New Member: Steph and Chance from Ontario (March 09/14) Very sore front feet


StephJD
 

Hi,  I am a new member from northwestern Ontario.  My 23 year old Cushings/IR gelding is extremely sore in his front feet.  I am sure that we are dealing with laminitis (I hope not founder).  My vet will be out in the morning to check his feet and draw blood for the ACTH test again. We trimmed him yesterday.  His hooves were long and his heels and toes had pushed forward. They have a tendency to grow forward like this and grow very quickly (It was difficult to keep his feet trimmed as regular as normal due to extended bouts of -40 degrees temps this winter). 
I am having all of my hay tested right now and will balance the macro and micro minerals to the NRCplus recommendations, and have also switched to beet pulp and have started feeding 3 oz of fresh ground flax again.  My main concern right now is PAIN.  Are there any recommendations for pain?  Herbal? Or otherwise?  

I'm not sure if it is related, but we have had a brutally cold winter, long periods of -30 and -40, with lots of snow.  Our horses have a 7 or 8 acre turnout, but are only using about a 200 ft x 200 ft area. They have also eaten about 50% more hay than normal this winter.  Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.  I have loaded my case history as well, but still need to fill in many details: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/stephjd2%20and%20Chance/

Thanks!


Bonnie
 

Hello Steph,
Here is  Northeastern Ontario we had the same conditions, and fed as much as double the normal amount during periods of brutal wind chill. For trimming I bought a heavy-duty rasp from Apple Saddlery.  It's a Canadian company: order online or by phone.

It is a "Red Tang", which comes either plain or black-coated. The coating is to prevent rust. It has a very aggressive "bite" to it, so sometimes you need to use the back side, which is less "toothy", to roughen the hoof  edge. It is then easier to get a grip with the toothed side. Far superior to any other kinds I have tried!. I wear cotton work gloves with a rubbery coating (Mark's Work Warehouse) to get a good hold.

There is no reliable farrier available here so it's all do-it-yourself. This tool makes it possible for me, a senior with a muscle disorder, to trim my pony. So take heart: you can do it too with the help of people on this list and the related EChoof list. And the weather is warming up: soft snow makes trimming much easier.

Bonnie Ivey, Ontario 12/08
Lad, the guy with hooves of steel


Maggie
 

>>I am a new member from northwestern Ontario.  My 23 year old Cushings/IR gelding is extremely sore in his front feet.....
Hi Steph,
Welcome to the list!  Sorry to hear that Chance is having trouble.  I read your CH (good job getting that done!) and it sounds like you've been doing some reading of the files and/or on our website http://ecirhorse.org/ .  So you probably already know that the philosophy of this group is DDT/E, Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.  Good that you're getting his ACTH tested.  An out of control ACTH can cause foot pain, as well as a high insulin.  Also a high ACTH can "drive" insulin up as well.  You should add an insulin level, and glucose (and leptin level if available to you) to tomorrow's labs.  Make sure Chance has not been fasted.  We recommend having low esc+starch (under 10%) hay in front of him the night before and right up to the time of the draw.  I'm a little confused about the hay you're feeding now--if it is tested or not.  If it is tested under 10% esc+starch, then you won't need to soak it.  If not, then you should soak it for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water.  If you give him any "bucket" feed, you should wait for 4 hours after that feeding to have the labs drawn, having just the hay in front of him right up until the time of the draw. 
 
The Diet that we recommend is low sugar starch (tested to be under 10%) grass hay with minerals balanced to the hay analysis and to replace the fragile ingredients lost in the hay curing process, ground flax seed and Vitamin E.  Sounds like you are well on your way to this with having your hay for testing.  Have you taken Dr.Kellon's NRC plus class? Or are you going to need help with balancing your minerals?  When your hay analysis comes back you can post it in your file in ECH8, where you filled out your CH.  If you have taken Dr.Kellon's class, you can join the grads group and get help balancing your hay there if you need it.  We don't use WSC anymore--esc+starch is what needs to be under 10%.  The WSC also includes fructan which does not cause an insulin spike.  You need to stop the Buckeye Harvest salt and Grass plus.  They will interfere your balancing your minerals and the Grass Plus has added iron.  Use iodized table salt in the amount in the emergency diet here:  http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview/ddt-diet  Also use this diet as a guide to determine how much magnesium and Vitamin E you need to give Chance.  The emergency diet is to be used just until you can get your minerals balanced.
 
Trim:  As you know, toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs the internal structures of the foot.  Feel free, if you'd like, to post some pictures of Chance's current trim.  Put them in the PHOTOS section of your file in ECH8.  One of our hoof gurus can take a look and see how things are looking and help guide you, if need be.  Is he feeling better since you had the trimmer out yesterday?
 
Exercise, of course, only as able.  A laminitic horse should never be forced to move, but when he is feeling up to it, you can walk Chance in long straight lines with no tight turns.  Do you have boots and pads for him?  Is he in deeply bedded shavings?  These are a couple of things you might try to keep him comfortable. Boots and pads, for sure.  Soft ride boots are well thought of by a lot of folks on this list.  The pad that comes with them usually needs to have the frog support cut off, or a different pad can be used. 
 
Some horses that have had laminitis/founder have compromised circulation in their feet and can have cold induced foot pain.  There's an herb called Jiaogulan that can help with that.  It's not for use during the acute phase of laminitis, but can certainly help with cold induced foot pain. You might also try ALcar.  Both available at http://mybesthorse.com/  Let us know what the vet says tomorrow.  And hang in there!
 
Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
EC Primary Response
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/

 


StephJD
 


Thanks Maggie,

We tested ACTH, glucose and insulin, and should have the results next week.  I have also sent 3 hay samples for testing, so will be balancing the minerals soon too. Right now Chance is on 2 grams of Bute to help with pain. I can also give him 10cc of Banamine each day if needed. (Any thoughts on this?)  We are also starting him on Levothyroxine.  At what point would you suggest starting Jiaogulan and /or AlCar?  What about chasteberry?  Any tips for a low sugar/starch feed to use as a carrier for the minerals and supps?  He's not to keen on the beet pulp right now.  Would alfalfa pellets be low sugar/starch?  I'm guessing that they can vary considerably.  I'm working on getting the Timothy Balance cubes from Ontario Dehy.  IThanks for all of your suggestions and Iwill update the case history  once we get our results back. 


---In EquineCushings@..., <spiral1957@...> wrote :
>>Hi Steph,
Welcome to the list!  Sorry to hear that Chance is having trouble...  


Maggie
 

>>We tested ACTH, glucose and insulin, and should have the results next week.....
Hi Steph,
Glad to hear that you have labwork pending.  Please do let us know the results as soon as you get them.  It will help us to help you better, and may give us an answer to why he is footsore.  Could be his ACTH and/or insulin are not under control.  Do you know what his initial ACTH was when he was first diagnosed in April of 2012?  Can you add it to your CH, please? And did you do an insulin and glucose at that time as well?  I don't see it in your CH. 
 
I would definitely NOT be giving him bute and banamine together as you are increasing his risk for developing ulcers.  As difficult as it is to watch him be in pain, we actually do not recommend giving NSAIDS (bute, banamine, previcox, etc) past the initial "acute" phase of laminitis, the first 3-4 days or so.  The reason being that NSAIDS actually interfere with healing.  From your initial post and your CH, I cannot get a clear idea on how long Chance has been hurting, but I get the feeling that he is not in the *acute* phase of laminitis--that he has been sore for quite a bit of the winter.  Is this correct? Read this excellent post (#185154) from Nancy for further explanation about how NSAIDS interfere with healing:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/185154  In the first link that Nancy provided, Dr Kellon explains what the negative effects of NSAID's are, including what they do to thyroid hormone levels.  Horses are rarely truly hypothyroid, and once minerals are balanced and adequate levels of iodine and selenium are achieved, the thyroid levels will come back to normal.  Here's one post by Dr Kellon regarding thyroid supplementation:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/179719  And one from Jaini as well: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/169812  Did Chance have a low thyroid level on lab work?  Or are you using it to try to take weight off?
 
Also, pay particular attention to the second link in Nancy's post regarding weaning the NSAIDS off to avoid the rebound effect.  That link is a post by Dr Kellon with a lot of great information and also instructions on how to wean the bute.  The weaning schedule is down towards the end of that post.  There's also some information in that post on how the Jherb works to help with pain.  So, to answer your question about when it might be appropriate to start Chance on the Jherb an ALcar, I would order it now and start weaning the NSAIDS.  When you have him off the NSAIDS, get him started on the Jherb, and ALcar.  If you truly think this pain is cold induced, you might also consider AAKG.  You may have already found it, but here's a link to our file on J herb, Nitric oxide support, AAKG, and supps:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/Jiaogulan%2C%20Nitric%20Oxide%20Support%2C%20AAKG%20%26%20Supps/  Pay particular attention to the first one on AAKG.
 
As far as the chastetree berry, it does not control the ACTH.  Only the pergolide will do that.  Some members have found it helpful in addition to pergolide to help with coat issues.  Lots of prior discussion on this in the old messages. Here's a couple:
 
Alfalfa can cause foot soreness in some horses, so I would avoid that.  My boys are not fond of beet pulp either, and I use the Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance cubes (ODTB's) that you mention as a carrier for my supps.  They are tested low sugar starch Timothy hay cubes balanced by Dr Kellon.  They can actually be used as a complete feed, needing to add only salt, Vitamin E and ground flax seed.  If you add some warm water to them they fluff up into a nice moist mass chopped hay, and the supplements stick wonderfully to them.  Just don't pour off any of the water as you would be losing the minerals that balance them.  I put just enough warm water on them to make them fluff with no water left in the bottom of the bucket.  Some horses like them wetter, some drier.  You'll have to experiment.  They come out of Canada so you should be able to get them.  I would keep working on that.  You could contact Aurelio for more information on how to find them.     ahenriques at ontariodehy dot com  Replace the "at" and "dot' with the symbols.  I also use them as safe treats.
 
Can you post some pictures of Chancey's feet or us?  Here's a site that explains how to take good hoof photos:  http://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/good-hoof-photos.html   You can put them in the PHOTOS section of ECH8.  That may really give us a clue about why his feet are hurting as well.  Hang in there Steph!  You're doing a great job!
 
Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
EC Primary Response
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/


 


Betty Ann
 


Hi Steph,
I too am in North Western Ontario, not sure how close we are geographically. I am interested in getting a load of ODTBC and would be glad to find someone to share the cost of a pallet. Currently, my closest source is in Northern Minnesota, as I live close to the Ontario/USA/(Manitoba) borders.  Is this something you would be interested in?
Secondly, just curious what breed Chance is, my friend sold a horse named Chance a few years ago in the area. Just wondering if its the same horse - by chance. :)
Betty Ann Lucke
Mar 08
ON CAN

 > I'm working on getting the Timothy Balance cubes from Ontario Dehy.  

Steph and Chance
Ontario (March 2014)



StephJD
 

Hi Betty, 
I'm working on the details to pick up a pallet of 40 in Winnipeg and would be interested in splitting it.  I live near Dryden, are you close to Fort Frances?
Steph and Chance
slainte76@...
Ontario (March 2014)

<<<I too am in North Western Ontario, not sure how close we are geographically. I am interested in getting a load of ODTBC and would be glad to find someone to share the cost of a pallet.<<<




Betty Ann
 


Hi Steph, 
I am between Emo and Rainy River. You can email me with details so we don't have to put unnecessary traffic on this board: lucke at tbaytel dot net  Thank you!
Betty Ann
Mar 08
ON CAN
---In EquineCushings@..., <slainte76@...> wrote :
>>I'm working on the details to pick up a pallet of 40 in Winnipeg and would be interested in splitting it.  I live near Dryden, are you close to Fort Frances?




StephJD
 


>>> I get the feeling that he is not in the *acute* phase of laminitis--that he has been sore for quite a bit of the winter.  Is this correct? Read this excellent post (#185154) from Nancy for further explanation about how NSAIDS interfere with healing<<<
Hi Maggie,
Thanks!  You are correct he is not in the acute stage.  There is no heat in his hooves and the digital pulse is not overly strong, I can't even find it under all his feathers!  He is just very sore...Friday evening I'll have more time to dive into the reading!  I checked out mybesthorse and was wondering what the difference between the AAKG (L-arginine alpha keto glutanate) and ALcar (Acetyl-L-Carnitine) is, with regard to functions.  I will try and dive into the research as soon as possible.  I intend to order whichever one is best suited for our case,and also the Jiaogulan.  Chance's initial ATCH in 2012 was 12.3pmol/L (normal range 2-10).
Thanks,
Steph
Ont. (March 2013)


 


Connie Proceviat
 

Hi Steph and Betty Ann I live in eastern Manitoba about 60 miles east of Winnipeg. Last fall I purchased ODTC from Fleet Dist in Roseau MN because that was the closest source I could find at the time. They also carried TC 30% which I also needed after getting my hay analyzed. I would be interested to know if you have found a supplier in Winnipeg. Thank you Connie and Falki Whitemouth MB August 2013


StephJD
 

>> I purchased ODTC from Fleet Dist in Roseau MN because that was the closest source I could find at the time. <<
Hi Connie,
I have not found a supplier in Manitoba, but am looking into the possibility of having 1 or 2 pallets of ODTC dropped in Winnipeg.  Otherwise, I may be looking at going to Roseau,MN as well.  You can email me at slainte76athotmaildotcom if you want (How far off Hwy. 17 are you?).
Steph
Ontario (March 2014)


Betty Ann
 

Connie and Steph, we could look into the possibility of a price break on quantity if we could guarantee the sale of a pallet (or two) between the three of us buying from Roseau on the same load. (?) Perhaps, Connie could pick up her order (as in the past, by the sounds of it), and I could pick up for Steph so she doesn't have so far to go. For what ever reason, in the past I've found the price in Roseau to be better than the price drop-shipped on the Canadian side - just need to keep in mind the current exchange factor.
Glad to have another interested person in the area!
Betty Ann
Mar 08
ON CAN


Betty Ann
 

Connie,
Steph and I are looking into putting an order together through Roseau. Are you interested in going together on an order to get to the pallet quantity (40bags) between the three of us and thereby get a bit of a price break? The cost price to Roseau has historically been less than the price to Winnipeg - at the regular price. Would Roseau or my place be closer for you to pick up? (I am about 30 minutes West of Emo.) I am going to look into the possibility of having a pallet drop-shipped by Fleet to Baudette, which is just over the border from me, about 20 minutes West of my place. I have a cube van to store the bags until you and Steph can make the trip, if that is helpful to you. 

Please let us know a.s.a.p. as an order will be put in this coming week. 
My contact is lucke at tbaytel dot net. We can exchange phone numbers via email or just cc emails to talk together.
Betty Ann
Mar 08
ON CAN
>---In EquineCushings@..., <conniep@...> wrote :
>Hi Steph and Betty AnnI live in eastern Manitoba about 60 miles east of Winnipeg. Last fall I >purchased ODTC from Fleet Dist in Roseau MN Thank you Connie and Falki Whitemouth MB August >2013