Hay problem


PapBallou@...
 

Sue -

Can you drop me an email at my usual email addy?

Thanks -

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Sue
 

Hi Linda,

I have asked the BO to hold off giving Busy any of the new hay until I asked what amount of this hay would you recommend I give to Busy right now?

His blood work numbers were just over the limit this spring and indicated that he was  at a severe risk of laminitis so I  feel I need your advise and expertise  before I move forward.

Is it safe to give him this hay or should I wait for the second cut and just feed him ODTBC?

When the seasonal rise kicks in at the end of this month will that add to the risk factor?

Thanks

Sue and Busy
Kingston, ON
October 2010


PapBallou@...
 




 I think Dr. Kellon said WSC does not matter because it is fermented in the hindgut and therefore does not affect blood sugar or insulin levels.  Do I have that correct? 

Hi Patti -

Here are a couple of posts from Dr K:

Yahoo! Groups

 

Yahoo! Groups

 

And from Kat:




Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Lorna Cane
 

HI Sue,

Yes,from Lois.

Soy meal is not recommended.



Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
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Sue
 

Thanks, that is good to know.

Sue and Busy
Kingston, ON
October 2010


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Sue,


Yes, there is a difference. You cannot substitute soy meal for soy hulls. Two very different things.


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team



 


Sue
 

Hi Lorna,

Thanks for the heads up.  I do use Masterfeeds  I will have Ashley check them I trusted that she would but you never know.  Do you get yours from Lois?

Reta is using soy meal is there a difference?

Sue and Busy
Kingston,ON
October 2010
 


Lorna Cane
 




I guess I need to say, since I have not had the yellow, ground up bits analyzed, "in which there appears to be" finely ground corn.

>Not only that,but the bags I have now are mostly powder ,in which there is finely ground corn.
I have been picking out the kernels,but the powder is impossible.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada


Lorna Cane
 

Hi Sue,

>He is currently getting 2 - 3 pounds of old hay (5 bales left) 2 pounds of soy hulls,

Heads up if you are feeding soy hull pellets from Masterfeeds.
They are full of corn kernels.
Not only that,but the bags I have now are mostly powder ,in which there is finely ground corn.
I have been picking out the kernels,but the powder is impossible.

From Masterfeeds:
"I usually never recommend bagged ingredients usually because they are used by our mills for some of our products but are not quality controlled from our suppliers. That is why when you receive soya hull pellets there is not a proper tag on them with garenteed percent analysis. The other thing is we do not test this product for quality control to general public". 

She went on to say:
"For any animals with IR, I usually suggest our Senior Pellet the non structural carbohydrate percent on this product is 13%, anything below 23 % is considered low."

'Nough said!

If you get your sou hull pellets from someone else please let me know,as I am still looking.

Thanks.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

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Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

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Sue
 

Hi Linda,

Phew is right, sorry I forgot that we don't add WSC, that does make a difference.

So given that Busy's bloodwork is over the limits and this hay is at the top of the limit is it safe to use?

If it is safe to use should I balance to these numbers or wait and balance to the second cut?

Is it likely the the second cut will be lower in sugars and starches?

What is the best way to manage his diet this year?

He is currently getting 2 - 3 pounds of old hay (5 bales left) 2 pounds of soy hulls, 16 pounds of ODTBC, salt, flax and Vitamin E.

He gets 1 mg. of pergolide and we intend to up it to 1.5mg at the end of July and then up it again to 2mg. after a few weeks then test.

Your suggestions are gratefully appreciated.

I have tried 4 times to add his history for you but I loose the post, sorry.  it is under ECHistory 3.

Thanks Linda

Sue and Busy
Kingston, ON
October 2010 


Patti Grisham
 

Linda,

I know that ESC and Starch are the important numbers for an IR horse, of which we have one.  I was pleased to see you say not to worry about the WSC because it does not matter.  At the No Laminitis Conference last year I think Dr. Kellon said WSC does not matter because it is fermented in the hindgut and therefore does not affect blood sugar or insulin levels.  Do I have that correct?  I have had people ask me about what matters in a hay analysis and I want to be sure that I am giving science-based answers and not shooting from the hip.  Can you help me better understand WSC so I can more accurately talk to people about it who ask? 

Thank you.

Patti
September 2012 (I think)
Oregon


PapBallou@...
 

Oh Sue!

It's not that bad!  Add starch and ESC and you get 9.9!  Totally leave WSC out of the equation!  You don't need that at all!

Whew!

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Sue
 

Hi Linda,

   I sent the sample in two small bags as I didn't have a really large zip lock bag and they did the sample in two lots ( 7.94 oz. and 6.95)  so I am averaging the two.

Results
WSC = 15.2
ESC 9.4
starch .5

Sue and Busy
Kingston, ON
October 2010


PapBallou@...
 

Hi Sue!

25%?????  Holy moly!!!!  You are looking at ESC and starch and not one of the other numbers, correct?  Not NFC which can be a higher number but is not what we're interested in.  

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Sue
 

Hi Everyone,

I have a hay problem.  My results for this years hay came back as 25.4% sugars and starches combined, Busy's numbers for insulin, glucose and ACTH are all above the top end.  I won't even consider trying to soak the sugar out of this hay.  I understand that I can just feed Ontario Dehy Timothy Complete cubes and add Vitamin E, Salt and flax but does he need additional fiber?

I also want to put out there if I can, please, if there is anyone in Central Ontario (Toronto to Ottawa) that knows of a hay producer that has hay that is suitable for our horses, Thanks.  I will post this under Horsekeeping too.

Sue and Busy
Kingston, ON
October 2010