Pony with Laminitis - need help


nefferdun47
 

I now have 3 horses and one pony on pergolide. My pony was started this past spring when her coat did not shed properly and she was losing weight. She is about 34 years old. Her feet began to be sore about two weeks ago. The vet told me to dose her twice a day which I have been doing but I don't see much improvement.

The vet also told me to take them off of Nutrena Safe Choice which is a low carb feed made mostly of beet pulp. He says they should be on a high protein feed with a lot of soy. I tried converting them to it but they won't eat it. I am also worried if he is right because I believe the excess protein will create ammonia. All of the ponies feed is Safe Choice because she cannot chew.

I have capsules of the jiaogulan that is 95% standardized gypenosides by Jagulana for humans (take it myself). I have been giving her two of these once a day on an empty stomach. No improvement. I just ordered some more magnesium citrate but I have magnesium oxide if you think she should be getting that.

The other horses are 27, 24 and 21 years old and not as bad off right now. The two older ones were getting second cutting hay so they could chew it but now they are getting very mature hay at least until every thing settles down. They have trouble chewing it, leave a lot of it, but they are still fat. My husband cuts the hay and we are careful to do the cutting when the temperature is above 40 degrees. I had it tested years ago and it is the same soil so probably basically the same. Back then it was 10% sugar. It is very low in selenium and a little deficient in magnesium. The copper/zinc ratio was slightly off but none of the horses would eat that supplement so I stopped giving it to them.

Thank you for your help,
Bev


Chanda
 

If you can get it in your area, I know it probably costs more, but Triple Crown Senior has lower sugar/starch level than Nutrena Safe Starch. [Don't have exact number in front of me but TC Senior is like 14% sugar/starch, and the Nutrena Safe Choice is like 23%. So a significant difference.]
If you have access to Nutrena, they have a new Safe Choice formulation called Safe Choice Special Care, and its lower in sugar/starch than regular Safe Choice. Not quite as low as the TC Senior, but better than the regular Safe choice.
Chanda
MT 9/04

--- In EquineCushings@..., "nefferdun47" <b@...> wrote:

The vet also told me to take them off of Nutrena Safe Choice which is a low carb feed made mostly of beet pulp. He says they should be on a high protein feed with a lot of soy. I tried converting them to it but they won't eat it. I am also worried if he is right because I believe the excess protein will create ammonia. All of the ponies feed is Safe Choice because she cannot chew.
Thank you for your help,
Bev


Mandy Woods
 

Hi Bev,
Where do you live? Can your feed store get you Ontario Dehy Balance Timothy cubes? This product is a complete meal, mineral balanced and can be moistened for senior ponies with chew problems. We aim for 10% or less sugar/starch a day. Neutrena Safe Choice is 22.8% sugar/starch so it is NOT safe! You do not want a high protein feed either. Have you had your hay tested for sugar/starch lately? send a sample to www.equi-analytical. com or get the complete analysis #603/The Trainer for $49. You may have to chop your hay in small pieces and then soak it for for hour and drain for your pony to chew. Is your husband cutting the hay before sunrise when the sugar is the lowest? There are some palatable supplements that have copper/zinc in them to help like California Trace. www.californiatrace.com You can add vitamin E, loose iodized table salt, magnesium oxide and freshly ground flax seed to rinsed/soaked/rinsed plain shredded beet pulp. This can be 30% of their daily diet! The Temporary Emergency Diet is in the "Start Here" file.

Is the pergolide you're giving the pony liquid or powder/capsule?

The pony should be pulled from pasture and given no access to grass, leaves, weeds etc. Let her live in a drylot with soaked/drained hay to chew on.
Do you have pads and boots for her feet? Is her trim good? Low heels and toes backed? Can she move about at liberty?
We still prescribe the DDT/E's ~ Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise. You're on the right track ~ just need to tighten the diet up!
Do you have a Case History on any of your horses? You could fill one out on the pony at
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory6/

Holler if you need anything!
And please sign with your date of joining and location.

Mandy in VA
EC Primary Response
OCT 2003


Lavinia <dnlf@...>
 

I now have 3 horses and one pony on pergolide. My pony was started this past spring when her coat did not shed properly and she was losing weight. She is about 34 years old. Her feet began to be sore about two weeks ago. The vet told me to dose her twice a day which I have been doing but I don't see much improvement.
The vet also told me to take them off of Nutrena Safe Choice which is a low carb feed made mostly of beet pulp. He says they should be on a high protein feed with a lot of soy.
I have capsules of the jiaogulan that is 95% standardized gypenosides by Jagulana for humans (take it myself). I have been giving her two of these once a day on an empty stomach.
The other horses are 27, 24 and 21 years old and not as bad off right now. The two older ones were getting second cutting hay so they could chew it but now they are getting very mature hay at least until every thing settles down. They have trouble chewing it, leave a lot of it, but they are still fat. My husband cuts the hay and we are careful to do the cutting when the temperature is above 40 degrees. I had it tested years ago and it is the same soil so probably basically the same. Back then it was 10% sugar. It is very low in selenium and a little deficient in magnesium. The copper/zinc ratio was slightly off but none of the horses would eat that supplement so I stopped giving it to them.
Hi Bev,
Have you had any bloodwork done on any of your crew? Do you have case histories up for them? The only way to tell if the dose is really correct is with bloodwork. Coat changes may or may not respond to the perg dose and if there is IR you need to get the diets in place to correct that. Adding another dose of perg per day does not have the effect of increasing control if the overall dose is too small. You need to have a single dose that correctly and fully controls the ACTH first. Adding a second dose will not correct a dose that is too small to begin with.
The maturity of the hay and the fact that it is from the same fields really doesn't tell you much about the sugar/starch/mineral content from year to year. I have gotten my hay from the same farmer for the last 11 years, always second cut, same part of the same field each year. S/S has run anywhere from 5% to 12%; copper/zinc always low; sometimes need mag, sometimes not; iron levels vary from safe to much too high. Most horses don't appreciate the taste of the copper/zinc but they still need it.
If you can get Triple Crown products you should be able to get the Ontario Dehy Balanced Timothy Cubes. Safe and all you need to add is salt, ground flax and vit E gelcaps. Soy is not recommended as it is high in Omega 6's, which feed the pro-inflammatory pathways, and low in Omega 3's. You don't need high protein but you need quality protein - two different things. Excess protein can increase IR. There is no Nutrena Feed that is actually "safe", in spite of their names and marketing. This could be part of the issue for your pony.
At 24, 27 and 34 your equines are having issues with being able to properly chew their food and extract nutrients from it even if their teeth apper to be intact. The angles of the tooth surfaces have changed and so have their digestive systems. Using more mature, stemmier hay deprives them of nutrition and there is no guarantee it has safe levels of sugar/starch. Really need to get the hay analysed and supplement for what is both deficient and excessive.
Jiaogulan won't help if the cause of the laminitis isn't addressed first. It is contraindicated while there is active inflammation going on. It needs to fed twice per day to be effective and is dosed based on changes in gum/tongue color. Can you post pics of your pony's feet so the trim can be assessed. This is also something that needs to be tight, esp if she is sore.
Rght now, going back to square one with the DDT/E's is called for to get your pony (and your other three guys) straightened out. There are too many areas that need tweaking to be able to say exactly what is the greatest problem.
Would you please add your general location and year of joining to your posts. Appreciate your help with this.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


nefferdun47
 

Thanks everyone, this is a lot of information. I do have access to Triple Crown. I tried to feed it before but the horses I was giving it to reacted to the rice bran. This pony was not one of them so I will go get some for her today. I am keeping her inside in an indoor arena so she is on sand where it is more comfortable and she cannot get any weeds or grass. The 27 year old TB is looking very gimpy too so I think I will shut him up in a smaller area. I can't keep them together because he scares her. I have timothy hay cubes but I don't know what brand they are. I will try soaking them and adding them to the other horses feed. The pony can't eat any grass. She just quids it no matter how fine it is.

I used to feed LDF Low Carb which is beet pulp based. I will check the labels to be sure I find something lower in sugar. I can't believe I didn't look at the Safe Choice to know it is that high in sugar. No wonder.

It is impossible to find a descent vet around here. THe last one sent out a new just graduated student every time I called and no one was available during an emergency. I finally got a retired vet to come and put my horse down. It was horrific. Another vet told me one of my horses did not need pergolide even though her coat was 4 inches long. I don't know who else to contact to get blood work and trust to know how to interpret it.

I will post pictures of their feet and get the hay analyzed, first and second cutting. In fact, I will tell my husband to save some of each (he sells it) so I have it on hand in case what he stacked for me is higher in sugar. I got magnesium citrate yesterday and started them all on it.

I am on my way out for the feed now so I can give her that instead of the Nutrena. I will re-read the posts to see what I have missed.

Thanks very much,
Bev

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Lavinia" <dnlf@...> wrote:


nefferdun47
 

I just got the Low Starch feed by Triple Crown. The TB can hardly walk this morning. Now he is getting the Low Starch as well to be sure his diet is ok. I am soaking timothy hay cubes.

What should I do about the pergolide? Should I double the dose and give it to them once a day instead of twice? What about butte? Should they be getting that? I am calling the vet again to get some.

We are in the valley surrounded by forest fires. There has been thick smoke for nearly two months so it almost like winter. Maybe that is setting this off so badly. My pony has never been lame a day in her life. These guys were bucking and cantering two months ago. The other mare is the one who was gimpy all the time with arthritis and such.

Just another thing to add about the pony. Two years ago she began rubbing her butt on things until she literally was bloody. The first vet (new graduate) suggested lice which I knew was not right as they would all have lice. No pin worms either. This last vet said it was an allergy to fly bites (why just rub the butt then?). She also has an enlarged thyroid. One graduate said it was a goiter. The next said she was hyper thyroid. The last vet says it is a cyst and does not affect thyroid function.

It is frustrating because I have to be the vet myself. I also have to be my own doctor (lyme disease). Is there anything we can trust someone else to know what they are doing?

Thanks,
Bev

Western Montana,
Joined 8 years ago for IR horses and again September 2012


nefferdun47
 

Thanks for the great help. The vet came by and gave them a shot of butte yesterday. He said the Low Starch is a good feed so I am going to stick with that. Right now they are just getting the Triple Crown Low Starch and soaked timothy hay cubes. I am giving the about 3 grams magnesium citrate. They are getting butte twice a day until they improve. We put boots on both of them to help cushion their feet and prevent the sand from building up on the soles. My pony is doing much better today. She does not look sore.
The TB is still sore. The vet is keeping in touch with me which I appreciate. I will call him tomorrow if he is not a lot better.

I ordered a light that is supposed to help with SAD and the vet said I could use it on the horses too.

Bev

Montana
Joined last week for second time.

--- In EquineCushings@..., "nefferdun47" <b@...> wrote:


I just got the Low Starch feed by Triple Crown. The TB can hardly walk this morning. Now he is getting the Low Starch as well to be sure his diet is ok. I am soaking timothy hay cubes.

What should I do about the pergolide? Should I double the dose and give it to them once a day instead of twice? What about butte? Should they be getting that? I am calling the vet again to get some.

We are in the valley surrounded by forest fires. There has been thick smoke for nearly two months so it almost like winter. Maybe that is setting this off so badly. My pony has never been lame a day in her life. These guys were bucking and cantering two months ago. The other mare is the one who was gimpy all the time with arthritis and such.

Just another thing to add about the pony. Two years ago she began rubbing her butt on things until she literally was bloody. The first vet (new graduate) suggested lice which I knew was not right as they would all have lice. No pin worms either. This last vet said it was an allergy to fly bites (why just rub the butt then?). She also has an enlarged thyroid. One graduate said it was a goiter. The next said she was hyper thyroid. The last vet says it is a cyst and does not affect thyroid function.

It is frustrating because I have to be the vet myself. I also have to be my own doctor (lyme disease). Is there anything we can trust someone else to know what they are doing?

Thanks,
Bev

Western Montana,
Joined 8 years ago for IR horses and again September 2012