Pabatsa's Cornell Results Not Good--Please Help


lauramollrich
 

Hi Everyone,


I just received the Cornell labs from my vet and they are not good.  Pabatsa is now in the "Severe IR" category which I believe is a first for him.


I am beside myself and am not sure where to begin--diet and Pergolide changes.  Can someone please help me?  I have been feeding him oats just after workouts, do I stop?  He is currently on 3.5 mgs. of capsule Pergolide.  Do I increase it?  I have updated this information in my ECHistory 5 file.


Dr. Kellon could you please add to this post?  


Thank you!


Laura M in CA

1/2012

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/files/Laura%20Mollrich/


Nancy C
 

Hi Laura

Please breath.  Did you update your CH? Sorry not seeing it.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
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---In EquineCushings@..., <lauramollrich@...> wrote :

Hi Everyone,




Laura M in CA

1/2012

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/files/Laura%20Mollrich/


lauramollrich
 

Hi Nancy,

Yes I did and I also sent an email to Dr. Kellon listing current diet and work load.  I can forward it to you.  And, yes I did update my ECHistory5 file.  I can't figure out why it didn't upload on this site.  I could try it again.  I sent it along with my email to Dr. Kellon as an attachment. 

I realize diet is the huge issue in getting this all under control.  I have so much to say about why these results are what they are right now.  I was away for 6 weeks and had other people feeding/medicating/exercising him. The BP may not have been rinsed even though I told them to.  He may have spit out his Pergolide capsule as he does with me, although the ACTH wasn't bad.  They may have given him oats not within the 1-hour timeframe.  

We have a new load of had that he is gobbling up.  The previous load he stuck his nose up to.  Maybe more sugar content?  I will core tomorrow.  He was also wormed with Ivermectin.  Take this into consideration also, my vet had a lot of appointments at the Stable that day.  To help out, he drew the blood and then I ran it over to his office that's about 10 minutes away.  He did not centrifuge it after drawing it.  I put the vials between an "Ice Horse" hock wrap to keep it cool but I think it might have gotten too cold.  I thought that it was frozen when I got there but the technician assured me it was ok.  

Also Pabatsa is being show this year.  We have a show coming up on June 20th and I don't know how to handle his continued 5x/week training schedule.  One of those days is a 1-hour trail and relaxation day; another day is turnout fun in the sun day.  Do I give him oats and what diet changes should I or should I not make.  He is happy and always greets everyone he sees.  The farrier even made note of it this week.  He looks beautiful, I can send you a photo of him and my trainer at the last show in May.

Thanks for helping  me.
Laura Mollrich in CA
1/2012

Yahoo Groups


Nancy C
 

I think you have a good handle on potential areas that may have caused the problem.

Unless Dr Kellon corrects me, I would continue his after work feeding and get ready for the show.

You blood was probably not too cold.  I am not aware too cold is an issue. If there was an issue with the blood it would be too low.

Test your hay, carry on, breathe and enjoy your horse.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
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Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/equine-cushing-s-and-insulin-resistance-group-inc





---In EquineCushings@..., <lauramollrich@...> wrote :

Hi Nancy,

I was away for 6 weeks and had other people feeding/medicating/exercising him. The BP may not have been rinsed even though I told them to.  He may have spit out his Pergolide capsule as he does with me, although the ACTH wasn't bad.  They may have given him oats not within the 1-hour timeframe.  

We have a new load of hay that he is gobbling up.

He is happy and always greets everyone he sees.  The farrier even made note of it this week.  He looks beautiful, I can send you a photo of him and my trainer at the last show in May.

Thanks for helping  me.
Laura Mollrich in CA
1/2012

Yahoo Groups


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 


---In EquineCushings@..., <threecatfarm@...> wrote :

I think you have a good handle on potential areas that may have caused the problem.

= = = = = =

I agree with Nancy that you have a good handle on potential problem areas.

You may or may not be able to find out if he was fed and managed as he was supposed to be.  The untested hay he is now getting is also on top of my list to check out.

The reduced work schedule could be an issue. He doesn't need the oats after a turnout day, and if his trail day is basically just walking he doesn't need it then either.  That said, I wouldn't focus on the oats per se as an issue since he did so well on the post exercise oats before.  First, make sure the hay is safe - and plan in the future to always soak hay until it is tested.  Hay has been the problem with him before. 

Although his control has deteriorated, an insulin in the low 20s is really a low risk for laminitis. Take a deep breath and get him back on the plan that was working well for him before.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


lauramollrich
 

Pabatsa has also been given the soft form of peppermint candy to help with him taking the Pergolide. Could this also be a factor why his insulin and glucose deteriorated?

I have been giving him 3 scoops = 99 grams with his supplements of WheyBolic whey protein isolate from GNC. It comes to about 3 grams of sugar total in 3 scoops.  Should I not be giving him this on days he doesn't work?  

I wormed him with one tube of Ivermectin in May. Should I worm again or wait until after the hay is tested and I re-test him at Cornell?

Is it possible that beet pulp that's either un-rinsed, or not rinsed enough causes these rises?

Thank you for helping me and Pabatsa.

Laura M in CA
1/2012
Yahoo Groups

 



Lorna Cane
 




Hi Laura,

I don't see the peppermints or the WheyBolic in your case history. History also says he's getting r/s/r beet pulp.Your question asks about non r/s/r .

Can you add the above, plus non r/s/r/ beet pulp,if that's what he's getting now? Later it will be easier to see a pattern,if in fact,these items are causing problems that he didn't have when they weren't part of the picture.

The devil is in the details.

I hope you saw Dr. Kellon's reply to you earlier today.




 Lorna in Ontario,Canada

ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
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lauramollrich
 

You are definitely right about the details!

I have been adding the Wheybolic to Pabatsa's minerals since April of 2013. I am sure of this because we wanted more muscle for the shows.  I was told it was ok but I don't remember who said it and I didn't enter it into his ECHistory5 file. I was to give him 100 grams/day.   Here's the link (I give him Vanilla):  GNC Pro Performance® AMP Amplified Wheybolic Extreme 60™ Power - Chocolate Fudge


Started giving the peppermints around November/December because he became adamant he didn't want the Pergolide and kept spitting it out.  He has some fractures in his molars so we gave him the soft ones.  Over the past week or so, he has been given celery and he actually likes it better.

When I am there to take care of his beet pulp (pelleted), I rinse it until the water is clear.  I don't know whether or not P's caretakers were able to do that. At night 2 buckets of BP are made up and soaked--one for the following morning and one for the following evening.  Should only one bucket be made up at a time.  Does bp sitting around for 24 hours for the evening feeding alter it in any way, as far as sugar goes?

And what about the wormer Ivermectin any way that have caused problems?

I uploaded a photo I took of P at the big dressage show in May.  He received high marks and scores and the judges' comments were very very good. We were super happy with P that weekend and he was super happy with us.  

Thanks!
Laura M in CA
1/2012
http://


On Sunday, June 8, 2014 11:56 AM, "windybriars@... [EquineCushings]"


 



Hi Laura,

I don't see the peppermints or the WheyBolic in your case history. History also says he's getting r/s/r beet pulp.Your question asks about non r/s/r .

Can you add the above, plus non r/s/r/ beet pulp,if that's what he's getting now? Later it will be easier to see a pattern,if in fact,these items are causing problems that he didn't have when they weren't part of the picture.

The devil is in the details.

I hope you saw Dr. Kellon's reply to you earlier today.




 Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf
Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  






Nancy C
 


Hi Laura

On the run...this may come through twice.

Make sure you read Dr Kellon's message again.

He's got plenty of protein in the last hay, the extra amino acids in your custom mix and the whey.  Plenty. You may not even need the whey now but, unless Dr Kellon corrects me,   I think I'd leave that alone because he is so happy! 

Test your new  hay.

It's not the ivermectin.

Probably not the peppermint but good that he likes celery.

Some folks believe the sugar can be driven back into the BP if it sits too long soaking.  I did not find that to be so when soaking hay overnight two years ago. Alterntive would be to make up several servings at once, freeze the individual bags, take to the barn daily when you go,  and put in fridge or a cooler next to his stall to defrost.


Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 






 


lauramollrich
 

I am coring the hay today, hopefully by Friday I will have the results.  At that time I would need help again for balanced minerals.  

Started soaking the hay last night.  I got an Igloo cooler that has 2 wheels, a drain, and an expandible handle that fits 2 big flakes perfectly.  I just add the water and close the lid.  An hour or so before going home I make up his dinner.  I make up his morning hay before I leave in the p.m.   This set up is great because I can wheel the cooler to where I need to drain off the water.  It's easily wheeled inside his pen for feeding.  He even loved eating from the cooler!

He's getting celery with his Pergolide--no more mints or candy of any kind.  

I need to know whether or not to feed he Wheybolic from GNC.  Should we maybe wait and see what the protein content is with this new hay before I discontinue giving it to him?

Thanks!
Laura M in CA
1/2012


   


On Monday, June 9, 2014 6:27 AM, "threecatfarm@... [EquineCushings]" wrote:


 

Hi Laura

On the run...this may come through twice.

Make sure you read Dr Kellon's message again.

He's got plenty of protein in the last hay, the extra amino acids in your custom mix and the whey.  Plenty. You may not even need the whey now but, unless Dr Kellon corrects me,   I think I'd leave that alone because he is so happy! 

Test your new  hay.

It's not the ivermectin.

Probably not the peppermint but good that he likes celery.

Some folks believe the sugar can be driven back into the BP if it sits too long soaking.  I did not find that to be so when soaking hay overnight two years ago. Alterntive would be to make up several servings at once, freeze the individual bags, take to the barn daily when you go,  and put in fridge or a cooler next to his stall to defrost.


Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.
The ecirhorse.org website is complimentary to the Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance outreach group. Equine Cushing's Disease, also known ...
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palomino.1982@...
 

Laura:

Just adding this in case you are soaking for longer than 1 hour:

In files: Hay information

Soaking should be done for at least one hour with cold water or ½ hour with hot water, then the water drained off where the horses can’t get to it (the water now contains all those carbs you leached out of the hay).  Do NOT soak for longer than 1 hour.

 

In warm weather, soaking longer or leaving tightly packed wet hay out for long periods can cause heat/fermentation; in colder weather this is not as apt to be a problem.



Susan

EC Primary Response

Oceanside, CA 2007


_____________________________________________ 






Started soaking the hay last night.  I got an Igloo cooler that has 2 wheels, a drain, and an expandible handle that fits 2 big flakes perfectly.  I just add the water and close the lid.  An hour or so before going home I make up his dinner.  I make up his morning hay before I leave in the p.m.   This set up is great because I can wheel the cooler to where I need to drain off the water.  It's easily wheeled inside his pen for feeding.  He even loved eating from the cooler!


Thanks!
Laura M in CA
1/2012


   






Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.
The ecirhorse.org website is complimentary to the Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance outreach group. Equine Cushing's Disease, also known ...

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afrazier726@...
 

Susan,

What if soaking longer is your only option?What I do is I soak my morning feeding the night before for an hour or so, then I take it out and hang it somewhere for the water to run out before I feed it to my mare the next morning. 

Sometimes its not feasible to sit there and wait for it to soak for only an hour. Would you say that soaking longer than an hour is still a better option than NOT soaking at all when you have and IR horse? 

Just curious about your thoughts on this. It's pretty gross to see all the sugar and dirt that turns the water brownish color! 

Thanks

Amy 
Lakeview Terrace, CA
May 2014


Lorna Cane
 


>I need to know whether or not to feed he Wheybolic from GNC.  Should we maybe wait and see what the protein content is with this new hay before I discontinue giving it to him?

Hi Laura,

I think you've missed Nancy's message from today.

Don't forget to trim the old messages from you posts.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc








 



 



Nancy C
 

DISCLAIMER:  this is my personal experience.

I soaked way longer than one hour in the igloo cooler described.  Mileage my vary in different climates, however the igloo kept the water from freezing in 22 below zero and from getting warm and giving off the beer smell in several days of 90+ degree heat. 

Laura, see previous message re:whey.  Be vigilant.  I hope it works for you.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/equine-cushing-s-and-insulin-resistance-group-inc



---In EquineCushings@..., <palomino.1982@...> wrote :




 

In warm weather, soaking longer or leaving tightly packed wet hay out for long periods can cause heat/fermentation; in colder weather this is not as apt to be a problem.



_______________ 











   






Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.
The ecirhorse.org website is complimentary to the Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance outreach group. Equine Cushing's Disease, also known ...

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palomino.1982@...
 

Hi Amy-

Keeping fingers crossed that the 3rd time is the charm in replying...........( I truly hate Neo !)

Soaking hay for longer than an hour...in hot/humid summer weather can ferment the hay and likely drive the leached sugar and iron back into the hay.

Sounds like you are soaking the hay in a hay net, then hanging to drip dry.  Again, so much depends on your temperature and climate influences.

Not sure if this is in the files..Neo will not let me 'search' and post at the same time.

I remember a member made a low platform, covered it with screening/mesh and spread the soaked hay on top to allow it to dry .  Maybe a possibility.

Other option is to soak in hot water for 1/2 hour.

What is the sugar (ESC ) /starch of this hay?

Susan
EC Primary Response
Oceanside,CA 2007








Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 


Soaking hay for longer than an hour...in hot/humid summer weather can ferment the hay and likely drive the leached sugar and iron back into the hay.
= = = = = = = = = =

Just to expand a little bit, fermentation is indeed a threat but varies considerably in how long it takes to set in. Hay soaking in a cooler will "keep" considerably longer. Fermentation = overgrowth of organisms and is undesirable for that reason. It won't drive sugar or iron back into the hay though. Sugar in fact will drop because it is the sugar that is being fermented. It's theoretically possible that if there was a large drop in pH that iron on the surface could become more soluble and could enter the hay if the level in the water was higher than in the hay but this is not likely with most hays. The pH of the soaking water is more likely to be a factor.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Coowner
Feb 2001