Got some questions


KC
 

Hi, I'm new to this group. I have been on the barefoothorsecare group looking for some advice on my horse
and a few of them lead me here. My horse is barefoot and has been for 6 years. This year I started riding with
a riding club. The last couple of rides we did that involved gravel roads especially the last ride I did 2 weeks ago,
she became tender footed on the gravel roads only. I became concern because she never had any issues with being
able to walk on gravel. I talked to my farrier and he came out to look at her. We are still puzzled by it. She had a
little bit of separation around the hoof wall on one part of her front right foot but basically nothing else.
She did have a "little red rings" on her front feet which my farrier said was a sign of a sugar overload. We have had
a lot of rain from end of June into August. So its possible the extra sugar in the grass could be causing the
sensitivity. I don't believe she is IR but maybe in the realm of laminitis which she has never had before. She is basically
a healthy horse except for the sensitivity in her feet. I'm taking this as a warning sign that I need to change my ways
in feeding her to prevent it from turning into something worse.
 
So here is my questions, I understand that I need to get my hay and pasture analyzed to know what she is getting or not
so I can adjust her diet. When it comes to testing the hay, if the hay is from the same source, is there a difference between
1st cutting and 2nd cutting and do I need to have both tested? Also, do I need to have it tested every year if its from the same
source? As for the pasture, does it make a difference on what part of the year its tested and if it needs to be tested at different
times thru the year?
 
I wanted to get a better understanding on horse nutrition. I was told that Dr.Kellon has an online course on horse nutrition that I unfortunately can take at this time but I can do books. Does anyone have any recommendations on books that would be good to read? I was told Dr. Kellon had one but I was also looking at another one by Juliet Getty that I thought might work too. Any advice on good books?
 
Thanks in advance,
Kathy
 


gypsylassie
 

 



--- In EquineCushings@..., <equinecushings@...> wrote:

Hi, I'm new to this group. I have been on the barefoothorsecare group looking for some advice on my horse and a few of them lead me here. ...
>>
>
Hi Kathy, 
You'll be getting a good welcoming message soon, but in the meantime.. A great place to start reading is at the info site - ecirhorse.org.  Very informative.  The book by Dr Kellon, put out by Horses Journal is excellent.  I think those 2 sources along with the ecir files will do the best for you.  "Horse Journal Guide to Supplements and Nutraceuticals"
On the hay.  The mineral profile would probably be somewhat similar year to year, unless the farmer fertilizes, etc.  But the sugar and starch can vary a lot, so I'd at least check the s/s if not the whole profile.  If you stick with the same field year after year, I'd do the whole test once in awhile at least.  The sugar and starch in a pasture is ever changing from night to day, season to season, rainy to dry, sunny to cloudy.  You can do minerals, but can't really go by any s/s readings, unfortunately.
If your horse has any signs of IR, fatty deposits, filled in orbital areas over the eyes, swollen udder, etc, I'd pull her off the pasture.  What breed is she? Some are more inclined to IR - Morgans, Arabs, ponies, gaited horses.  Also if she's old enough to have Cushings, you could be seeing the signs of fall laminitis.  You'll get more info in your welcome message from one of the pros here, but you can get a start at ecirhorse.org.  Good luck with your girl, you're in the right place to help her.
Laura K. Chappie & Beau
N.IL.2011
(Hopefully this isn't a repeat of someone else's  answers, I don't think I'm getting all the posts yet.)


merlin5clougher <janieclougher@...>
 

Hi, Kathy, and welcome to the list!

You are so very right in wanting to be pro-active, and to find out what is causing your horse's foot tenderness.  Since it is now autumn, if your horse is older than 10 years, I would have the possibility of Cushings (PPID) in the back of my mind.  Any horse can be IR, but easy keeper types are more at risk - what breed is your horse?  Horses can be IR without "looking" like it - not all IR horses are fat (and not all fat horses are IR)

To be double sure we are answering your questions correctly, we need a little more information. Please take a few minutes and join EC History 7:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/echistory7/?yguid=494976346 


Follow the instructions to download a case history template; then fill it out, save it to your computer, and upload it into the EC History 7 files section (make a folder, first, with your name on it)

I do realize that you might now be reeling from information overload. Take heart - I promise it gets easier.  Because you have gotten a warning sign from your mare, I would start with the Temporary Emergency Diet asap. (more below)

The list philosophy is Diagnosis, Diet, Trim, and Exercise.

Diagnosis is  by blood tests: blood should be pulled from a non-fasting horse (or pony) in a quiet barn; blood spun, separated, and frozen or chilled asap, then sent to the lab at Cornell on ice. Ask for insulin, glucose, leptin and ACTH (ACTH is to check for Cushings or PPID - please ask for it if your horse is 9 years or older)

More information here:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/files/2%20%20Diagnosis%20Diet%20Trim/
 

and here:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/files/Blood%20Testing%20for%20IR%20%26%20Cushings%20Disease/
 


Diet is supremely important, in some ways more for what is not fed: no pasture, sweet feeds, oats/grain, carrots, apples, iron-containing supplements.  Diet consists of grass hay or haylage, with ESC (soluble sugars) and starch of less than 10%, plus minerals balanced to the forage, plus vitamin E, salt, and flaxseed or flaxseed oil.  One can use a carrier of beet pulp (rinsed, soaked, and rinsed) as a safe feed to get the supplements in.   The Temporary Emergency Diet uses hay soaked for 1 hour in cold water, or 30 minutes in hot water, with the water drained where the horses can't get at it; plus vitamin E, salt, and ground flaxseed in a safe carrier such as beet pulp (rinsed, soaked, rinsed).  More info on Temporary Emergency Diet here:

 http://tinyurl.com/yckzmlz 

Trim:  This is a trim physiologically balanced to the internal shape of the coffin bone, with short toe and low heels.  Trim is often a neglected or mis-understood piece of the puzzle.

Exercise: This is the best EMS buster there is, but only if the pony/horse is comfortable and non-laminitic.  A horse that has suffered laminitis needs a good 6 to 9 months of correct hoof re-growth before any kind of serious exercise can begin.



Give us a little more information; ask any and all questions.  And, again, welcome!


Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC09
ECIR  mod/support

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/
 







.... She had a little bit of separation around the hoof wall on one part of her front right foot but basically nothing else.
> She did have a "little red rings" on her front feet which my farrier said was a sign of a sugar overload. ........... She is basically
> a healthy horse except for the sensitivity in her feet. ......


KC
 

Sorry, I'm still trying to figure out this discussion group and where to find things. Information overload
is understatement. My mare is a 11 year old Appaloosa. So, I guess she is old enough to be at risk.
If I did it right, I did setup a case history and filled out the form the best I can and posted here. Its
title Kathy in Ohio in the files section of echistory7 if the link below doesn't work.
 
 
I have to admit I feel like I'm being paranoid after reading some of posts of other peoples issues with their horses.
My farrier did come out the other day and to trim her feet. He looked at them thoroughly and basically couldn't find the cause of her sensitivity. No signs of laminitis or anything. He believes its could be that she just isn't conditioned
enough for gravel roads which it might be or not. I'm planning to buy boots for her front feet. But to be cautious, I'm going to have my hay analyzed and switch to a different horse feed that has a lower NSC. Bad thing I can get what I really would like to try which is from Triple Crown. No dealers in my area even though their website says something different. Most of the dealers where I live at sell predominately Purina but Nutrena is available too. I had her on Nutrena SafeChoice at one time but had to switch to Purina Strategy Healthy Edge. For right now, I thinking about going with Purina Enrich 32 ( I believe its called Enrich Plus now) and with her diet predominately hay/grass until I can get a better understanding of things and improve things even more. I hope at least I'm going in the right direction. From what I found, I think I am or at least its a small step.
 
Thanks
Kathy in Ohio
 


Mandy Woods
 

Hi Kathy,
Jaini gave you the scoop when you joined last week. We understand that the information here is overwhelming in the beginning but it will click for you!   So take a deep breath and we’ll help you through it.
 
First the DDT/E’s.  Diagnosis is by bloodwork.  I doubt Priceless is PPID aka Cushings at age 11.  I would say from the DIET you’ve been feeding her she’s IR.     I would start the Temporary Emergency DIET today.  You could see positive results in a matter of days by removing a lot of sugar/starch from her diet.  Soak her hay for one hour in cold water.  This reduces sugar up to 30%.  It wont budge the starch nor the minerals. Feed her 1.5% to 2% her body weight a day in dry hay then soak it.   She’s getting a lot of feed with pasture and 20# s of hay.  Stop all grains.  Purina is full of sugar.  Nutrena is full of sugar.   A safe carrier for her minerals is rinsed/soaked/rinsed plain shredded  beet pulp.  Start with a cup or two – r/s/r it – this really cleans it up and makes it low s/s – add the ER minerals of Vitamin E,  Loose iodized table salt, magnesium and freshly ground flax seed.  You can get all of these minerals at Walmart.  And a fish scale in the sports dept so you can weigh her hay!    The exact recipe is in the Start Here file.  She should get no grains,  grass,  treats.    This is a sage DIET for anyhorse.  When you get your minerals balanced it is a perfect DIET~
 
TRIM is a balanced foot with heels lowered and toes backed from the top.  Its possible the farrier changes some dynamics in her foot on the previous trim and she’s developed an abscess.   Please post photos of her feet and her xrays.   Here’s a link to a great site for taking good foot pictures.  A body shot would be great too. 
 
 
 
EXERCISE is a great way to help her.  Hand walking is good.  No tight turns. NO lunging.   IF she moves at liberty in her paddock without doing a rodeo then she’s self exercising!  You don’t want her ripping around. 
 
Purina Strategy is NOT good.  Its 28% sugar/starch.  The aim of this group is to have sugar/starch at 10% or less with the minerals balanced to your hay analysis.  This means until you have your hay analysed, soak it!  Drain the water off where she cant get to it.   You can leave the salt block in her stall if its white.  NO red blocks because they contain iron and molasses.   Read the File “Analysis of Various Feeds”. 
 
You may need to take a drive to a soutern States store.   IF you can find Triple Crown you can find Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance cubes.  These are SAFE!  and can be used as a complete meal or even a carrier.  They are little cubes with minerals already balanced.
 
Yes,  Priceless could be at risk for Cushings but you havent mentioned exrtra long curly hair,  a dropped topline,  a pot belly,  powdery skin,  goopy eyes.    If she was in my barn I would start out with soaking her hay.   This is where you should send your hay sample.
 
www.equi-analytical.com  Get the Trainer # 603 for $54.
 
Kathy,   keep reading and ask questions as they pop up.   We’ll be here to help you.
 
Mandy in VA
EC PRimaryREsponse
OCT 2003


KC
 

Hi, Sorry it took me so long to get back. I got some pictures of my mare that was requested.
You will find them at the link below. Please go by what the picture is named vs what you see in
the picture as left/right. I used my left/right and not her left/right. Ooops.
 
 
She is still tender in the feet maybe a little worse so I called my vet. Unfortunately, he can't come out
because he got injured himself. But his wife who is also vet is trying to fill in where she can until
he gets up and going again, hopefully within a week. When I told her about my mare, she believes
its mostly like a bruise which will take a while to heal. She also said that they have seen a lot of
unusual foot problems this year due to all the rain and it not drying out like it usually does around July.
I'm going to be get some bute today to help. If still having troubles, they will come out by end of the week. 
Considering this has been an issue for a little while, my guess they will be out.
No matter what it is, I'm still going to work to improve her diet but I got do it carefully. My mare is very food
oriented so if I mess with it too much at once. I get to see her Appy side of her personality really well which
isn't safe thing for her or my barn. I did send out my hay and pasture for testing and should have it back
sometime next week. I will post it when I get it.
 
Thanks
Kathy in Ohio
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Maggie
 

>Hi, Sorry it took me so long to get back. I got some pictures of my mare that was requested.

Hi Kathy,

I took a look at your pictures and read your case history.  Priceless is beautiful!  She does not have what we people are prone to think of as an IR body, with a cresty neck and fatty deposits.  But not all IR horses are fat.  Some can be thin as they can't utilize their calories because of their insulin resistance.

 

One thing that you said really jumps right out at me.  You said "My mare is very food oriented so if I mess with it too much at once. I get to see her Appy side of her personality really well which isn't safe thing for her or my barn."  I am not saying that Priceless is IR, but this behavior is typical of an IR horse.  It can be due to Leptin resistance, which goes along with insulin resistance.  Leptin is the "stop eating" hormone, and because IR horses are also Leptin resistant, they don't really have that "stop eating" button.  It's great that you've sent your hay and pasture off for analysis.  In the meantime, I would try to remove as much sugar from her diet as possible and see if you don't see an improvement.  Start soaking her hay.  You want to soak it for 30 minutes in hot water or an hour in cold water to remove ~30% of the sugar content.  Make sure you dump the water where Priceless cannot get to it as it's full of sugar! Is this a pain to do?  Yes!  But some of us soak year round!  Just try it for a few days.  Pull her off all pasture for now.  Stop giving her any treats!  They are so full of sugar and starch!  Do yourself a favor and go and get some small mesh hay nets to use for soaking and feeding her hay.  If you call around, you may find them locally.  If not, you can order them online at several places.  Here's one: http://www.chicksaddlery.com/page/CDS/PROD/2400/SF1802    The small mesh hay nets may allow you to keep food in front of her 24/7, especially if you're soaking the hay.  Stop all of grain you are feeding that is listed in your CH.  Go to Walmart and get the emergency minerals (the Iodized salt, Vitamin E, flax and magnesium oxide) in the amounts listed here:  http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview/ddt-diet  It's not a big outlay of $$ to try all f this.  Try it for 3 days and see if you don't see an improvement.  You will be on your way to the healthiest way to feed Priceless--a grass hay diet with minerals balanced to your hay analysis. 

 

I know it's hard to see Priceless in pain, but if you can, hold off on the bute.  It interferes with the healing process.  When your vet is able to get out there, have him/her draw labs. Do not fast Priceless prior to drawing her labs.  You need at least an insulin, glucose and leptin levels.  Although, as Mandy said, at age 11, Priceless is probably not PPID, but it wouldn't hurt to have an ACTH as well.  At the very least, you will have a baseline level on her.  Since it's fall and we are in the seasonal rise, if she is early PPID, she could be having an exaggerated rise in her ACTH and that could be making her footsore. It's worth finding out instead of wishing you had done it if your other IR labs come back normal.  Send the labs to Cornell. They are the only ones that do a leptin level.  The blood requires special handling.  All the information you need is here:  http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview/ddt-diagnosis  Print it off for your vet.  Your vet needs to have an account at Cornell, but they may already have one.  Also, they can get discount shipping labels from Cornell.  It s huge savings since the ACTH has to be shipped with cold packs overnight.  Look here:  https://ahdc.vet.cornell.edu/docs/Shipping_Discount_Program_Information.pdf  I will just reiterate what's been said before.  We know all of this is overwhelming at first, but trust me, it does get easier and easier and then eventually, it's a way of life!  And then, you will be teaching other people what you know to be the best and healthiest way of managing your horses.

 

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
EC Primary Response
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/


KC
 

Its been a busy couple of weeks for me since my last post and haven't been able to post any updates/questions until now.
 
> I know it's hard to see Priceless in pain, but if you can, hold off on the bute.  It interferes with the healing process.>
Unfortunately, I didn't see your post until after I gave Priceless 2 days worth of bute but I ended up taking her off of it  anyway because my vet was able to come out to see her and I didn't want the bute to mask anything. Bad thing, my vet couldn't find what's wrong except she could tell that there was something going on with her foot. Her digital pulse was indicated something was wrong. The bute must have done something because the swelling I was seeing and the ouchness went away. She didn't recommend putting her back on bute which is a good thing. I did talk to her about X-rays and bloodwork. She wanted to hold off at this time since the bute shows signs of helping. She believes its more of injury type of thing than metabolism issues since she doesn't display any other than signs of IR, etc. Basically, its still a mystery of what's going on with her foot which is frustrating. She told me to continue riding her and see what develops. So, I have gone trail riding with her twice since the vet visit. So far for the most part she has been solid. She still telling me she doesn't like walking on gravel roads but its not the same as before. Its kinda hard to described but its different. I'm also still waiting on my hay results. I think I messed up by going thru my feed store for the testing instead of sending it to equi-analytical but I started that path before I knew about equi-analytical. Luckily, I still have enough of my sample left to send it for testing if this doesn't work out.
 
She has always been like that since I've owned her. I did talked to a friend of mine that knew her way before I owned her and got a better insight to what I'm seeing with her. She remembers Priceless always being like that too. She believes part of problem is how she was raised. So, it may be more determined to get her food than being "very food oriented". She had to compete a lot for her food when she was young (to put it mildly) which could have influenced her focus on food. My words might not be the right way of describing what she does.
 
All in all, I'm still just as confused as before and maybe more on what I should do or not do. I feel like I need to continue to pursue on improving her diet but I still feel like I'm being paranoid and overreacting to the situation. My main concern is not just her feet but the fact she is getting older and I want to make sure she stays healthy as she ages. We got a lot more trail riding to do together.
 
Saying that, I do have a lot more questions around her diet due to my confusion. Is it safe to manage her diet up to a point like she was IR even though she might not be? From what I read so far, it didn't appear that it would be but I got a lot doubts if I'm doing the right thing or not. What I'm think about doing is since I was able to find the Triple Crown Safe Starch Forage is to switch to it and add flaxseed meal and salt and maybe add some alfalfa pellets/cubes to her mostly hay/grass diet then fill in with additional minerals/vitamins if needed based on the hay test results. Am I going in the right direction with this plan? What amounts would be ideal to work toward since I need to do this gradually for her to accept the change? Would it be ok to go ahead & start her on TC, flaxseed, salt and alfalfa even though I haven't got my hay results? Also, she is still on pasture at this time. I know it was suggestion to take her off it except I can't keep her from grass no matter where she is kept except for stalling her which I won't do. To me, that really isn't good for her right now. What I have been doing at night when she is kept in my barn lot (this lot has grass in it too just not huge amount) is spreading her hay out into small piles thru the lot to keep her moving instead of putting out in 1 place like I usually do. I'm trying to follow the paradise paddock theory to a point that I read about and thought it would be better than nothing.
 
I hope this sounds like a better approach than before.
 
Kathy in Ohio
 


Lisa S
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., Kathy Cline <kmc_26101@...> wrote:


 
All in all, I'm still just as confused as before and maybe more on what I should do or not do.
Kathy,

I may have missed the info, but has she been tested yet?

For me, in your situation, that would be my next step.

It took a whole lot of convincing for me to send my first set of labs off to Cornell, but now I have missionary zeal on the topic!

Testing in accordance with the list's recommendations (and interpreting the test results in light of my gelding's clinical signs, and the proxies) pretty much saved his life.

Hope you get Priceless all squared away--I love that name!

Lisa in TX
Pookey Bear
June 2010


briars@...
 

 Well said,Lisa!

I remember your struggle. Same one that a lot of us have  gone through.

And ,ahem, survived.



Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

 

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

 

 





>It took a whole lot of convincing for me to send my first set of labs off to Cornell, but now I have >missionary zeal on the topic!

>Testing in accordance with the list's recommendations (and interpreting the test results in light of >my gelding's clinical signs, and the proxies) pretty much saved his life.


>Lisa in TX


KC
 

No, she hasn't. I can't convince my vet that it warrants to have her tested.
I believe the main problem with her foot issue is its too mild and shows improvement that
she doesn't believe it worth pursuing at this time. She is thinking its just an injury where
I don't. Frustrating because its makes me feel like I'm a paranoid horse owner.
 
The only thing I have real control over is her diet at this point but I'm really cautious of
trying to change something without knowing what I'm doing. Hence, why you are seeing all
the questions and hesitation of changing stuff. I'm completely out of comfort zone with
this. I'm actually thinking about seeking the help of an equine nutritionist that lives within a couple of hours
of me. This might be the best route for me until I can get a handle on things and make actual improvements
in her diet without worrying that I'm going screwing something up and end up doing her more harm than good.
I just don't know what else to do. I just at a lost right now on what to do when I can't convince anybody
that there could be something more to this issue.
 
Kathy in Ohio


Ange Moore
 

Hi Kathy - I had to suggest strongly to my vet that Millie should be tested for Cushing's (not yet done IR etc. as still discussing the starve or not options) following a bout of Laminits that I caught really early - she's a little older than your horse but still only 13, and had no other 'obvious' symptoms, so the vet's view was 'this horse doesn't have Cushing's' - he was very taken aback when she tested very positive! Luckily she responded well to treatment and management, and x-rays indicated no obviuos changes in her feet (she's also barefoot and has been for about 8 months) - what I've found since the Laminitis and management changes is that she is happier on rough surfaces now than she was before this all happened! It's your horse and really the vet should go with your wishes, but check that they know 'how' to take and handle the bloods properly too - you have to wonder whether their reluctance is down to lack of knowledge! Hope my experience helps you. Ange & Millie Moore UK, joined Sept 2013 (Posting from tablet so copying in case history link is tricky sorry)


Pamela Bramell
 

Kathy, if your gut is telling you that something is wrong with your horse, then you should trust that.  I had to learn from this list how to stand up for what I thought my pony needed.  I have several vets now because of it.  I have one for Frosty's eyes, one for regular care and Frosty's cushings and another one for x-rays.  We have such a culture of "believe the vet or farrier" that we can really get our horses into trouble.  If you don't believe me you can look through the messages back to December of 2010 and see my frantic posts, pictures of unbelievable trim and thrush for my Buttercup.  I encourage you to follow your instincts.  They are never wrong.  Maybe your gal isn't cushings or IR, but at least you can rule that out by way of testing.  Can you ask your vet to humor you and let you spend your money on the testing?  Are you able to find a vet that will do as you ask?  At the end of the day, you are your horses advocate, not the vet.  I can't state enough how important it is for you to follow up on your instincts.  The information on this list is good and cutting edge.  The learning curve is really tough.  But you will get some guidance as to which way to go.  The first thing is testing, so that should be your main focus right now.  Putting your gal on the emergency diet certainly won't hurt for the short term until you can get things sorted out.  So prioritize getting a diagnosis first, however that has to get done for the health and longevity of your horse.  Hope that helps clear the fog a bit.  I know there's the potential for heavy fog when you get on this list and you don't have a vet/farrier on board.

Pam in Va

Buttercup the bounce back Queen/Story who decided to eat all of the leaves off my baby curly willow/Frosty who never does anything bad (except bust up some fences) tee hee 


Thanks for the trimming help, although I couldn't respond to the original post.  I will call it progress


---In equinecushings@..., <angemoore100@...> wrote: so the vet's view was 'this horse doesn't have Cushing's' - he was very taken aback when she tested very positive! Luckily she responded well to treatment and management,


Lisa S
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., <angemoore100@...> wrote:

you have to wonder whether their reluctance is down to lack of knowledge!

This was the case with my vet, though his posturing might have suggested otherwise.

I can say this, because he is my husband! LOL

I used the 'humor me' approach and told him we needed to rule out metabolic disorders before we wasted a whole lot of time and money doing things or giving meds that might not be necessary (though I now manage all of my horses as 'potentially IR'!)

And though he finds the protocol a bit of a bother, he admits it is worth the trouble to do it right and to use a lab with reliable protocols and normals.

Lisa in TX
Pookey Bear, IR
June 2010


KC
 

Thanks for all the encouragement. My vet is good except he just has strong viewpoints
so trying to get him to change his mind on things can be a little difficult. Its especially difficult
when I don't have any evidence to prove myself except for my gut instincts. I did try another
vet to see if I could get them to look at her and do the bloodwork/xrays. The only thing I got
was a run around and a line of BS. So, basically I'm back to square one. I agree with everyone
that said she is my horse and its my money to spent and they should do what I request but
how do you convince them that. At this point, I don't have answer.
 
If I ever get my hay test results back, I plan to proceed with improving her diet and treat her like she
is IR for now. From what I read & understand from several posts, it doesn't appear that it will hurt
her any. Also, it seems to me a lot of problems (not all) can be helped through good nutrition.
I don't know what else I can do at this point. I feel like my horse is got to be dying or severely lame
to get any vet to take me seriously.
 
Kathy in Ohio


Lisa S
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., Kathy Cline <kmc_26101@...> wrote:

I agree with everyone that said she is my horse and its my money to spent and they >should do what I request but how do you convince them that. At this point, I don't have >answer.
Kathy,

Just your use of the word 'request' suggests that you are a nice person, and probably not too confrontational. It can be so hard to advocate for our horses when we feel that we have to be too assertive!

I tend to approach things somewhat obliquely, and I will throw out a couple of approaches I have recommended before that some of my new IR/PPID owner friends have told me worked for them.

I should work on a "Top Ten" list of these, as common as this problem is!

1) My favorite approach is asking the vet 'Could you just humor me. I really want to do this--I'm not even sure why. It just FEELS like the right thing to do!'
2) Tell the vet someone suggested you haul your horse cross-country to a major vet center with a fabulous endocrinologist on staff, and you are pretty sure they will want to see these labs before you haul;
3) Ask if the vet currently uses Cornell. If not, ask him if you would handle all the paperwork and hassle of packing and shipping the sample, would he let you help him get an account set up? Perhaps mention the tests + shipping will run under $100 but you will happily pay him $150 extra for his trouble (or another amount you deem fair);
4) Mention that you are a member of a horsemen's group with thousands of members who share their numbers in an effort to fight endocrine-related laminitis and to help metabolically challenged horses.

Wish there was a single effective approach--best of luck!

Lisa in TX
Pookey Bear, IR
June 2010


Maggie
 

> Is it safe to manage her diet up to a point like she was IR even though she might not be? .....

Hi Kathy,

The answer to this question is yes, it won't hurt her to manage her as though she is IR.  The emergency diet is a safe, temporary diet until you get your hay analysis back.  Then the best diet for any horse is a forage based diet with balanced minerals.  Once you get your hay analysis, post it for us to see and then you can get one of the hay balancing folks to help you balance the minerals.  The Triple Crown Safe Starch forage is a little higher in fat than we like to see. Also, some horses, IR or not, have trouble with alfalfa, so you need to be cautious with using those alfalfa pellets.  Were you going to use them as a carrier for your vits/minerals?  A lot of us whose equines won't eat beet pulp, use a product called Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance cubes (ODTB's).  They are low sugar starch (tested under 10% sugar+starch) Timothy hay cubes with the minerals balanced to Dr. Kellon's recommendations.  If you add warm water to them, they crumble and then the supplements stick to the wet chopped hay. If you decide to use them, you may have to play around with how much water to add.  Some horses like them wetter and some dryer.  Just make sure you don't pour off any water as you will lose the balancing minerals.  If you have access to Triple Crown products, you should be able to get the ODTB's too.  Also, in looking again at your CH, I see that you give "apples, sticky buns, Manna Pro apple treats."  I see that you give them randomly and not every day, but you should stop all that for now. 

 

Letting her on pasture is sort of like playing with fire until you get her tested. Agree with not stalling her, but is there any way you can make her a dry lot?   I have to agree with the others about going with your gut instinct on getting her tested. So frustrating to not be able to get what you want! Lisa had some great ideas!  Even if you are "being paranoid and overreacting to the situation,"   you aren't doing any harm by following the recommendations here, and you could be avoiding problems.  Better safe than sorry!

 

So, your plan to add ground flax seed and salt and then add vitamins/minerals to balance your hay is great!  And it's OK to start adding those ingredients before you get your hay analysis back.  Have you started adding Vit E yet?  That's another ingredient you should add now.  Just make sure that you buy Vit E with oil in it or you'll need to open the capsules and add a little oil so that it's properly absorbed--kind of a pain! Here's a link to the temporary emergency diet that shows what minerals you want to add until you get your hay analysis back:  http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview/ddt-diet  Just scroll down until you see the Iodized salt, magnesium, Vitamin E and flax and use that as a guide for how much based on Priceless's weight.  Spreading the hay out to increase movement is great too!  Yes, you are going in the right direction!  You're doing great! Deep breaths!  And hang in there!  It does all get easier!

 

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
EC Primary Response
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/


KC
 

<The answer to this question is yes, it won't hurt her to manage her as though she is IR.  The emergency diet is a safe, temporary diet until you get your hay analysis back> I’m glad to hear that. I’m working toward getting her on the emergency diet but its slowing going until I can get all the components and to get her switch over without fussing.
My plan was to use the Triple Crown Safe Starch as the carrier for the vits/minerals. I need to use something easy since I’m not the only one who feeds her. Beet pulp won’t fit that requirement due to the soaking. I was lucky to even find a feed store that sells TC and they keep the Safe Starch forage in stock. I had asked them about the Balance cubes and they didn’t know anything about them but didn’t mean they couldn’t get them though. I just thought this one would be easier to deal with and thought it would be ok since I was just going to use it as a carrier. I thought the alfalfa pellets would be good for her to balance the grass hay out with. I read in a book of mine that the grass hay can lack of few things where the alfalfa pellets could fill the void and balance some of that out as long as it stay within a certain ratio between grass hay & alfalfa. I know you shouldn’t feed alfalfa only due to the calcium, etc. Plus, I used to use them as treats a few years ago until someone talked me out of using them. As far as I know she never had a problem with them. I remember she really liked them too.
I already have done this which wasn’t hard to do. I’m just not a heavy treat giver like I use to be. I have been known to go a few weeks without give her any treats. So its not hard for me to give that up.

No, not really or at least not without using a lot of grass killer which then has its own issues. I just reseed ¾ of my barn lot this past spring long before this whole issue came about. This section is still blocked off for right now. My plan is to keep them off of it until almost December when I take them off pasture for the winter. Then I  will open it up so she and another horse (a boarder) can nibble at it thru the winter even though it will be almost gone within a month after I open it up. The section that is being used now is about half dirt and half grass which the grass is eaten down pretty bad since its been used all summer to keep them off the pasture at night but its not big enough for her and the other horse to stay on it 24/7 for long periods of time. Whatever I do with her, I have to do with my boarding horse too. I basically have 2 areas, my pasture which is about 3 or 4 acres and my barn lot which is about ½ acre to ¾ acre, I think. I’m not very good with judging land sizes. My pasture isn’t wide open and full of grass. It has a lot of trees so about a good ¼ or a little more doesn’t have any grass or its very thin. I’m lucky to have what I do. That’s why I don’t keep them on pasture 24/7. The pasture won’t support it even with just 2 horses on it. Right now, my pasture is eaten down pretty good and its thinning out due to cold weather coming. I know I’m taking a calculated risk by leaving her on pasture thru the day but there are some other factors that is preventing me from doing that. Once those get resolved, I plan to take her off pasture completely which should be soon.
I just got the flax seed today from the feed store. I forgot about the Vit E so I did get it after reading your post but I don’t understand the oil part. I got the Vit E liquid gelcaps from the pharmacy. Do I need to add oil to them? If I do, what type of oil and how much? I also got the idoized salt and will start giving it to her this evening. The only thing I’m not sure about is the magnesium that’s listed on the emergency diet and what I should be looking be for with it.
I do believe what changes that I have made so far has helped her but still got a ways to go.
You are right about being confrontational. It’s one of my weaknesses which I have been trying to work on. It’s especially difficult for me when I have no confidence in what I’m doing which is where I’m at with this issue. Once I get a better understanding and more confident about what I’m doing, watch out but its does take me a little while to get there. Believe it or not, Priceless has helped me a lot in that department. She has taught quite a few things that I didn’t think I could do.
 Kathy in Ohio


Leigh Jacobs
 

Hi Kathy,
"It took a whole lot of convincing for me to send my first set of labs off to Cornell, but now I have missionary zeal on the topic!"  As Lisa stated, sometimes it is the owner, sometimes it is the vet who needs to be convinced.  I am lucky in that we were both in agreement at the same time when it came to Ace.  A few of my friends, with vets less open to testing in the fall, simply made a statement saying that they were willing to pay for their curiosity on their horses blood work.  Once they had it in hand, and the normals were well over the fall normal (50) by Cornell standards, they were able to convince their vets to put their horses on "trial" courses of pergolide.  Problem that we are now seeing in the area, is that vets are starting to refuse to write scripts for compounded pergolide.  Some saying that they went to some seminar in August (I have yet to find that seminar posted anywhere online) and came back either in fear of legal issues or actually convinced that Prascend was worth the extra money that owners would have to pay.
I suggest that you be up front with your vet.  Say that you are willing to pay for the test(s) and ask her to indulge your curiosity.  It will also reduce her angst about a "normal" report if it comes back as normal under Cornell standards.  Then you have a baseline to compare to in the future.  Your money will not be wasted. You will either know that she is/or at risk or/is not a Cushing's horse/ insulin resistant / EMS.
Good Luck,
Leigh, Ace and Shadow
Tucson, AZ
2011





On Sunday, October 13, 2013 5:10 PM, lonestarquarterh wrote:
 


--- In EquineCushings@..., Kathy Cline wrote:
>
>
>  
> All in all, I'm still just as confused as before and maybe more on what I should do or not do.
>
Kathy,

I may have missed the info, but has she been tested yet?

For me, in your situation, that would be my next step.

It took a whole lot of convincing for me to send my first set of labs off to Cornell, but now I have missionary zeal on the topic!

Testing in accordance with the list's recommendations (and interpreting the test results in light of my gelding's clinical signs, and the proxies) pretty much saved his life.

Hope you get Priceless all squared away--I love that name!

Lisa in TX
Pookey Bear
June 2010




Lisa S
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., Leigh Jacobs <equinesrfun@...> wrote:

Then you have a baseline to compare to in the future.

Leigh,

Great idea--I am going to add this to my developing 'Top Ten Ways to Convince Vet to Test for PPID/IR' list--to obtain a baseline!

Lisa in TX
Pookey Bear
June 2010