3 questions (hay analysis, ODTB, feeding pill) #nirwetchem


Carla
 

Hello,
Question 1: I am going to send a hay sample to Equi-Analytical; I ask for the 603 Trainer test, right?

Question 2: My pony gets, only the ODTB, so do I add the vitamin E, magnesium, salt, and flax in addition to the cubes...have been?

Question 3: She only just a 1/4 of a pill, I put it in her feed pan with her hay cubes, that have been mildly soaked, but I worry that she might push it out with her nose. Any suggestions, and how to "treat" it to her? I tried sticking it in a cube, but when she eats she pushes it with her nose first. Suggestions?

Thanks!
Carla and Cupcake
WI, Dec.12


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

--- In EquineCushings@yahoogroups.com, "Carla" wrote:
I am going to send a hay sample to Equi-Analytical; I ask for the 603 Trainer test, right?

Right.

My pony gets, only the ODTB, so do I add the vitamin E, magnesium, salt, and flax in addition to the cubes...have been?
No need to add mag. They also have a maintenance level of salt.

She only just a 1/4 of a pill, Any suggestions, and how to "treat" it to her?

Try a grape or prune.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Pat
 

Make a 'flax gummy bear' with a little water. I push the pill down into the center and hand feed like a treat.

Pat
NC, 2012

On Jan 24, 2013, at 12:19 PM, "Carla" <joseywhales34@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hello,
Question 1: I am going to send a hay sample to Equi-Analytical; I ask for the 603 Trainer test, right?

Question 2: My pony gets, only the ODTB, so do I add the vitamin E, magnesium, salt, and flax in addition to the cubes...have been?

Question 3: She only just a 1/4 of a pill, I put it in her feed pan with her hay cubes, that have been mildly soaked, but I worry that she might push it out with her nose. Any suggestions, and how to "treat" it to her? I tried sticking it in a cube, but when she eats she pushes it with her nose first. Suggestions?

Thanks!
Carla and Cupcake
WI, Dec.12


ignatowski90 <ignatowski90@...>
 

Hey Carla,

When I sent in my hay I called and they told me I could do 601 it tests everything 603 does just cheaper and you get results faster. so that's what I did.

Brittany and Mikey
2012 WI

--- In EquineCushings@yahoogroups.com, "Carla" wrote:

Hello,
Question 1: I am going to send a hay sample to Equi-Analytical; I ask for the 603 Trainer test, right?

Question 2: My pony gets, only the ODTB, so do I add the vitamin E, magnesium, salt, and flax in addition to the cubes...have been?

Question 3: She only just a 1/4 of a pill, I put it in her feed pan with her hay cubes, that have been mildly soaked, but I worry that she might push it out with her nose. Any suggestions, and how to "treat" it to her? I tried sticking it in a cube, but when she eats she pushes it with her nose first. Suggestions?

Thanks!
Carla and Cupcake
WI, Dec.12


Nancy C
 

601 is not as accurate as 603. Some have found it to be off by as much as 20 percent or more.

603/trainer is what is recommended by this group.

Lots more info about it in the message archives.


<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/171056>

<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/171061>

<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/157649>

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

NewEnglandEquineBalance@gmail.com


ignatowski90 <ignatowski90@...>
 

Well that is the test I used. I called and asked what test and the lady told me to do 601 I asked what the difference was and she said the way they process it, it gets done quicker but was the way to go. I guess next year when we get new hay I will use the 603.

Brittany and Mikey
2012 WI


Nancy C
 

Yes, we know. Not the first time.

Just want to put out the recommendations and why so that folks know.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

NewEnglandEquineBalance@gmail.com

--- In EquineCushings@yahoogroups.com, "ignatowski90" wrote:

Well that is the test I used.


ignatowski90 <ignatowski90@...>
 

Should I be retesting?

Brittany and Mikey
2012 WI

--- In EquineCushings@yahoogroups.com, "Nancy" wrote:

Yes, we know. Not the first time.

Just want to put out the recommendations and why so that folks know.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

NewEnglandEquineBalance@...






--- In EquineCushings@yahoogroups.com, "ignatowski90" wrote:

Well that is the test I used.


merlin5clougher <janieclougher@...>
 

Hi, Brittany -

Your hay showed 7.4% ESC and 2.3% starch, for a total of 9.7%. *If* the result is off by 10% or more, that could push the actual ESC+starch to 10.7% or more; alternatively, your actual hay could be 10% lower, so the actual is 8.7%.

Clear as mud?

I do realize that 10.7% compared to 9.7% ESC+starch doesn't look like it should make any difference, but I can attest to the fact that my crew has done okay on 9.5% hay, but got footsore on 11% hay.

You could retest *just* the ESC + starch, with wet chemistry. No need to re-test the whole shebang. That way is much cheaper, then you can be more confident in the result. Next year, you can use the Trainer 603.

Gosh, that was a very long-winded way of saying: yes, retest, but only the ESC and starch.


Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC09
ECIR mod/support

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/
-



Should I be retesting?

Brittany and Mikey
2012 WI
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory6/files/Mikey/


ignatowski90 <ignatowski90@...>
 

I will call and find out how to go about that. I just seen the prices went up. Now the trainer is $54.00.

Brittany and Mikey
2012 WI


ignatowski90 <ignatowski90@...>
 

I called and the lady told me there is no difference. I explained what everyone has told me and she said no. What test do I do to just test the esc and sugar. Is it 644? There is so many diffrent opnions.

Brittany and Mikey
2012 WI


Nancy C
 

Hi Brittany

Need to clarify we don't work from opinion here, but from the facts as we know them from science and going on 14 years of doing this work.

Go to the Equi-Analytical web site

<http://www.equi-analytical.com/>

Go to the "Services" window and download the sample information sheet

You want a CUSTOM PACKAGE (not 644). Go to page two. Check off

(154) Ethanol Soluble Carbohydrates (ESC) $10.00

and

(34) Starch $11.00

You will note on page one there is an additional fee of $7.00. Total will be $28.00

Good luck!

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

NewEnglandEquineBalance@gmail.com


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

--- In EquineCushings@yahoogroups.com, "ignatowski90" wrote:

I called and the lady told me there is no difference.
The AOAC, background here:

http://www.aoac.org/about/aoac.htm

sets the internationally accepted standards for **validated** testing methods for forage testing. NIR is not an accepted method for sugar or starch:

http://www.aoac.org/omarev1/948_02.pdf

http://www.aoac.org/omarev1/988_12.pdf

The AOAC does give guidance information for NIR for minerals, but it is recognized the error may be as high as 17%.

Also note that NFTA certification (Dairy One's certifying body) does not include sugar or starch, by any method:

http://www.foragetesting.org/files/2013SignupForms.pdf

=================

The bottom line take home message here is that when you need information on the validity of some statement, go to an independent source.

NIR determinations are estimates only, not measurements. They are not as accurate as direct measurement of sugar and starch. If the lady can prove differently, she needs to present the studies that show it or their data in detail. Your horse's welfare depends on it.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Sally Hugg
 

Just wanted to share our experience with NIR vs wet chemistry testing for ESC/starch last summer.

My hay grower travels to find low sugar grass hay every year. He sends the samples to Equi-analytical, and for the sake of economy and fast results he has always used #601 (equi-tech) which uses NIR for sugars and starch. He was very happy to find some nice looking hay that tested 1.1% ESC and .2% starch. I didn't think that looked right, so I asked him to have the lab retest the sample using wet chemistry. The results with wet chemistry came back as 6.6% ESC and .3% starch. That's over 5% difference in ESC. From now on, we will be using wet chemistry to make our final selections on which hay to buy.

Sally Hugg
N. California
2003

--- In EquineCushings@yahoogroups.com, "drkellon" wrote:

NIR determinations are estimates only, not measurements. They are not as accurate as direct measurement of sugar and starch. If the lady can prove differently, she needs to present the studies that show it or their data in detail. Your horse's welfare depends on it.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


mary.clements@rocketmail.com <mary.clements@...>
 

--- In EquineCushings@yahoogroups.com, "drkellon" wrote:


No need to add mag. They also have a maintenance level of salt.


Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001
Question do I need to add salt if they are only fed the ODTB cubes? I do Have white salt licks out for them.
Mary and Darlin' Dixie in Mo.
12/11


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

--- In EquineCushings@yahoogroups.com, "mary.clements@..." wrote:

Question do I need to add salt if they are only fed the ODTB cubes? I do Have white salt licks out for them.
I just got a message from Aurelio today that said they are having trouble integrating the salt into the balancing mineral mix so for the time being you need to add salt (but not iodine) separately.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Elva J Mico
 

On 1/26/2013 3:14 PM, drkellon wrote:
I just got a message from Aurelio today that said they are having
trouble integrating the salt into the balancing mineral mix so for
the time being you need to add salt (but not iodine) separately.
I thought with the ODTB cubes we had to add 2 tablespoons of iodized salt, and 2 tablespoons of ground flax? Is that incorrect?

Elva and Angel Satin
NM/2004

--
Elva
I was a dancer. One night at a gypsy camp, I drank a potion meant for
another and lost my heart to a horse named Satin.


Barbara Henry
 

I am having brain fog on how to download info on Monroe's case history. I have an analysis of the hay I am getting ready to buy. I have had my pasture tested plus the soil tested. I am lost where I attach them. I have been soaking his hay (12pd)I believe that is not enough for him. Can someone walk me through this? He has not dropped any weight but I did find out how much he needs to weight for being a light draft. Is there someone that can look at the hay report before I buy a year's worth of hay? 
Thank you very much for all the help!
Barb Henry


Candice Piraino
 

Hello Barbara!

I noticed this is your first post! Please make sure you also join the Case History group and upload your Case History when you can. You can also upload the hay analysis and we will be sure to help you with that as well. The instructions are found below. If you still are having issues, please let us know so we can assist you.

Welcome to the group! 

The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck. 

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose.

The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating". 

In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: IR is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine. If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for IR/PPID individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to IR/PPID equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you. 

 
--

~ Candice 

Primary Response Team

September 2018, Summerfield, FL

Shark's Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Candice%20and%20Shark

Shark's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=71507