Oh no, extremely high wsc! Would you feed this?


mirald82
 

Ok so if I understand the following correctly there IS actually a chance that such a high level of WSC in hay could cause laminitis?

"It tells us 1 g/kg, or 500 g (17.6 ounces) for a 500 kg horse does not cause
laminitis. If that horse was eating 10 kg/day of hay this would amount to a 5%
difference between WSC and ESC, e.g. WSC 13%, ESC 7%.

At 5 g/kg, 2500 g or 2.5 kg for a 500 kg horse, it would be a 25% difference
between WSC and ESC for a horse eating 10 kg of hay, or WSC 32%, ESC 7%. That's
a very, very high WSC and it produced laminitis in 37.5% of horses in that
study. This is a lower dose than Pollitt used but still much, much higher than
what we typically see."

If they had tested 24% WSC like what's in this hay, it might have given say 25% of the horses laminitis. We don't know for sure what the safe amount is. And my horse could be one of those who are sensitive to fructan.

I feel like I'm feeding him poison. :(

Just been to a farm to collect samples of new hay. He had a few bales of hay from last year he could sell me while I wait for the results of the analysis. He didn't have a sugar analysis but said he'd sold some of it to a laminitic and that horse had been ok on it.

What do you think?? I KNOW this hay is dreadful, should I chance it and buy some of the last year's hay while I wait for a new analysis? They can hardly be worse than what I've got....

The only hays I've found with a sugar analysis is wet haylage which I'm not keen on feeding, plus I don't know how they've taken the samples.

/Maria
Sweden
March 2011

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Lorna" <briars@...> wrote:



I'll try to upload the new report!

Great,Maria.

You can also make use of the Archives to review some of the many fructan discussions we've had here.

Here is one message from Dr. Kellon that might help.

130040

There are many more.I just typed in WSC Kellon. Fructans Kellon would work,too.



Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


mirald82
 

I uploaded the new analysis so you can have a look at it.

/Maria
Sweden
March 2011

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/Maria%20and%20Mirald%2C%20Sweden/


Lorna <briars@...>
 

Hi Maria,


Your ESC+Starch went from 8.4% last time to 11.7% this time.
We use As Sampled or As Fed results.

I see this as significant.

Is there any sign of gut upset?


Sorry,I'm in and out today so hopefully someone else will add to the conversation.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


Lorna <briars@...>
 

If they had tested 24% WSC like what's in this hay, it might have given say 25% of the horses laminitis. We don't know for sure what the safe amount is. And my horse could be one of those who are sensitive to fructan.
I suppose anything is possible.
But the paragraph you didn't quote also mentions even very high levels of fructans not causing insulin spikes.It presents in a similar fashion to laminitis caused by grain overload.

Please trim the old material from your posts to make it easier for Digest readers,ok?


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


mirald82
 

Yes I did see that, but still. Too much fructan DOES cause laminitis, even though it's through a different route. And I now have a sore horse with a bounding pulse in his legs. To me it seems that the hay must be the culprit?

What else could it be?

Have you or anyone else here ever had a hay with 24% WSC? Would you feed it?

/Maria
Sweden
March 2011


merlin5clougher <janieclougher@...>
 

Hi, Maria - I would say the hay is definitely the culprit - 11.4% ESC is more than enough to do it for my horses (I speak from experience).

If I were you, I would try to stock up on last year's hay, if possible. You will for sure have to soak this new hay. Forgive me if I missed this, but is Mirald getting the soreness and pulses on the new hay soaked, or dry?

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC09
EC mod/support

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/


And I now have a sore horse with a bounding pulse in his legs. To me it seems that the hay must be the culprit?


What else could it be?

Have you or anyone else here ever had a hay with 24% WSC? Would you feed it?

/Maria
Sweden
March 2011


mirald82
 

Yes, that could of course also be a factor. But it's still not far from the recommended 10%, and subtracting a percentage from soaking, it should be below 10. That's why I'm suspecting the fructans may be a problem for him. I didn't buy much of this hay, so need to find something else now anyway.

But it's so difficult knowing what to do. Apparently this hay is NOT good for him, be it the ESC/starch or the fructans that's the problem. But no matter what else I get him, there will be about 2 weeks until I know the sugar content, ie two weeks of eating hay that could be either dangerous or perfect.

The only thing I've managed to find that already have a sugar analysis is haylage. I have found a batch which has only 6.5% sugar per kg/dry matter. But it's done with the NIR method and I don't know how they have taken the samples. Also it's only 65% DM. I've never fed haylage and am not sure how it works for laminitics? Isit safe to feed haylage?

Not really, except he seems a bit sad and depressed. But I don't know if that's from stomach pain, sore feet or simply because I increased pergolide too much.

He was a little iffy a while back, when I suspcted he'd been given mouldy hay. Not really lame but slightly uneven at trot so rested him for a while. Then he was fine again, frisky and wanting to trot, and sound. Now these last few days he's been worse again, more pulse and not quite as keen to walk out. Have stopped walking him and only have him in his paddock (which is all gravel/sand).

/Maria
Sweden
March 2011
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/Maria%20and%20Mirald%2C%20Sweden/


Your ESC+Starch went from 8.4% last time to 11.7% this time.
We use As Sampled or As Fed results.


mirald82
 

Hi Jainie,
I have been soaking it, so yes, he's getting sore from it when soaked.

There's not much of last year's hay to be had I'm afraid. This neighbour that I saw today had just a little bit left. Plus there's no analysis, only know that he had sold of it to other laminitics. But I'm going over there to get a couple of weeks worth anyway, must have something to feed.... But I'm thinking of replacing a couple of kilos of hay with Kwikbeet, that's a good idea right? Horse is not overly fond of it but hopefully he'll eat it if hungry.

The farmer had new hay drying in the barn too so I took samples from that (no use sampling last year's as it's so few bales left, it'll be eaten before I get the results). It was all loose so could only get from the top and sides, but took from various places. It was cut mid July so hopefully will not have as much sugar since it was warmer. If it's ok I'll buy it, but I won't know until I get results, which takes about two weeks.

What do you think about haylage? Do or don't for our horses?
It's a vet who is selling it and it comes with quality guarantee. I prefer hay though, but imagine only 6.5% sugar per kg DM. Have emailed asking how the sample is taken. It's far away (6 hours) so I have no opportunity so inspect or take my own samples, and will have to buy a lorry full for it to be worth the transport costs.

/Maria
Sweden
March 2011

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/Maria%20and%20Mirald%2C%20Sweden/


merlin5clougher <janieclougher@...>
 

Hi, Maria -



--- In EquineCushings@..., "mirald82" <rolfo46@...> wrote:

Hi Jainie,
I have been soaking it, so yes, he's getting sore from it when soaked.
****Well, nuts! So, clearly, that new hay is just not going to work.*****


What do you think about haylage? Do or don't for our horses?
It's a vet who is selling it and it comes with quality guarantee. I prefer hay though, but imagine only 6.5% sugar per kg DM..
****Well made haylage should be fine; the only concern would be the potential for botulism (a concern in any fermented product). If you are feeding haylage, vaccinating your horses for botulism is a good idea.******

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC09
EC mod/support

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/


lars_a_swe
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "mirald82" <rolfo46@...> wrote:

What do you think about haylage? Do or don't for our horses?
Hi Maria,

I'm not Jainie, but here are my thoughts.

It is extremely unlikely that your horse would have become laminitic due to carbohydrate overload. Your hay only contains 11.4% fructan. I have seen much higher values. A Norwegian friend of mine for example had a very sensitive horse that always had loose stools and sore feet. It wasn't until she fed a haylage with 13.9% DM fructan (WSC = 22.3%) that the loose stools disappeared and the horse was sore no more!

My hay also has a much higher WSC value this year (18.4% DM). Since ESC = 9.1% DM the fructan content is 9.3%, i.e. not so far from yours and I'm not soaking my hay. I have fed it to my horse and he hasn't become laminitic yet!

Remember also that all the ponies in Pollitt's fructan study got severe diarrhea. Does your horse have severe diarrhea? If not, you can exclude carbohydrate overload as the culprit.

If your horse has a laminitic episode the most likely cause is high insulin. It may be the high sugar content of your hay or it may be uncontrolled PPID or something else.

Regarding haylage, there is really no disadvantage in feeding haylage to a laminitic horse as long as it is adequately produced and properly handled. It is the nutrient content and the hygienic quality of the forage that matters.

Lars
Sweden, July 2008


mirald82
 

Hi Lars and Jainie,

the haylage I was considering is from vetfoder.se, and they cut high to reduce the risk of botulism. I still feel a bit concerned though, and I try not to vaccinate more than absolutely necessary. But I'll keep it in mind as a last resort!

It is extremely unlikely that your horse would have become laminitic due to carbohydrate overload. Your hay only contains 11.4% fructan. I have seen much higher values. A Norwegian friend of mine for example had a very sensitive horse that always had loose stools and sore feet. It wasn't until she fed a haylage with 13.9% DM fructan (WSC = 22.3%) that the loose stools disappeared and the horse was sore no more!
That is indeed very interesting information. What I've been contemplating lately is if he might have some sort of leaky gut syndrome? He's always on the slim side despite eating lots.

Remember also that all the ponies in Pollitt's fructan study got severe diarrhea. Does your horse have severe diarrhea? If not, you can exclude carbohydrate overload as the culprit.
No he doesn't have diarrheam but I'll have a closer look to see if they're softer than usual.

If your horse has a laminitic episode the most likely cause is high insulin. It may be the high sugar content of your hay or it may be uncontrolled PPID or something else.
I recently increased his Prascend to 4 mg, thinking he must not be getting enough (that was before I got results on the hay). In the past when he has had pulses, increasing pergolide has normally improved him after only a couple of days. Not this time though. Wish I had a better vet and could get an ACTH test.

I wouldn't say he has full blown laminitis, more like "bordeline laminitis" or light laminitis. Teethering on the edge with strong pulse and sore feet. He isn't lame at walk but I haven't tried trotting him. He's also stiff when asked to turn around sharply, esp when coming out of his stable in the morning, he's hesitating to turn in the stable aisle.

With the ESC+starch at 11.7% and soaking, can that still be too high? The hay is very fine and stemmy, not coarse, no clover or alfalfa so no reason it should be unresponsive to soaking. I have started soaking it twice, then rinsing. Maybe that will help!

What else could be causing laminitis than PPID or too much sugar?

/Maria
Sweden
March 2011

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/Maria%20and%20Mirald%2C%20Sweden/


jennifer
 

Mycotoxins can. For our john mule it was a fungal infection in the intestines, poisoning him.

Jennifer in Germany
Laramie July 2011

--- In EquineCushings@..., "mirald82" <rolfo46@...> wrote:
What else could be causing laminitis than PPID or too much sugar?