Planning for the end with Chuckles
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debra.clare
Hi, I posted on this forum a few days ago about my horse Chuckles. His whole story is in a diary on The Laminitis Site and my life is very complicated these days so getting around to filling out his history and posting pics here is just proving too be difficult. Several folks have been very kind and their responses were very supportive but I just keep hitting brick walls no matter which way I turn. Nothing and I mean nothing has been easy for me and my horse from day one of his diagnosis. We have hit road block after road block and I have fought nobly but I think it might be time to raise the white flag.
Anyway, he continues to have good days and bad days. Yesterday was okay, he was lying down in his field for the first time in 5 months. Typically he would not do this outside of his shed. But, today he's back to being sore again not that he has walked normally in a long time but he seems to be brewing more abscessed or at least that's what I think it is. Yes stuff keeps draining out of his feet but his stance today sure looked laminitic to me. This is after his third trim. I digress, but that's very easy to do these days. My reason for this post is very specific. I am reaching the end of my rope financially and emotionally. I've been at this for 6 months now and it is taking its toll on me, my family and everyone involved. I am hoping someone can give be an idea of how to go about planning for euthanasia and maybe help me with contacts for someone in my area that disposes of large animal carcasses. I don't have a clue about how to do this. When I google it I get no where with animal carcass removal. I know I could ask my vet but our relationship is not so great at the moment because I wont give him the meds they keep pushing on me. I have not made a definite decision to do anything yet but I am pretty sure I need to start lining things up just in case. I cannot afford anymore tests or xrays at this time and if he does develop a secondary issue of any kind I am going to go ahead and let him go. I have no choice. This just turned out to be way more than I could handle financially and emotionally. I apologize for sounding so grim and please understand I am sobbing while typing this but I just can't do this much longer. I am trying to give him until spring. I will do what I can to modify his diet but I will not starve him any longer. I have removed the vegetable oil and I am trying to titrate him of the bute, his current does is only .5 grams a day. I am also planning to put him on Omega Horse Shine, Kim recommended this. It wont be possible for several days because I just don't have the money. If he doesn't turn a corner and soon, I will have no choice but to let him go. I simply will not be able to financially fight for him anymore. This is going to break my heart in to a thousand pieces and honestly I don't think I will ever ride again, not that I have ridden in several months anyway. I just can't seem to do it anymore. But never the less, this is a choice that I may need to make and very soon so I just want to be as ready as I can be. I have meds to get me through though I am certain I will never, ever get past this. I would be so grateful for any advice, support, info offered. Thank You. Debra and Chuckles Durham NC |
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gypsylassie
....my horse Chuckles... His whole story is in a diary on The Laminitis Site and my life is very complicated these days so getting around to filling out his history and posting pics here is proving to be difficult.... We have hit road block after road block and I have fought nobly but I think it might be time to raise the white flag. ......Anyway, he continues to have good days and bad days...... . I am reaching the end of my rope financially and emotionally. I've been at this for 6 months now and it is taking its toll on me, my family and everyone involved. I am hoping someone can give be an idea of how to go about planning for euthanasia and maybe help me with contacts for someone in my area that disposes of large animal carcasses. I don't have a clue about how to do this. Hi Debra, So sorry to hear what you're going thru. On the practical side, is there another vet in your area you could call and ask about euthanasia without going into your personal circumstances? or perhaps you or a friend know a farmer you could ask. Do you live "out in the country" on enough property where you could bury him? Around here excavators will come to bury horses. If you want to keep trying for a bit, you can still post questions even if you haven't completed a history yet. We all do what we can at any given moment. You don't have to "starve" Chuckles. I'm sorry if I repeat something, I haven't been back thru all the posts, but if you have grass hay you can feed 2% of his ideal body weight. I understand how overwhelming this is so I hope I don't sound like I'm "piling" more on. You can also feed very safe calories with rinsed, soaked and re-rinsed non-molasses beet pulp. It's not as difficult as it sounds and can be done with a tupperware tub and a large strainer in the kitchen. Add the loose iodized table salt. And Vit E and the ground flax when you can. Sometimes it does take a long time to turn the corner, and it's heartbreaking to see them in pain, but then, little by little they get better and enough time goes by to grow out new hooves and clear out the abscesses. Also remember you can go to the information site ecirhorse.com for easy, concise explanations of IR, PPID and diet. I've referred back to that a lot for details. Many of us have shed a lot of tears on this journey. Sometimes we have to take some deep breaths, and give ourselves time to process everything. Know that there are people here who have walked this path and understand how you feel, you're not alone. The first 8 mnths or so of Chappie's founder and recovery are kind of a blur for me, I was in such a dark place of blaming myself and sorrow. But he is doing well now and I've learned so much from this group to keep him and Beau on track with their IR. Whatever you decide going forward, there is support and understanding here. Much can also be learned from our horses. Do they still have that spark in their eyes? Are they still fighting to get thru this? They can guide us. Laura K. Chappie & Beau N.IL.2011 |
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Pamela Bramell
Hi Debra! I want to give you a big hug from a little north, in Virginia. Do you think having someone come down and work with you for a day would help? I would be willing to do that for you and Chuckles. I can get right back to where you are mentally because Buttercup was laid out on the ground for over 12 hours a day for 1.5 years (18 months of watching that). Yep, spent over $1000 on some meds that were never going to work. Gave her the wrong food, let her graze for an hour a day. Using a farrier that had no idea what he was doing. Butters had hooves 3 times too big and horrible thrush in all 4 hooves. All under the direction of my vet. Sheesh. I know where you are and it's not a fun place to be. There are ways to get Chuckles fed that are actually pretty inexpensive. Can you get soy hull pellets? They are about $10 a 50 lb bag where I am from a local feed co-op. The R/S/R beet pulp is very reasonable. If you have a bit of time (I had time, not a lot of money) you can soak a big old batch and freeze it. You don't have to buy the horseshine. I buy a bag of whole flax seed from the feed store. It cost $35 and lasts for several months. For one horse I think you can get at least 6 months out of the bag. I have a coffee grinder and grind a batch up and then use what I need and put the rest in the fridge. You can also use a blender. I was at the point where I was going to put Butters down too. Called the vet out for her opinion because I couldn't get anywhere. Butters wasn't ready to go, but I couldn't figure out what to do after a year and a half of this stuff. Vet said to shoe her one more time (yes, we were banging metal shoes on those sore hooves). Then the vet told me about cushings, I found this site and found out Buttercup is IR. She's happy and spunky now. Can you give yourself a deep breathe and just hang out with Chuckles for a bit? I would be willing to come down and help you get diet squared away and take pictures of the hooves for you. I can come down and hug you and hold your hand for a bit if you need me to. :) Please don't make any decisions right now. It's such a sad dark place to be, especially when the vets aren't helpful. I haven't followed your whole case history, so don't know if Chuckles is just IR or cushings too, but either way I am here to help you and will seriously drive down for a day to help out. I have a whole lot to pay forward to others. I have my IR pony Butters, my trail horse extraordinaire Story who I adopted from this list and is IR and my amazing cushings blind appy pony Frosty who got me riding again. I am helping a friend with her IR/possibly cushings guy right now. So I would be more then willing to help you out. Let me know okay? Don't be afraid to say yes. Don't be so hard on yourself. Just take a day or two to be sad, then get your game face on for Chuckles sake and reassess the situation with a clearer mind. We have all been where you are, you aren't alone. Pam in not so far away Virginia 12/10 with Buttercup/Story/Frosty
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Pamela Bramell
Shoot forgot to trim post - Sorry! Pam in Va 12/10 Butters/Story/Frosty ---In EquineCushings@..., <lcknie@...> wrote: ....my horse Chuckles... His whole story is in a diary on The Laminitis Site and my life is very complicated these days so getting around to filling out his history and posting pics here is proving to be difficult.... We have hit road block after road block and I have fought nobly but I think it might be time to raise the white flag. . |
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Mandy Woods
Morning Debra,
What was Chuckles doing out in his field? HE needs to be in a deeply bedded stall while he is in the Acute stage of founder. Put a blanket on him. Polo wrap his legs (or shipping boots) if you have some. Absessing is good. It means he is ridding his feet of the necrotic tissue. Good days and bad days are normal. There is light at the end of the tunnel. Did you go to Walmart to get the ER minerals? You can get flax seed already ground there in the cake baking aisle. Is there a frig in the barn? Heck its cold enough outside to not worry about the flax going bad. A little box will last a week. If you don’t buy the minerals just feed him the hay. Go buy some poly hay nets. Why do you think you are starving him? HE should be getting at least 4 nets of 5 pounds of hay a day. Take a bale home with you, soak/drain it for one hour- use poly hay nets- then take them back to the barn so the staff can feed him. This simple easy task is removing the probable trigger to his founder. He needs at least 4 nets a day. The last meal could be the biggest. Lay the net on the ground - tie the ends so he cant get a foot/leg in it and he can eat in bed. Debra, you are going to see good days and bad days. Please don’t even think about the "E" word. He's telling you he wants to live. Listen to him! Right now GRASS and grains are the enemy. NO GRASS NO GRAINS. NO apples, carrots, treats, red salt blocks etc. Just soaked/drained hay. Read the Start Here file. Mandy in VA EC PRimary Response OCT 2003 |
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kimgedckewagner
Debra, I'm short on time this morning, so I'll send hugs and well wishes and write a very brief response that tries to answer your questions fully: 1. for euthanasia, you'll need to have your vet do it. If you feel uncomfortable with asking your current vet, all you need to do is call the first vet that wanted to put him down when he was way worse and tell him "you're right" and ask for help. You have three choices in our area for disposal/burial: a. Talk with your barn owner about hiring a back hoe and burying him on the property. b Have your vet order an autopsy at Rollins. You will have to trailer him or his body there, but you won't have the disposal to worry about. c. Google buckleigh hills and have him cremated. They will come and pick him up. You need to be working with your barn owner on all of these options so that they are in the loop and helping to coordinate. 2. With that said, I don't think you or Chuckles are ready for euthanasia, though it may seem like the only option at this point. I know how utterly debilitating this has been for both of you, but all I'm seeing is two individuals fighting hard and not through quite yet. Here are some other options: 3. Lets get him past the "starvation" concerns you mention in your post. As i mentioned, i have low sugar/starch hay, ontario dehy timothy balancer cubes, vitamin E and omega horseshine right here in New Hill as a care package ready for Chuckles. If you can't come and get it, i can send it in to Raleigh with my husband if that's closer. We can eliminate diet as a concern. 4. If you need to take a break from the heavy lifting, we can talk about what it would take to board Chuckles here and let me help you with the rehab. I have also sent you a contact in the Bahama area. Did she have any other options to help? 5. If none of the above seem doable right now, before you euthanize Chuckles, please offer him up to the members of this website to see if anyone wants to take on completion of his rehab. Pam needs another one :-) I'm here if you need me. Kim & CG (IR & PPID) New Hill, NC Winter 2005 |
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LAURA MATTHEWS <lauratmatt@...>
Hi Debra! All of us on the EC site certainly feel your frustration and sense of hopelessness. We have all been there at some point and that is the purpose of this site-- to share and pour out our hearts. I was in the same boat in 2009/2010. I was at the vet with my horse and it was looking very hopeless--I was told to get busy making a "decision.' I had dabbled with some of the advice here but had not done all I could or should. The wonderful folks here got me steered in the right directions and I had three more wonderful years with my sweet Boo. The things that worked for me were getting a good barefoot trainer involved. Having that was the turning point in my Boo's life. Boots and padding are a must for comfort. No treats, no grass, no grain. Finding a source for Ontario Dehydrated Timothy Balance Cubes was such a relief. I felt that he got all the balanced nutrition from that with added vitamin e and flax. Making a dry turnout lot was so key and getting my hay tested was reassuring. We still had good and bad days and in the process I learned so much about this disease, my horse (spending time just "being there" for him) and learned about myself. The knowledge I gained can never be taken away and I in turn have been able to help others in my situation. Take it a day at a time. It isn't easy and I'll admit it can take a toll on your heart, but when I look back at how far we progressed, it warms my heart that I gave him every chance and never "quit" him. This Valentines day marks the first anniversary of Boo's passing, but with a wry grin and self satisfaction, I realize that laminitis/founder didn't win. He died from a strangulation lipoma. So we sort of won the War (-: I see you are just up the road in Durham. I live in Winston-Salem. You can certainly private email me if you'd like. The folks here are great and quite often I was told to "take a deep breath" and carry on. I would give you the same advice. Eat some chocolate and contemplate your next move. Make it deliberate and purposeful and determine that you are going to give it every try. Listen to the great advice you will get here. It will be the best help you will receive and they have proof that their way works. Chuckles will tell you when he's ready and I don't believe he is at this moment. He still can led very good life. I wish you the best. We are here for you and we are pulling for you and Chuckles and hoping for a good report soon! Laura Jesse Magoo and Angel Boo NC 2010 .
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Bonnie
I am sitting up here in the frozen north of Ontario, reading these posts for Debra and Chuckles with tears in my eyes. This list is an amazing group of people with generosity of spirit far above average. See what our horse do for us: they make us want to share ourselves, our experience, and loving service with others who are discouraged. Debra, and others who are in the thick of confusion and fear, be aware that there are people thinking of you and praying for you right now. Bonnie Ivey, Ontario 12/08 Lad, IR and PPID under control thanks to this list |
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debra.clare
He is 6 months in to recovery. Would that still be considered acute???
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I do soak his hay and have the whole time he has been sick. He lost and lost and lost weight. He got so skinny, I was concerned that someone was going to call animal control on me. He is on a feed now for laminitic horses and his pain level did not seem to change once we put him on this feed and increased it. He has been on the increased amount for about a month now. He now gets about 5 lbs of the feed per day, hay pellets,2lbs a day and 4 to 5 flakes of very soaked hay twice a day and sometimes gets lunch hay. He was getting a 1/2 cup of vegetable oil but I pulled that. He is finally beginning to gain weight and his coat is shiny. When he eats now, he gets to a point where he walks away from his hay and takes nap. This tells me he is full and content. He used to just bolt everything we gave him. There is no stall for him to go into. Once we gave up our stall at the barn, they filled up and there isn't one available. Besides, I would never lock him in a stall again. He did his time in there. If it comes to that again then I am definitely done. I had Omega HorseShine recommended to me by someone on this site. She gives it to her IR horses and they do fine. It's not very expensive so I thought I would give it a try. I do not have time to ground flaxseed. I barely have time to muck-out his shed, top off his water, take his pulse and check his feet in the evenings. My situation, unfortunately just is what it is. There is no other option unless I can find him a new home and I am trying but that is proving to be as difficult as everything else about this whole situation has been. So, considering all of this, you can understand how I might be reaching the end. Nothing is working out for us, not vets, not farriers, diet is all over place, no one around me truly knows how to help. My barn manager just does what I ask. She seems dazed by it all as well. I have to be reasonable. This is taking a toll on me, my family and God knows the poor horse. Someone seriously needs to open a rehad center in NC and everywhere for that matter. Thanks for your concern and I will keep fighting until spring but something has got to give and soon. Debra & Chuckles Durham NC --- In EquineCushings@..., "Mandy" <bittersweetfarm@...> wrote:
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debra.clare
Hi, Pam. I did reply to you by email I think but please let me knwo if you do not receive anything.
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So am I supposed to delete the previous messages. I'm confused. --- In EquineCushings@..., <dixie6264@...> wrote:
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Maggie
Hi Debra,
I can really empathize with your feelings, as I had those same feelings with Chancey at one time. I DO still think we can help you and Chuckles tho. What do you mean when you say you're "hitting road block after road block"? Can you give us some more details about that? Being back and forth with footsoreness one day and not the next, is not a road block. It is the normal progression in the recovery of a laminitic horse. You're probably tired of hearing us say it, but the abscessing is a normal part of the recovery. It's the mobilization of all the "junk" from the laminitis. Painful as it is to watch, it has to grow out. Chancey was the exact same! He would have a good day and I would be high on life thinking we were turning the corner and the next day he would be 3 legged lame--and he'd be back in his ichthammol hoof dressing again. I felt like we would take one step forward and 2 steps back and then eventually we were taking 2 steps forward and one step back and then 3 steps forward and 1 step back and so we went, until our progress was all forward. My goodness, I was so sick of the smell of ichthammol ointment! And COLD WET bags of hay!
We are all at a natural "low" right now, what with being sick of winter, mud, short days, doing chores in the bitter cold, etc. On any given day right now, I am wondering my self just why do I keep horses? Add a "sick" horse who needs even more on top of that and it can make it all even harder. Chancey was at his worst at this same time of year in 2011 and believe me when I tell you there were days when I did not think I could go on with it. There is a period of time when things are very difficult, but if you really grasp the DDT/E concept, things should turn around, and then it all gets a lot easier. Sometimes it really takes a LOT of stick-to-it-ness! That said, everyone's situation is different, and you may not be in a place emotionally, physically or financially to continue the battle. But if you are committed to doing so, you will find the support that you need here on this list. And plenty of ideas about how to get things done. We've the strength of over 11,000 like minded members all with ideas if their own on how to survive this battle. So if you have a problem, just ask!
One thing you said in your post is that Chuckles was "laying down in his field". Does this mean that you still have him on pasture and have not initiated the emergency diet? I'm not sure what you mean either by "I will not starve him any longer." You should not be starving him. He should be eating about 2% of his BW in low sugar starch hay. That is not starving him. If you don't know that your hay is low in sugar and starch then you should be soaking it to remove ~30% of the sugar and making it safe for him. Right now, while he is "critical" you need to remove anything that could be the trigger for him--no pasture, no grain, no treats, and make sure he has low sugar starch hay. SOME horses may eventually be able to tolerate a limited amount of grazing (in a grazing muzzle) but while Chuckles is in this "critical" period of recovery he cannot tolerate any pasture or other triggers. I have read his history on The Laminitis Site, and I know you've been through a lot with him, but if you can give the emergency diet a real try you may see him turn around rather quickly. The quicker you clean up his diet the quicker that stuff will stop collecting in his feet.
If the time does come that you and Chuckles decide that you've both had enough, in addition to Kim's advice, here are 2 sites with some information for you:
Please, Debra, keep us in the loop. Take deep breaths! Hang in there!
Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA March 2011 EC Primary Response http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/ |
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debra.clare
--- In EquineCushings@..., spiral1957@... wrote:
You are right, this winter has been brutal, at least for us southern folks that are not used to very cold temps and then having to be out working in it every single day. He is definitely on the that roller coaster. He had a nice day on Saturday, though when I saw him move I suspected he may be brewing another abscess and then sure enough, yesterday he was off. My trainer says he seems primarily off on the right today and that is the one I am struggling with the most. He is on a small paddock with a run in shed and has been there 5 months. There is no other option for us at the moment. He has had very good days though and then some very bad. To me it feels like one step forward and 5 back. :P What I mean by laying in his field is that he has used his shed for that the whole time he has been out there. He has lots of deep shavings on one side and sand on the other. I have seen him go from laying down 6 to 8 hours at a stretch to slowly staying up longer and longer. Now he takes a couple of naps during the day that seem to last anyone from 30 mins to maybe a couple of hours, never more than that. He stays up the rest of the time even if it is just standing in his shed. But for him to feel comfortable and safe enough to lay down outside of his shed seemed like a big deal to me. He was in reasonably good spirits and actually stretched out and rolled around a little. This did make me very happy. He was literally right in front of the shed though so not very far away. His original emergency diet that his first vet put him on was about 2 flakes of soaked hay twice a day. I would sneak him bedtime snack of hay though, soaked of course. This was to get the weight off him and boy it worked. He dropped it in a month. Then, he moved to this paddock and I was told to had Purina Enrich plus in addition to his 2 flakes of hay a day but he just kept losing and losing. That is why he is on the diet he is on today and he is starting to gain and look better. I am worried that I do not have the best farrier though and now he seems to be missing. Chuckles is due and I have not heard from him. Thanks for you kindness and support. Debra & Chuckles Durham NC
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Pamela Bramell
Kim in New Hill - You are HILARIOUS!!!! Thanks for the chuckle! -. If none of the above seem doable right now, before you euthanize Chuckles, please offer him up to the members of this website to see if anyone wants to take on completion of his rehab. Pam needs another one :-) |
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Mandy Woods
Yes, he can still be acute if you have not changed his management. You said you were soaking his hay for 30 minutes. We recommend cold water soaks of 60 miutes and the water drained off where he cant get to it. This reduces the sugar up to 30%. 30 minute soaks in Hot water. How many pounds of hay (weigh it dry) are you feeding him a day? He needs 20 pounds of dry hay a day (then soak/drain it). Get some fish hanging scales at Walmart. What is the name of the Laminitic feed for horses you are giving him? Who makes the hay pellets? Have they been tested? Vegetable oil worsens IR. We see you are trying. We are trying to help you get it figured out and changes made for Chuckles benefit. Andrea did a great job of getting you started. We still need lab work for Cushings and IR. Can you make a list of everything he gets to eat and describe his run inshed/shelter? Are you giving him iodized table salt in his bucket feed? That will encourage drinking. Can you carry a thermos of HOT water to pour in his drinking water bucket? He would be more apt to drink tepid water in the winter than water with ice floating in it. This time of year it is very important they get lots of warm water because the meals are dry hay/pellets. Something IS working out you. The Cushings List is trying to help you. Kim has given you great ideas. Maggie has offered more than support as has Laura and Bonnie. We care. We have listened to you and we are trying to work around your needs and situation. The DDT/E's work. We know you cant do it all in one day. You have to decide to follow our protocol. WE can help.
Mandy in VA EC PRimary Response OCT 2003 *********************************************************************** He is 6 months in to recovery. Would that still be considered acute??? I do soak his hay and have the whole time he has been sick. He lost and lost and lost weight. He got so skinny, I was concerned that someone was going to call animal control on me. He is on a feed now for laminitic horses and his pain level did not seem to change once we put him on this feed and increased it. He has been on the increased amount for about a month now. He now gets about 5 lbs of the feed per day, hay pellets,2lbs a day and 4 to 5 flakes of very soaked hay twice a day and sometimes gets lunch hay. He was getting a 1/2 cup of vegetable oil but I pulled that. He is finally beginning to gain weight and his coat is shiny. When he eats now, he gets to a point where he walks away from his hay and takes nap. This tells me he is full and content. He used to just bolt everything we gave him. There is no stall for him to go into. Once we gave up our stall at the barn, they filled up and there isn't one available. Besides, I would never lock him in a stall again. He did his time in there. If it comes to that again then I am definitely done. I had Omega HorseShine recommended to me by someone on this site. She gives it to her IR horses and they do fine. It's not very expensive so I thought I would give it a try. I do not have time to ground flaxseed. I barely have time to muck-out his shed, top off his water, take his pulse and check his feet in the evenings. My situation, unfortunately just is what it is. There is no other option unless I can find him a new home and I am trying but that is proving to be as difficult as everything else about this whole situation has been. So, considering all of this, you can understand how I might be reaching the end. Nothing is working out for us, not vets, not farriers, diet is all over place, no one around me truly knows how to help. My barn manager just does what I ask. She seems dazed by it all as well. I have to be reasonable. This is taking a toll on me, my family and God knows the poor horse. Someone seriously needs to open a rehad center in NC and everywhere for that matter. Thanks for your concern and I will keep fighting until spring but something has got to give and soon. |
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debra.clare
Thanks, i was wondering if that would even be a possibility. I love him so much and would hate to let him go but if it came to sending him to someone that could possibly save his life and save me from that horrible decision to euthanize then I would definitely go with that. Right now Pam in VA is being very generous and helpful so I am hopeful that she can get us back on track. :)
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Love all the comments and support here ,especially the ones about taking a step back and having some chocolate. :) I really need to do that. Thank goodness Valentines day is right around the corner because I sure can't buy it myself. :P --- In EquineCushings@..., <dixie6264@...> wrote:
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debra.clare
Sorry Kim, I am getting a little confused with who I am talking to at any given moment. I did speak with Kellie and she was very nice and I did actually go out and see her trainers farm. Um, lets just say it was not a good fit and leave it at that. Kellie seemed very nice and said she might have a couple of options but one has grass and the other is basically stall board with a little paddock attached. That doesn't sound too bad. She is not a boarding facility though and I worry that it might be a bit much to care for a horse in rehab. I have not ruled out stopping by and seeing what she has to offer just hesitant based on some things she said. They are just a family farm and I don't want to overwhelm them.
Where is New Hill?? Right now I pay $350 a month for private pasture board. I was only paying $250 a month and was coping with that okay but in January the manager raised my board because she said he was eating $270 plus dollars in hay alone and because I was no longer taking lessons with her she was losing money. I was shocked but had no choice but to pay. Again, I know it doesn't sound like much but I am trying to dig out of debt so I can pay for more tests and xrays in the future and this did not help. There are still a couple of options in Durham that might work out but still checking on those. Thanks again for being there and listening. It's wonderful to be able to just talk about this stuff to people who understand and who are not sick of hearing about it. :P Debra & Chuckles Durham NC |
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bizzibizzigirl
Hi Debra I wanted to pop in with a few words of support. I understand you have frustrations and obviously some financial constraints that are making everything difficult for you together with the fact that you need to board your horse. Our pony was going along well last year after being acute in Feb when he was diagnosed PPID, possibly IR (leptin testing to be done soon now to help determine for sure). Forward progress stopped around Oct when I noticed a slight loss of concavity in feet. This is springtime for us. I won't go into all the details but by Nov he was locked up without access to a blade of grass and was still looking footsore again and back in boots/pads. I couldn't work out what I was doing wrong. I'd been working with my trimmer who rehabs laminitic horses here. He'd had some diet recommendations that he'd been using when finally in Dec I decided to get him and my vet together for fresh trim with x-rays. We weren't expecting what we found which was bone loss and a still rotated pair of pedal bones. I was devastated. My vet felt that because Miami's coat was still dull and woody looking on his neck that we needed up his Pergolide so I started to get him up to 5ml (1mg) from 4ml. At that point I decided to take him to the trimmer's property for a 6 - 8 weeks to give me a break, break the incorrect management cycle I was obviously in and get myself ready to tackle it again. It was interesting from that point. I missed him within the week. Communications weren't regular enough nor informative enough and by the end of the 3rd week, I actually got on the phone instead of texts and emails which were their preferred contact methods. At that point I was told that he'd been off his food so they reduced his Pergolide back to 4ml thinking he was in a 'veil' and that they were going to make a few dietary changes. I was concerned as he'd been given too much chromium which I'd had him on as well at the time and there were just a few little other concerns I had. By mid that week, I decided to go get him on the weekend. That Friday I received a message to say they'd like him to stay a couple more weeks while they reintroduce him to some pasture (hot dry summer here at the moment, grass pretty ordinary) and make some more diet changes. As I'd already made up my mind, I said I'd still come get him that Sunday. When I arrived, he'd been given a nice bath and was certainly looking a bit leaner, his crest had gone and he was moving a bit better. To cut what could be a long story short, when I got him home (via a pit stop with my now new trimmer following PapBallou's notations on the trim) and went to change his cotton rug, I was absolutely shocked by the amount of weight he'd lost. His condition score was poor. Backbone visible all the way to the tailbone, ribs I could play piano on and hips pointing. His coat was shiny but neck hair still odd looking and more dull. Seeing my beloved horse like that, knowing at that moment that he'd obviously been stressing to the max at the relocation (which I'd been worried about but kept being told he was doing well), kicked me right into action. At that moment, despite feeling gutted, anxious and scared about the future for him, I decided first that (in his case), I'd never send him away or relocate him again, that I'd get his weight back up as quickly and safely as I could, that I'd increase his Pergolide further (they had him back to 5ml by home time) and change trimmer following Linda's recommendations as to aligning trim. I also made something of another decision: if I couldn't manage him properly and he kept having setbacks, I would lay him to rest. Strangely enough, as soon as I made that 'decision', a sense of peace came over me and I started to get much more involved on this group, looking through files, reading more and more, making subtle changes and getting the diet better. The change in Miami is astounding in only 6 weeks. He began shedding within a few days of increased dose and the neck lost the woody dull coat and is now normal, healthy, soft and gosh, the shine! I can't get over the shine. And, happily for him, he is coping on overnight turnout at the moment whilst our pastures are so dry and inactive (I'm also lucky that I have a lot of Australian native grass in their paddocks, it's naturally lower s/s). Of course, management will need to be readdressed once autumn break occurs but for now, he's powering forward. I posted some new pics in EC Hoof. All of this because I got angry (to be really honest) and decided I needed to step up, follow more closely the protocols here, not a bit of this and that and this one's advice or that one's advice. He's proof of how quickly things can turn around. Of course he wasn't acute in Dec and I haven't had to deal with abscessing at all so have been lucky and yes, he lives with me BUT the guidance I've received, the information available has helped me take back control and I can't begin to thank people enough. Somtimes you need to hit the bottom, which is where I felt I was at in Dec, to look for the way up and take it on board with a fresh new approach. You've had some wonderful offers of help and if you could relocate your horse for a little while to a list member with solid experience, it will give you a chance to regroup, research and renew. I'm sorry to all for waffling on in this message a bit but I hope it's helped :). Lisa & Miami Victoria, Australia 2010 |
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debra.clare
Wow, what an amazing story and I my heart goes out to you. I did make some calls today and I've found out what I need to know when the time comes to make that awful decision and just like you, as soon as I did I felt a sense of relief and a renewed sense of commitment. It would be wonderful if I found a place where he could go for a while and I felt really comfortable sending him but for the time being, I am going to continue to fight. His abscessing is back and I had to wrap his foot tonight because he is so sore on it but otherwise he was in a very good mood. We listened to classical music while I cleaned his shed and it was a good night. Thanks so much for this response and it does give me hope.
I wish you and your horse all the best. Thank You. Debra & Chuckles Durham, NC --- |
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Maggie
And good for you Lisa! It does take a commitment!! It's so great Miami is doing so much better!
I copied and pasted the following Dr. Kellon "frequently used" phrases right off of our website, http://ecirhorse.org/
"Hope is never gone until you choose to abandon it," and "Halfway measures get halfway results"
Miami and many other horses on this list are certainly a testimony to that! Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA March 2011 EC Primary Response http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/ |
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bizzibizzigirl
You're most welcome Debra. I just wanted to let you know that there are setbacks on the journey back to health but when you embrace the information available here, you can turn them back in your favour. I was lucky (?) in that Miami didn't abscess. Just a thought I had. Of course not knowing how big the field is that your horse is agisted in, would it be possible for you to create a track/loop in that field that incorporates his walk in box? You could use tread ins/pigtails and some hot tape and try to get the pick down to dirt. This gives Chuckles somewhere to get about in (when the abscesses aren't as painful) without pasture. Perhaps the barn owner would be willing to put out a few slow feeder bags or some loose piles of hay so that he has to move between them around the track? I'd recommend to you that if you opt to take a break and allow Chuckles to go to someone for a little while to break the cycle for you, please ensure it's someone who has been at this for quite a while. He needs someone who follows the protocols carefully if he's to be turned around successfully. Then my suggestion to you would be to put your feet up for a few days and forget all about it! After you've had a few days, I can guarantee you that you'll miss him and want to do something. It's an itch and you have to scratch it LOL! That's when you start to read through the various files and information here. Read about grass and it's effects on these conditions, whether confirmed or not. You're best to assume that you're dealing with IR at a minimum and house/feed him accordingly. Doing this whilst you're not in the thick of it will help you to take more of it in and give you time to implement the changes in his housing that you need/are able to and gather together some of the feedstuffs you'll need. It's a shame I'm on the other side of the planet. I'd come give you a big hug and help you get it happening. I know how lonely I felt for so long. Keep fighting; Chuckles is :) Thinking of you and sending you a cyberhug! Lisa & Miami (Arab x RP) Plus Condor & Woody (unchallenged) Victoria, Australia – 2010
CH: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Miami%20and%20Lisa/
PICS: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHoof/photos/albums/846035640
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