throw out the list of things you need to do but we've all been right where you are. Pam's post is right on. Make a cup of tea and make her list and then take it one bite at a time. You've made good headway on the road to putting more diet things in place.

Go out and give Sabrina a hug. And keep breathing.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

NewEnglandEquineBalance@...

You've gotten great help so far, just a few short things.

Unless I missed something, your hay S/S is unknown, making it the most likely culprit. You should soak.

Fine to add BP to the ODTB cubes, but no need to lower them. They are safe. In fact, you could increase and just use some soaked hay for chew time.

Prairie hay is usually good but no guarantees, need to test.

Doubt the J is causing pain, but that's possible if she has collections/abscesses to mobilize. In that case, it's a good thing.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001

Hello Gayle,

As you have perhaps found, not every person who advertises themselves as a barefoot trimmer is necessarily trained in the correct methodologies or highly experienced. And the ones that are trained and certified are often too far away from us to be able to come the every 4 to 6 weeks that it takes to get the hoof right.

In any case, Check the following websites for lists of certified trimmers. There is one in particular that does work in Tennessee. his name is Steve Johnson, and his contact information is on the liberated horsemanship site. I haven't used Steve (no horse of my own right now), but he comes recommended by my natural hoof care trimmer in Pennsylvania (Nancy Frishkorn).

http://www.liberatedhorsemanship.com
http://www.aanhcp.net

Barbara
Middle Tennessee (Baxter)
Sept 2007

Hi, Gayle -

Just wanted to second the moral support, and Pam's really excellent advice. It is beyond difficult to watch our horses when they are hurting - but hang on to the thought that Sabrina is eating, drinking, and pooping, and hang on to the knowledge that this will get sorted out, and she will be on the road to recovery.

For the moment, I would definitely be soaking her hay.

Can't remember what your future blood pull plans are at the moment, but I would for sure get a Lyme and an ACTH asap.

Hang in there - go look in Sabrina's eyes, and she will give you strength.

Jaini,Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC09
EC Support

Gosh, Pam, what a great post!

LeeAnne - can we please get this into the files, under "Encouragement", or "What to do when you are at your wits' end" ?

Jaini,Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC09
EC moderator

(I left the whole post in, because it can be re-read many times)

Dr. Kellon, thank you for responding.

Unless I missed something, your hay S/S is unknown, making it the most likely culprit. You should soak.

Her hay is timothy/grass - starch .2 and ESC 4.6.

Fine to add BP to the ODTB cubes, but no need to lower them. They are safe.

She just stopped eating BP when the co-op changed company brands about 1.5 weeks ago, so we increased her ODTB cubes.

Prairie hay is usually good but no guarantees, need to test.>

We'll definitely test. Just didn't know anything about it.

My mom's physical therapist just left. She's also a horsewoman. She went out to meet Sabrina and pressed on many "pressure points" on her back, shoulders, and legs. She didn't elicit any pain response so it's got to be her feet. Pulse was up to about 72 though - pain.

She's had 2 doses of J-herb. Her gums are pink, but pale pink, just like her son's. Am I looking for pinker than normal?

Gayle & Sabrina
3/2006
Fairview, TN
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory/files/Sabrina/

Thank you all for the great words. I just start crying as I read these posts. I guess I wouldn't be so devastated if I could narrow down a reason. Her diet's good though. She's been on it for years now. I just found my camera, so we'll see if we can get pictures tonight or tomorrow AM regarding the trim. I'm going to try to order the minerals from this computer. I really miss my desktop with all its bookmarks.

I just can't come up with a reason, so we can't try to fix it.

You're all blessed people, but folks who love four-legged babies, big and small, are special.

Gayle and Sabrina
3/2006
Fairview, TN
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory/files/Sabrina/

Hi Gayle

I've been looking for "the reason" for twelve years now. It's rarely - if ever - just one thing. Would that were so....

Glad I remembered the low S&S on your hay correctly. Even so, you could try to soak or raise the ODTB Cubes to hay ratio and see if it helps.

Your gums should be pinker than what is normal for her when the jherb dose is correct. It took my guy about two days to respond.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

NewEnglandEquineBalance@...

Here we go again. This is why hubby does her feet. I just contacted a natural trimmer with the designation AANHCP - Certified Practioner. We talked. He said
1. Get her off the J-herb.
2. Stop the ODTB cubes, especially since they have BP in them.
3. No beet pulp.
4. Put her on hay only. He never even questioned what kind of hay we're feeding.

We were cut off before we finished talking. That's good, because I didn't want to make him mad, but I don't want to take her off her ODTB and let her live on old hay. I know if we had him here for a trim and he found we weren't following his feeding instructions, that would be the end of the relationship, as has happened with the other farriers we've tried.

He just called back, said we should get her off everything but hay and add vit. D. I told him her hay was old and has lost most of its value, but he stuck to his guns. I don't think this is going to work.

2 questions:

What about vitamin D since our sun has been so non-existent?

I was reading the files again regarding Phyto-Quench since it was delivered today. I'm gathering it should not be fed with the J-herb. Also, what about the J-herb? She's in terrible pain. According to what I find in the messages, stop the herb if it's acute laminitis. I don't know if that's what we're dealing with. Remember, only lightly detectable pulse sometimes, and no heat.

Who started the merry-go-round up?

Gayle and Sabrina
3/2006
Fairview, TN
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory/files/Sabrina/

Hi Gayle,

He said
1. Get her off the J-herb.
2. Stop the ODTB cubes, especially since they have BP in them.
3. No beet pulp.
4. Put her on hay only. He never even questioned what kind of hay we're feeding.

Did you ask him "why" the above?

Gads,is this the GMO thing wrt Beet Pulp? Did he say?

Take a deep breath.Listen to your gut.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf