Is this low grade laminitis?


mellow_miller@...
 

Hello,

This is my first post/question. I was advised of this site by my trimmer.

 

I have a 7yo OTTB mare, Amelia, who has abscessed for the past 2 springs.

Last year she abscessed on LF Memorial Day weekend. This year, the RF early May then LF Memorial Day weekend.

I'm thinking its the spring grass because it is happening the same time of the year two consecutive springs, but everyone, including my vet, has differening opinions ranging from sole bruising to a bad trim. 

 

She does not have any other signs of IR, as a matter of fact she is not an *easy keeper* and I struggle to keep weight on her during the winter months. She is on low starch/sugar feed (Triple crown senior and low starch pellets) and not overfed at all. She is *just now* loosing her ribby look.

 

Both abscesses broke through the coronet and I read that can cause laminar seperation where it ran up the hoof. In this case that is dead middle of the hoof and sure enough the hooves are a bit "dished" at that spot.

 

I rode Amelia under saddle last weekend and she is fine at the walk, even on hard ground, but seemed a bit ouchy at the trot. Hard to tell, really, but I didn't want to take a chance.  This is a full 4-5 weeks after the abcess broke through, which is why I'm thinking laminitis?

 

I called the vet thinking it can't hurt to have an IR test done - at least it will rule it out.

 

Does anyone have any experience with this? Everything seems "borderline" to me - like too much coincidence to just "be a random abcess" but not enough symptoms to be laminitis.

 

I will post some pics as soon as I figure out how.

 

Thank you for any help or insight,

 

Melodie

 

 


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Melodie,


Welcome to the list. Our philosophy is DDT/E, which is shorthand for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.  


DIAGNOSIS: Thoroughbreds are not a breed that is routinely IR unless there is something else driving it. If anything, they tend to need more calories than the average horse just to maintain good condition. Bloodwork is the best way to know for sure. Send a sample drawn from a NON-FASTING horse to Cornell for Insulin, Glucose and Leptin. At 7 yo, PPID (Cushings) is not a likely component here. As she has been away from the track for several years she has had time to "decompress" from the schedule, training and possible drug issues that can accompany that lifestyle so those are also not likely sources of the problems. Testing her for iron overload would be something to consider as iron supplementation is quite prevalent (and unnecessary) at the track. Iron overload could factor into some of Amelia's issues. The sample would need to be sent to Kansas State University as they are the only lab capable of doing the serum iron/ferritin/TIBC tests that are required to properly diagnose this.


DIET: Forage based with the hay tested and supplements mineral balanced to the assay. All hays have excesses and deficiencies and testing shows you exactly what is missing/excessive so you can supply the necessary nutrients in the correct amounts for the healthiest horse at the best value for you. Until you can have your hay tested, we recommend adding in the emergency diet items as they are meant to address the most common deficiencies. In Amelia's case, I don't think you need to soak her hay as she is a young TB who has trouble holding her weight so excess sugars are not likely to be a factor here. You can use rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp as a good way to add safe, extra calories and as a supplement carrier. No red or Himalayan salt blocks (contain iron and aren't correctly mineral balanced).


TRIM: Toes backed and heels low so the  hoof capsule tightly hugs the internal structures. Is she shod or barefoot? Either way, the trim must be correct first or shoes will only make the situation worse. Putting up pictures would be a real help for us. You can add them to the Photos section:


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums


Here is a link to how to take good hoof pictures:


http://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/good-hoof-photos.html


The trim could be the source of many of your girl's hoof issues. Coming from the track almost guarantees that her toes were long, heels underrun and hoof walls may nave been shelly. Flat soles would go along with this scenario. The time of year itself could be the issue rather than the consumption of grass. Depending on where you are located, weather changes and ground surface changes can cause bruising over the winter that then shows up as the weather warms and ground softens. The abscess path is usually a channel rather than a dishing effect. That dished configuration and her soreness could strictly be due to mechanical forces rather than metabolically induced laminitis. Agree that there is more to this than randomness as it has happened two years running at the same time of year.


EXERCISE: Bets thing for any horse as long as they are sound and willing. Never force a sore horse to move. Boots and pads may be in order if she is barefoot. I wouldn't recommend working her any harder than a walk until you know for sure what is causing the soreness.


We ask that you sign your posts with your name, general location and year of joining. This helps us to help you better. Also ask that you fill out a case history for your girl on our sister site ECHIstory8 so we have all the pertinent information in one place for the volunteers to refer to. You'll need to join but approval is quick.


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/%201-INSTRUCTIONS%20AND%20CH%20TEMPLATE/


Ask any questions as they come up, we're here to help.


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team




 


Mandy Woods
 

Hi Melodie,
Welcome to the list.   You have a smart trimmer!   You will see that our philosophy is quite simple.  Its DDT/E.  IF you do all 4 at the same time you will see improvement in your mare.    DDT/E means,  DIAGNOSIS,  DIET,   TRIM   and EXERCISE.  
 
But first we need you to join the ECH8 group which is our medical file.   There is a questionnaire to answer.  The answers paint a broader picture for the volunteers to read , interpret and advise you with.    Here is the link:
 
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/info
 
DIAGNOSIS is by bloodwork.   Your mare probably is not Cushings because of her age.  We are going into the seasonal rise very soon so testing her for a baseline now could probably wait.   BUT!  we have found that some horses can be ‘fed into a state of IR’.   By testing her Insulin/Glucose and Leptin  NON fasting ~~ will tell you if IR is involved.   Skinny horses can be IR as well as fat ones.     What you can do is have your vet come out early in the week to pull blood for these 3 tests.   Feed her grass hay that is low sugar/starch or if you don’t have an analysis,  soak her hay for one hour (no more) and then drain it.   Feed her this hay the night before the test and the day of the test.  We need to see what her insulin is on low sugar/starch feed.   Do NOT give her bucket feed. ..just hay.   Have your vet spin/separate the blood within  4 hours of the draw and freeze the serum.  Ship it overnight air to Cornell,  in NY.   You want this serum to get to the lab before Friday.  
 
DIET is low sugar/starch forage with minerals balanced to that hay’s assay.   This can be a little bit of a challenge buying, storing and boarding but it can be done!    We recommend under 10% sugar/starch a day.  So the TC Senior you’ve been feeding comes in at 13.2% which is higher than we recommend.  TC Lite is a better choice at 9.5%.   Infact,  rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp is the best choice.  It has a similar mineral profile as oats.  It holds water,  it can be seasoned and many horses love it.  You can feed up to 30% her body weight a day in r/s/r BP!   You will be using it as a carrier for the minerals.  The Temporary Emergency Minerals are Vitamin E,  loose iodized table salt,  magnesium oxide and freshly ground flax seed.   You can get all of this at Walmart including hanging scales to weigh your hay.  Feed her 2% her body weight a day in dry hay.  Feed at least 4 meals a day.   Many of us use smhn (small mesh hay nets) to slow their eating down.    Grass is high in sugar.   If you were to experiment with her by pulling her off the pasture and feeding the Temp ER DIET for a week pulling blood during that time would give you an honest picture if she’s IR or not.   We recommend for IR horses to remove them from grass totally.  No apples/carrots/treats, commercial feeds nor supplements.  There is sugar in everything! 
 
TRIM.  This is a fascinating part of the protocol.  By having her angles out of correct alignment with her coffin bone can cause pain,  lameness.  Do you have recent xrays  you can post in ECH8 photo section?   That would answer more questions!   Be sure to send a photo of her soles.   Here’s a link on how to take good photos.   Put the camera on the ground!   Boots and pads can make her very comfortable. 
 
 
EXERCISE hand walking if she’ can tolerate.  Be sure NOT to turn tightly or pivot.  Do NOT trot her.   NO RIDING.    Let the hoof volunteers read her films before you do anything more. 
 
Bed her on soft saw dust.  Do not use straw.....its high in sugar.   Let her move at liberty as long as she’s not rodeo inclined which could hurt her feet.    Find her deworming records.   
 
Also sending you the IR calculator.   You see when you put her numbers in it that even though the numbers are in their normal ranges the RATIOS of these numbers may show you she’s IR.    Get your bloodwork!
 
Melodie,  start a journal on her,  ask questions and take photos.  
 
Tell us where you live so we can help you source products.  Whats your mares’ name too?   and  please include the link to your Case History with your name very time  you write in. 
 
You are on your way!!
 
http://www.freil.com/~mlf/IR/ir.html
 
 
http://www.softrideboots.com/1/
 
 
 
www.equi-analytical.com      This is where you send your hay samples.  Get the Trainer # 603 for $54
 
 
http://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/good-hoof-photos.html 
 
 
www.ecirhorse.org
 
Mandy in VA
EC Primary Response
OCT 2003
 
 
 


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Melodie,


See you got two pics of Amelia's feet up - thanks. I added a quick mark-up on the RF for you to give you an idea of where the trim needs to be for that foot. The LF looks to also have some wedge but as the heels are higher and the dorsal wall is steeper the toe isn't as far out in front of her. She has what is called high-lo syndrome, which means one foot is more upright and boxy while the other is lower, flatter and wider. This is likely a trimming rather than a conformational issue. The new growth at the very top of the hoof capsule, right below the coronary band, is coming in at a steeper angle that is mirroring the location and angle of the coffin bone. As it grows down, it is being pulled away from it's correct location by the length of the overgrown toe. Totally correctable.


The green line is showing the wedge material that exists. This is not new but has developed over time. Wedge is like scar tissue that the hoof puts down to help cement the wall to the underlying tissues to try to hold it all together. It is not as strong as good laminar connections but is better than no thing at all. The blue lines are where you would like the trim to be occurring to lower her heels and bring that toe back under her. Can give you more specific recommendations when you get the sole and front shots up.


Do you have any xrays of her feet? If not, it might be wise to get some if they are in the budget. Regardless, could really use a more complete set of pics ala the link I gave you earlier.


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team



 

 


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Sorry, would help if I added the link...


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/photos/albums/1195088691


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team





 

 


melodie miller <mellow_miller@...>
 

Hi Mandy,

I joined the group and made a folder, Amelia.
But I can't seem to find the case history file/document. Or do I just build that myself?
Vet coming in about an hour... so the process has begun.

Thank You for your help and support,
Melodie


On Thursday, July 10, 2014 2:48 PM, "shilohmom@... [EquineCushings]" wrote:


 
Hi Melodie,

Welcome to the list. Our philosophy is DDT/E, which is shorthand for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.  

DIAGNOSIS: Thoroughbreds are not a breed that is routinely IR unless there is something else driving it. If anything, they tend to need more calories than the average horse just to maintain good condition. Bloodwork is the best way to know for sure. Send a sample drawn from a NON-FASTING horse to Cornell for Insulin, Glucose and Leptin. At 7 yo, PPID (Cushings) is not a likely component here. As she has been away from the track for several years she has had time to "decompress" from the schedule, training and possible drug issues that can accompany that lifestyle so those are also not likely sources of the problems. Testing her for iron overload would be something to consider as iron supplementation is quite prevalent (and unnecessary) at the track. Iron overload could factor into some of Amelia's issues. The sample would need to be sent to Kansas State University as they are the only lab capable of doing the serum iron/ferritin/TIBC tests that are required to properly diagnose this.

DIET: Forage based with the hay tested and supplements mineral balanced to the assay. All hays have excesses and deficiencies and testing shows you exactly what is missing/excessive so you can supply the necessary nutrients in the correct amounts for the healthiest horse at the best value for you. Until you can have your hay tested, we recommend adding in the emergency diet items as they are meant to address the most common deficiencies. In Amelia's case, I don't think you need to soak her hay as she is a young TB who has trouble holding her weight so excess sugars are not likely to be a factor here. You can use rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp as a good way to add safe, extra calories and as a supplement carrier. No red or Himalayan salt blocks (contain iron and aren't correctly mineral balanced).

TRIM: Toes backed and heels low so the  hoof capsule tightly hugs the internal structures. Is she shod or barefoot? Either way, the trim must be correct first or shoes will only make the situation worse. Putting up pictures would be a real help for us. You can add them to the Photos section:


Here is a link to how to take good hoof pictures:


The trim could be the source of many of your girl's hoof issues. Coming from the track almost guarantees that her toes were long, heels underrun and hoof walls may nave been shelly. Flat soles would go along with this scenario. The time of year itself could be the issue rather than the consumption of grass. Depending on where you are located, weather changes and ground surface changes can cause bruising over the winter that then shows up as the weather warms and ground softens. The abscess path is usually a channel rather than a dishing effect. That dished configuration and her soreness could strictly be due to mechanical forces rather than metabolically induced laminitis. Agree that there is more to this than randomness as it has happened two years running at the same time of year.

EXERCISE: Bets thing for any horse as long as they are sound and willing. Never force a sore horse to move. Boots and pads may be in order if she is barefoot. I wouldn't recommend working her any harder than a walk until you know for sure what is causing the soreness.

We ask that you sign your posts with your name, general location and year of joining. This helps us to help you better. Also ask that you fill out a case history for your girl on our sister site ECHIstory8 so we have all the pertinent information in one place for the volunteers to refer to. You'll need to join but approval is quick.


Ask any questions as they come up, we're here to help.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team



 



Mandy Woods
 

Hi Melodie,
Here is the link to Amelia’s CH.  
Please cut and paste it to your signature so it is always available to the volunteers.  That really helps speed up an answer.  Add Md to your signature too!
 
Did you get xrays?  Please post them in your CH.  And pictures of her feet (sole, lateral and heel/toe angle) would help.
 
Regarding Remission:  Why not get a 50# bag of magnesium/oxide 54% at Southern States for under $20.  This will last you years.   There arent enough minerals in Remission.  Amelia is a big girl and will need more minerals when you get your hay analyzed.  Many of us on the east coast buy California Trace because its packed with minerals our east coast hays are deficient in.  Have a look at  www.californiatrace.com      The alfalfa hay you’re feeding may not be helping. Some horses become foot sore on alfalfa.  Stop the carrots temporarily because of the sugar in them.  Lets see what her bloodwork says.    IF you have a SS near you ~ get them to order Ontario Dehy Balance Timothy cubes.  These are completely balanced, safe low sugar/starch cubes.  All you add is Vitamin E,  Isalt,  and freshy ground flax seed.  They make excellent ‘treats’ too!
 
Lavinia is giving you sound advice on your mare’s feet.  Lavinia is one of our hoof people.  I use her too! 
 
Hang in there.  Take it one day at a time.  But remember for best results incorporate all 4 points of our philosophy ~ DDT/E.  
Mandy in VA
EC Primary Response
OCT 2003
ps:  just one more instruction ~ please delete the previous email you are responding to.  Our files are getting full with so many new members!   Thanks,M.
 


melodie miller <mellow_miller@...>
 

Thanks Mandy,

Funny, I didn't even think of x-rays until today! And I see you are asking me. I am going to schedule them ASAP. For one thing I'm still not sure what I'm dealing with. 
I took some pics this morning and am posting them now. Does she look like a bout of laminitis? There is a dish in the middle of the hoof where the abscess was. I believe I already posted that she was trimmed yesterday and is sore again - though not as dramatically as she was after the previous trim. 
What would make her sore after a trim? Even the trimmer was surprised and expected her to feel better, not worse. 
Thank you for the advice on minerals.. We have a Southern States close by so that would be very convenient.
As soon as I get the IR results and X-rays I'll post them. Then at least I will know what I am dealing with.

Thanks Again,

Melodie  (in MD)
 


On Saturday, July 12, 2014 8:54 AM, "'Mandy' bittersweetfarm@... [EquineCushings]"


 
Hi Melodie,
Here is the link to Amelia’s CH.  
Please cut and paste it to your signature so it is always available to the volunteers.  That really helps speed up an answer.  Add Md to your signature too!
 
Did you get xrays?  Please post them in your CH.  And pictures of her feet (sole, lateral and heel/toe angle) would help.
 
Regarding Remission:  Why not get a 50# bag of magnesium/oxide 54% at Southern States for under $20.  This will last you years.   There arent enough minerals in Remission.  Amelia is a big girl and will need more minerals when you get your hay analyzed.  Many of us on the east coast buy California Trace because its packed with minerals our east coast hays are deficient in.  Have a look at  www.californiatrace.com      The alfalfa hay you’re feeding may not be helping. Some horses become foot sore on alfalfa.  Stop the carrots temporarily because of the sugar in them.  Lets see what her bloodwork says.    IF you have a SS near you ~ get them to order Ontario Dehy Balance Timothy cubes.  These are completely balanced, safe low sugar/starch cubes.  All you add is Vitamin E,  Isalt,  and freshy ground flax seed.  They make excellent ‘treats’ too!
 
Lavinia is giving you sound advice on your mare’s feet.  Lavinia is one of our hoof people.  I use her too! 
 
Hang in there.  Take it one day at a time.  But remember for best results incorporate all 4 points of our philosophy ~ DDT/E.  
Mandy in VA
EC Primary Response
OCT 2003
ps:  just one more instruction ~ please delete the previous email you are responding to.  Our files are getting full with so many new members!   Thanks,M.
 



Mandy Woods
 

 
 

Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2014 10:52 PM
Subject: Re: [EquineCushings] Re: Is this low grade laminitis?
 


Thanks Mandy,
 
Funny, I didn't even think of x-rays until today! And I see you are asking me. I am going to schedule them ASAP. For one thing I'm still not sure what I'm dealing with.
I took some pics this morning and am posting them now. Does she look like a bout of laminitis? There is a dish in the middle of the hoof where the abscess was. I believe I already posted that she was trimmed yesterday and is sore again - though not as dramatically as she was after the previous trim.
What would make her sore after a trim? Even the trimmer was surprised and expected her to feel better, not worse.
Thank you for the advice on minerals.. We have a Southern States close by so that would be very convenient.
As soon as I get the IR results and X-rays I'll post them. Then at least I will know what I am dealing with.
 
Thanks Again,
 
Melodie  (in MD)
 


On Saturday, July 12, 2014 8:54 AM, "'Mandy' bittersweetfarm@... [EquineCushings]" wrote:


 
Hi Melodie,
Here is the link to Amelia’s CH.  
Please cut and paste it to your signature so it is always available to the volunteers.  That really helps speed up an answer.  Add Md to your signature too!
 
Did you get xrays?  Please post them in your CH.  And pictures of her feet (sole, lateral and heel/toe angle) would help.
 
Regarding Remission:  Why not get a 50# bag of magnesium/oxide 54% at Southern States for under $20.  This will last you years.   There arent enough minerals in Remission.  Amelia is a big girl and will need more minerals when you get your hay analyzed.  Many of us on the east coast buy California Trace because its packed with minerals our east coast hays are deficient in.  Have a look at  www.californiatrace.com      The alfalfa hay you’re feeding may not be helping. Some horses become foot sore on alfalfa.  Stop the carrots temporarily because of the sugar in them.  Lets see what her bloodwork says.    IF you have a SS near you ~ get them to order Ontario Dehy Balance Timothy cubes.  These are completely balanced, safe low sugar/starch cubes.  All you add is Vitamin E,  Isalt,  and freshy ground flax seed.  They make excellent ‘treats’ too!
 
Lavinia is giving you sound advice on your mare’s feet.  Lavinia is one of our hoof people.  I use her too! 
 
Hang in there.  Take it one day at a time.  But remember for best results incorporate all 4 points of our philosophy ~ DDT/E.  
Mandy in VA
EC Primary Response
OCT 2003
ps:  just one more instruction ~ please delete the previous email you are responding to.  Our files are getting full with so many new members!   Thanks,M.
 



Mandy Woods
 

,
Something is going on inside Amelia’s feet.   We will have to get all the ducks in a row before a DIAGNOSIS can be given.   The DDT/E’s.    I can tell you  a horse  abscessing  is in pain!                I think soaking her feet in warm water with a squirt of Dawn dish washing soap and a double squirt of Betadine in the water will help her feel better temporarily.  One thing that can set up an abscess is changing the hoof angles.     Bute wont begin to help her pain.    You can also order Clean Trax and/or Oxine to soak her feet in.  Oxine is the best buy.  Look on Amazon.com for it and get the citric powder which activates it.  
 
You have nothing to lose and every thing to gain by starting her on the Emergency Diet.    The Diet we recommend is good for any horse.     When was she last raced? 
 
The good news is abscessing is the body getting rid of necrotic tissue.   I would just hand walk her to keep her undercontrol until more is known.  Hopefully your vet has a digital xray machine and gives you your disk while you wait.
 
Hang in there!
Mandy in VA
EC Primary Response
 


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Melodie,


Thanks for adding the newer shots. There are definite issues with Amelia's trim, enough that they could be the sole source of her ongoing soreness and abscessing. I moved all of your photos into one album on ECHistory8:


Yahoo! Groups


Is the pic labeled LF actually the RF(?). If there has been laminitis it may be mechanical rather than metabolic, which means that the hoof form is not correct and is causing a lot of tearing forces on the laminar connections each time Amelia takes a step. She definitely should not be worked/ridden until corrections are made to her trim and boots and pads are a priority to keep her comfortable and prevent further concussive damage.


I see the areas where the older abscesses are growing out on the dorsal(front) walls. If you tap on the hoof wall below this point do you get a hollow sound? If so, how far to each side? The dishing is likely a combination of the long toes, possible rotation/sinking and abscess tracts destabilizing the connections even more.


The sole appears to be fairly flat, with no concavity. Heel buttresses are too far forward and the bars are also run forward and rolling onto the sole. It is likely the sole is thin, at least on the flatter RF. Toe is definitely too long on both and heels will need to be backed and dropped WITHOUT removing sole depth. This will likely be trickier to accomplish on the RF as the coffin bone angle may already be ground parallel or even slightly negative plane. Xrays are a very good idea. Please take a look here, on our sister site ECHoof, for How to Get Good Xrays:


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHoof/files/X-Rays%20%26%20Radiographs/


I know it's a bit of a pain but could you get pics of all the soles and lateral and dorsal shots as well? Need the camera to be on the ground 12-18 inches from the foo, good lighting or use the flash. Soles square in the center of the shot. A couple of body shots would also be helpful. Try to hold the foot steady when taking sole shots - maybe you can get a friend to hold the foot up for you? Once you get these, I can do some specific mark-ups and explanations for you to illustrate exactly what needs to be done. Can also do the same for the xrays once you have them.


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team




melodie miller <mellow_miller@...>
 

Oh My,  this is very disturbing. I felt something was wrong this past trim (2 days ago) as this is the second time she is very sore AFTER the trim.  I feel terrible thinking I have hurt my poor horse, I love her so.... I took her off the track at just-turned-5 and have taken the "slow route" building her confidence and trust.

I have scheduled x-rays for this week, as soon as the vet can come out. I will certainly take the pics as you suggested. No problem at all. I am so very thankful for any help. 
I just feel terrible.  
BTW.. I  would never ride her sore. Ever.

I work daily so the pics won't be posted until tomorrow evening sometime. 

Again, thank you so much for your help.  
Yours'
Melodie


On Sunday, July 13, 2014 2:09 PM, "shilohmom@... [EquineCushings]" wrote:


 
Hi Melodie,

Thanks for adding the newer shots. There are definite issues with Amelia's trim, enough that they could be the sole source of her ongoing soreness and abscessing. I moved all of your photos into one album on ECHistory8:

Yahoo! Groups
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
Preview by Yahoo

Is the pic labeled LF actually the RF(?). If there has been laminitis it may be mechanical rather than metabolic, which means that the hoof form is not correct and is causing a lot of tearing forces on the laminar connections each time Amelia takes a step. She definitely should not be worked/ridden until corrections are made to her trim and boots and pads are a priority to keep her comfortable and prevent further concussive damage.

I see the areas where the older abscesses are growing out on the dorsal(front) walls. If you tap on the hoof wall below this point do you get a hollow sound? If so, how far to each side? The dishing is likely a combination of the long toes, possible rotation/sinking and abscess tracts destabilizing the connections even more.

The sole appears to be fairly flat, with no concavity. Heel buttresses are too far forward and the bars are also run forward and rolling onto the sole. It is likely the sole is thin, at least on the flatter RF. Toe is definitely too long on both and heels will need to be backed and dropped WITHOUT removing sole depth. This will likely be trickier to accomplish on the RF as the coffin bone angle may already be ground parallel or even slightly negative plane. Xrays are a very good idea. Please take a look here, on our sister site ECHoof, for How to Get Good Xrays:


I know it's a bit of a pain but could you get pics of all the soles and lateral and dorsal shots as well? Need the camera to be on the ground 12-18 inches from the foo, good lighting or use the flash. Soles square in the center of the shot. A couple of body shots would also be helpful. Try to hold the foot steady when taking sole shots - maybe you can get a friend to hold the foot up for you? Once you get these, I can do some specific mark-ups and explanations for you to illustrate exactly what needs to be done. Can also do the same for the xrays once you have them.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team





Lorna Cane
 

Hi Melodie,

It's all going to come together.Your girl is very lucky to have you,so you're not allowed to look back.You're both on your way now.

We ask everyone to sign their name,location,and date they joined the group,plus adding the link to their case history.If you can do that each time you post a message,it will be very useful to those helping you help your girl.

Also,we ask everyone to delete the old message from their post,so that people on Digest don't have to scroll and scroll through everything they have already read to get to a new message.
It also makes it much easier to do a search for information in the future.

It'll get easier,so just keep breathing.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

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PapBallou@...
 




---In EquineCushings@..., <mellow_miller@...> wrote :

Oh My,  this is very disturbing. I felt something was wrong this past trim (2 days ago) as this is the second time she is very sore AFTER the trim.  I feel terrible thinking I have hurt my poor horse, I love her so.... I took her off the track at just-turned-5 and have taken the "slow route" building her confidence and trust.

Melodie -

As was previously mentioned, I think, OTTB can come with 'hidden' surprises that you're not expecting.  But catching these things with the feet when they can be addressed is the key, and that's what you have done here.

It's not unusual to see unexpected hoof issues with the running QHs when they come off the track.

The trim or trim technique probably had nothing to do with it, so don't feel bad, and don't allow your trimmer to feel bad.  We see these things so often and can help you both get it all organized. 

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004 


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Melodie,


This isn't your fault and Amelia is lucky to have you as such a caring owner so no more self-flagellation - OK :) . You have very good instincts, which is a huge plus for your girl. It is highly likely you "inherited" these issues as they are common in the TB racing world and also the broodmare scene. We see them here on an almost daily basis. What matters is that the issues have been identified and that you are working to clarify and correct them.


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team





---In EquineCushings@..., <mellow_miller@...> wrote :

Oh My,  this is very disturbing. I felt something was wrong this past trim (2 days ago) as this is the second time she is very sore AFTER the trim.  I feel terrible thinking I have hurt my poor horse, I love her so.... I took her off the track at just-turned-5 and have taken the "slow route" building her confidence and trust


melodie miller <mellow_miller@...>
 

Thank you so much for your offer to look at more pics of Amelia's hooves. 
The vet is coming tomorrow to take x-rays.  The IR results combined with the x-rays should give a good idea of what is *really* going on.

I posted pics I took today. My husband mislabled the hooves - he labeled the hooves backwards.. LF = "our" LF, Amelia's RF. Sorry, he barely knows which end eats and which end kicks.
Also, the one "confirmation" pic is from last year July.  The current trimmer began in November 2013. I included that picture as a baseline. BTW.. yes, she really is an OTTB, I know she is "built like a warmblood" but she came right off Penn racetrack.

I tapped the hoof and could not distinguish any "hollow" sound from a "solid" sound. Could be I'm not experienced enough but I could not discern a difference.

A bit of background.  Off the track her feet were a mess and she couldn't hold a shoe. She is also unbalanced (though less now) with her right hoof flared and larger and her left hoof smaller and more upright.  I have been working on that under saddle and she has come a long way. 

I pulled her shoes in August 2012 (5 months after purchasing her) to let her feet rest and never went back to shoes. She was doing well with a pasture trim but after doing some research decided she should be trimmed by a barefoot trimmer. Beginning November 2013, a trimmer (with rave reviews) began trimming Amelia, following the Pete Ramey style trimming. She was doing great until May (we even jumped barefoot) when Amelia abscessed on her right fore.  2 weeks after that abscess broke she abscessed on the left fore.  She was getting better (just a little ouchy) and she was trimmed and went totally sore on both fronts. That was 4 weeks ago.  My trimmer feels Amelia has laminitis and suggested this website.  Friday she was trimmed again and immediately went sore on both fronts again, though much less ouchy as after the trim 4 weeks ago. (the June pics).

My trimmer is not aggressive. She shows where the "toe wants to be" and it is quite far back and is getting there slowly. I'm wondering if the toe trim is making Amelia sore?  I know she doesn't touch the heels. Also, the toe callus on Amellia's LF just recently let loose and is gone!

I read that when the abscess breaks through the coronet it can cause the laminea to loosen. So.. is this laminitis due to the abscesses or are the abscesses due to laminitis? I guess that is the million $$ question.

Again,
Thank You for your support and understanding,  it really helps. Especially since Amelia is the only barefoot horse at the stable.

Melodie, Chesapeake City, MD. member since  July 2014
 


On Monday, July 14, 2014 12:55 PM, "shilohmom@... [EquineCushings]" wrote:


 
Hi Melodie,

This isn't your fault and Amelia is lucky to have you as such a caring owner so no more self-flagellation - OK :) . You have very good instincts, which is a huge plus for your girl. It is highly likely you "inherited" these issues as they are common in the TB racing world and also the broodmare scene. We see them here on an almost daily basis. What matters is that the issues have been identified and that you are working to clarify and correct them.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team




---In EquineCushings@..., <mellow_miller@...> wrote :

Oh My,  this is very disturbing. I felt something was wrong this past trim (2 days ago) as this is the second time she is very sore AFTER the trim.  I feel terrible thinking I have hurt my poor horse, I love her so.... I took her off the track at just-turned-5 and have taken the "slow route" building her confidence and trust




PapBallou@...
 





2 weeks after that abscess broke she abscessed on the left fore.  She was getting better (just a little ouchy) and she was trimmed and went totally sore on both fronts. That was 4 weeks ago.  My trimmer feels Amelia has laminitis and suggested this website.  Friday she was trimmed again and immediately went sore on both fronts again, though much less ouchy as after the trim 4 weeks ago. (the June pics).

Hi Melodie -

Lavinia is having neo problems so will pop in in case she's having a meaningful discussion with her computer...

My trimmer is not aggressive. She shows where the "toe wants to be" and it is quite far back and is getting there slowly. I'm wondering if the toe trim is making Amelia sore?  I know she doesn't touch the heels.

 Unless Amelia is dealing with Lyme, it is highly unlikely she has laminitis.  Highly unlikely...regardless of an abscess track up through the coronet band.  Even that should cause minimal damage that would easily be able to repair itself.  Suspect the abscesses may be due to the bad form you describe finally getting under control, so the feet have been able to start cleaning  up after whatever happened on the track.

It will be good to see the x-rays.  Strongly suspect she has some descent, based on what the hoof capsules look like, her history, and her current symptoms.  So very, very common.  And if that's the case, the x-rays are the best investment you can make.   That will really dictate what should and should not be done as far as the trim.  Main thing is to keep her comfy, with boots/pads or casts, or similar.

Linda
EC  Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004




sally.stork
 

STOP blaming yourself! I had the same thing with my horse years ago and my vet told me its not a bad trim you did(or from farrier doing it) in these type horses---they have lots of nerve damage intheir feet like diabetic people get intheir feet and whoever trimmed it is going to get a slight sore horse---most have high insulin and need it lowered and the feet protected in boots. Sally, Elkton,MD, since 2009


melodie miller <mellow_miller@...>
 

 
All,
 
Sorry for the long time between responses. Was on travel and waiting for the vet to get back to me with results. Was likely good for my horse in that she was pastured and not bothered by me.
 
The vet relayed the results to me - IR test is negative and hoof x-rays (both fronts) show no laminitis, only thin soles.  I still want to post the results of both tests here for second opinons. But she should at least be able to see laminitis if it is present.
 
The vet said she will send me the x-rays and IR results soon. She works for herself, is on he road and doesn't have "office help" so she can be tardy in this area. As soon as I get then I will post them.
 
I'm thinking the reason my horse has been sore after the past 2 trims is the abscesses were making the sole more sensitive? She gets a Pete Ramey style trim which lowers the hoof wall, allowing the sole more contact. And yes, I am a bit hesitant about the next trim. I'm thinking leave the inner walls a bit longer? Just a tad?
 
I rode her for the first time in about 3 months yesterday and she seemed fine. Choppy gaits but since she hasn't really been ridden since Easter this is expected. I could not detect any head bob or favoring of a hoof.  She moved forward willingly. 
Hopefully, one *battle* has been overcome.  The next is a trim that is *right* for her and perventing this from happening next spring?
I may have to find a new trimmer - my trimmer has gotten frustrated (and sad?) with her being sore after the trims and wants me to find someone else. I really want to keep Amelia barefoot if possible. I feel that if she were shod she likely wouldn't have been ouchy but that can be a short term solution and I am looking for long term health.
 
I did put her on Remission for now, at least until I learn more. My chiro/vet recommended it so I finally decided it was time to give it a try.
 
Thank you everyone, and I will post the results ASAP.  As usual, any insights, thoughts, hunches are appreciated.
 
Yours'
Melodie Miller
 
 


mellow_miller@...
 

Hi All,

I finally received the IR results and I updated the case history file. the link is below.  I still haven't received the x-rays yet. I will not be using this vet in the future.
Just an update - my horse is still sore.  I had the vet/chiro out (years of experience) to have a look and she said there is definitely some laminae inflamation - the RF is dished. She suggested more frequent trims until the hoof grows out and boots to make her comfortable if necessary.
Had the trimmer out today, brought back all 4 toes 1/2". She also removed some outer wall which she said she only does when the horse is sore and/or there is a tear of wall off coffin bone (don't know what that means, will ask her.)
Put epic with 1/2 pads on Amelia and she trotted off. Still seems a little sore on hard surfaces but no head bobbing, just shorter strides.

As stated before, she is now on Remission. My vet/chiro told me the tri-state area is very low on magnesium and Remission is needed.

I hope I am doing the right things - I am very torn. 

As soon as I get the x-rays I will post them. In the meantime - her IR results are here:

As usual - any insight or help is greatly appreciated.

Thank You,
Melodie Miller
Chesapeake City, MD.