slightly off topic.. anyone heard of ' Hops " in horses?


bigwhitevan2002
 

Hello,

This may be a slight rant , I have been attempting to help a friend who has had trouble with her mare for over a year now, she is a 4 year old paint.

her symptoms : cresty neck, fat pads, over weight, trips easily, unwilling to move, sore hind end often very contracted hindquarter muscles. lays down alot..


What the vet has done so far, tested for EPM , Epsm, and all the other acronym disorders, bone cancer, all other muscle disorders, done biopsies, blood work cbc, but not insulin ( glucose was high) ...tested for OCD in hocks, untasound hips , back, shoulders.. you name it she has spent thousands of dollars on this horse...


My friend does ask for my help, I do give her gentle suggestions, like take her off her senior feed.-- vets suggestion for the fat to treat the EPM  the vet also told her she need low sugar hay, ALONG WITH THE SENIOR..???? i have given her some Mag ox and the name of my hay supplier, but of course when it comes to fully going onto a IR diet she defers to what the vet has said.


I was at the vet with her when the biopsy results ( second ones) came back nothing wrong and got a glimpse of her glucose, ( no insulin) which was high , so i gently suggested to the vet she was Insulin resistant, to which she responded," yes she could be slightly", she is on aspirin, no exercise, no turnout, hand walking 10 minutes, lives in her dark stall all day every day...


I got a call from my friend that the Vet has a diagnosis finally, its a rare disease, discovered by some Swedish veterinarian, called 'Hops" it basically means her horse uses her hind muscles more and causes the tying up of her hind end....if she can handle walking with out the hind end contractions then do so, the horse will never be sound to ride ....


Why this is a rant... this is the vet I have been using, she is close by the farm where horses are kept. is why i switched,, but the more I see her and her working with this horse ( and her lack of education concerning mine), the more I am losing any confidence in her, besides the ' discussions' I had with her over my horses care, , what to feed pony, weather pony was fixable etc..she always yields to my wishes, I admit it would be hard not to yield to me, I can be a formidable foe, when it comes to caring for my horses, or children.. meaning I will stand my ground...


I am helping this horse best I can , with out stepping on toes, ( the friend is my BO. and my daughters landlord) but I really think what this horse has had forever is low grade laminitis...and is probably off the charts in ratios,...


has anyone ever heard of this 'hops' disorder in horses.  I am really really bugged by all this vet has put this horse and owner through and its driving me crazy and getting hard to keep my mouth shut...I just want to take her and shake her until she ' gets it" 


but i could be wrong, I have had a hard time just ignoring this horses obvious discomfort,


IS there such a thing as this "hops" in horses..???


I know this is not actually  appropriate to post on here, but I have been screaming inside for almost a year and need someone to hear me..or tell me I am wrong in my suspicions..or give suggestions , I have printed the IR pages out , for horse owner, she boo hoo it and listens to the vet, I think she likes having a 'sick ' horse for all the attention.... I dunno I am just irritated by it all, anyone have any similar experiences with friends? and do you just walk away? 


I am seriously so annoyed I might stop using this VET.


Julie

Oregon 06

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Lorna Cane
 




>This may be a slight rant , I have been attempting to help a friend who has had trouble with her mare for over a year now, she is a 4 year old paint.

her symptoms : cresty neck, fat pads, over weight, trips easily, unwilling to move, sore hind end often very contracted hindquarter muscles. lays down alot..


Hi Julie,


From the rest of your message,and what you have said above, my thought would be that her front feet are sore,and her hind end is also sore trying to get weight off the sore front end.(I think that's what you're thinking,too)


Glucose isn't generally high with insulin resistance,but not knowing the glucose doesn't help us.High glucose(what do you mean by *high*?) usually points to diabetes in horses.Not that common, but I have one.


Since this has been going on so long, and since the mare is no better, and since your friend hasn't tried what you have to suggest as a complete program, isn't there a wee chance she would humour you and just give it a go,just in case it could help this poor mare?

I can't see it hurting her.

Maybe she ,in turn,could get her vet to humour her,if she defers to her in spite of the long unsuccessful history with this horse.


Good luck.Good for you trying to help!


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
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Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Julie,


When you hear barking it's best to think dog first rather than werewolf.


The fat pads, crest, overweight, tripping, hind end soreness are classic for subclinical laminitis. Was the high glucose actually above normal range or still within the labs normal ranges? If outside normal, that's diabetic by definition. Is there any distortion in the hoof walls - rings, steeper wall growth just below the coronary band? Has the vet done nerve blocks on the front feet to whether this makes the horse sounder? XRays of feet? obviously, insulin/glucose/leptin blood work is indicated.


These would be the simplest, most cost effective, most obvious diagnostics to perform before chasing werewolves.


Obviously recommending feeding high fat to treat EPM (EPSM?) when the test results were negative makes no sense. Neither does recommending a high s/s feed along with low s/s hay.


Sounds like you may be on to something with the reasons behind this owner's (and vet's) continued obsession with finding an obscure diagnosis without eliminating the basics first.


Only you can decide when it is time to disengage for the sake of your sanity. There is only so much you can do for someone else's animal when they won't listen.


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Suppoprt Team



Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Long story short here,she needs to get insulin tested. The results will then direct therapy.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001




Lorna Cane
 


>Glucose isn't generally high with insulin resistance,but not knowing the glucose doesn't help us.


Meant to say not knowing *insulin* doesn't help us.


D for proof reading.



Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
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Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

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bigwhitevan2002
 

Hmm...
well I will talk to owner and see if the next time she has the vet over or when she trailers this mare back to the clinic they will pull insulin/ leptin and glucose etc... the mare is also on lots of vitamin E per vet instructions,

I have given her some California trace to give the mare also, and she has purchased her own, we are deficient in selenium, and it seems pretty good for that,   I also have suggested mag ox which she is doing..
I will keep trying, the horse is only 4 and could be so great as a trail horse..such a waste right now..makes me sad.

Thanks all...

Julie
Oregon 06


 

Hi Julie - long time! Nice to see you, but not under these circumstances.

The best way to induce IR in a non-IR animal is to feed high fat. This is done routinely in lab animals to study IR. You might point this out to your friend. Do you think the mare has laminitis, too?

Never heard of "hops" in horses. Maybe if your friend sat down and did a Google search and saw for herself what comes up and then compares to "equine insulin resistance," she could draw some parallels?

I know your frustration. The old, "you can lead a horse to water..." adage. Still, at only 4 years of age - what a waste!

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
December 2005
Director, ECIR Inc.


bigwhitevan2002
 


Hey Kathleen !!
nice to 'see' you too, I think of you here and there especially when I hear something about Branson MO. ..

I will keep tying for the mares sake, I really think this gal loves the attention she gets for having a 'special case' horse, I have mentioned low grade laminitis-- oh I dunno about a thousand times and get shot down every time, vet says hoof testers show nothing , her trimmer says her feet are fine , tho after her trim on Monday the next day she was lame in both fronts, and laying down again. BIG SIGH... 

This is the same Debby downer who was giving me grief that my Pony was a goner back in February, when she foundered, I also suspect that even tho pony was on strict feed guidelines would still give her ' little ' treats, needless to say we moved pony out of harms way..=== saying all that to say this...

she is 100% vet believing even tho I have pointed out that vets are great for medical things, but often miss the boat on nutrition..and more often miss the boat on lameness....I will keep trying in about a week when her poor horse is again lame, after another abscess, even tho she never goes outside to get any kind of injury to cause such..

again nice to here from you...pony is still going strong, Kayla is now PPID , Richie is 7!!! 
Julie
Oregon, 06

---In EquineCushings@..., <katmando@...> wrote :

Hi Julie - long time! Nice to see you, but not under these circumstances.
Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
December 2005
Director, ECIR Inc.


paulah@...
 

Hi Julie,
Because you care so much and you know so much about IR, it's hard not to do something.  Because it is not ethical or nice to whack a friend over the head, you might just ask her why not test for IR and rule that out.  If her horse is IR, there is lots of special management she would have to do, so that might appeal to her desire to have a "sick" horse.  I have a friend with a PPID horse that is content with getting the numbers down to 75 and the vet suggested to reduce the Prascend to 1 mg/day now that the numbers are lower.  I stopped getting myself upset about it.  I gave her the information, I explained that PPID is a progressive disease and that Dr. Kellon recommends getting the number in the mid range and that dropping the dose before the seasonal rise was putting her horse at even higher risk.  It's not my horse, I have no control.  
Put your energy into the things over which you have control.  Pony's coat looks great!  You can use up your excess energy getting those feet trimmed!
;o)   
I always enjoy reading your posts Julie!  Keep up the good work!

PS  If you can get your vet to do what you want and the vet is competent, you might want to keep her.  You already know not to listen to her advice!

Paula  (Cory IR and Onyx no ECIR) in Bucks County, PA, USA

EC 2014     NCRplus2011         

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Paula_Cory/

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---In EquineCushings@..., <bigwhitevan2002@...> wrote :

Hello,

This may be a slight rant , I have been attempting to help a friend who has had trouble with her mare for over a year now, she is a 4 year old paint.


... I think she likes having a 'sick ' horse for all the attention.... I dunno I am just irritated by it all, anyone have any similar experiences with friends? and do you just walk away? 


I am seriously so annoyed I might stop using this VET.


Julie

Oregon 06

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>This may be a slight rant , I have been attempting to help a friend who has had trouble with her mare for over a year now, she is a 4 year old paint. 
her symptoms : cresty neck, fat pads, over weight, trips easily, unwilling to move, sore hind end often very contracted hindquarter muscles. lays down alot.. 


Julie,
At the risk of making the mods unhappy,  I am wondering if the paint mare has PSSM (aka EPSM) from low selenium plus  IR as evidenced from the fat pads, crest, etc? Has she been tested for PSSM with a muscle biopsy and DNA plus selenium and vit E levels? 
 
Many years ago my daughter's mare, Lyric,  was found to be allergic to almost all hay BUT Timothy hay.  Most of the Timothy available in southern California is grown in your area of the country and is deficient in selenium.  You know this, but I did not and my vet did not educate me.  Fast forward almost a whole year and poor Lyric had a horrific episode of tying up with elevated liver enzymes for over 3 months.  Muscle biopsy found many inclusion bodies indicative of PSSM. But DNA was negative for the known genetic markers of PSSM.   Her selenium level was less than 10 (normal per testing lab is greater than 25).  Lack of selenium can cause PSSM and hind end weakness/tying up. 

One thing that Lyric had before her PSSM diagnosis was rock hard hind quarter muscles.  Once her selenium and vit E levels were normalized the muscles softened.  We had thought the hard butt was from exercise and using it. 

Several years later my mare, Jazzi had several episodes of strange hind end weakness.  Her musculature was normal to the touch. This was before her IR diagnosis.  At that time Jazzi was on half local bermuda and Timothy hay diet.  She was doing both endurance and competitive trail (lots of muscle contractions).  Addition of selenium and vit E to Jazzi's diet fixed the strange hind end weakness.  

 My vet teaches that a horse need 5 mg of selenium with 5,000IU of vit E per day.  A hard working horse (lots of muscle contractions) will need more selenium and E. 

The paint mare could have PSSM partially masked by the a)  large amounts of vit E she is receiving and b) small amounts of selenium in the California Trace PLUS being insulin resistant with laminitis. 

Here is some info on PSSM/EPSM (Dr Kellon is quoted in it and a low sugar/starch diet is recommended too):

And here is a link to Dr Valberg's web site.  Muscle biopsy and DNA analysis go to her:

I may be totally off base with this, but having walked this path the story of the paint looked so familiar to me.  I hope this helps in some way. 

Nancy and Jazzi

San Diego County

March 2013

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/echistory7/files/Nancy%20Reed/






bigwhitevan2002
 


Hi Nancy,


just a quick answer for you is yes, she had the biopsy and the DNA test all came back negative, the vet still has her on the high VIT  E dosing, but nothing about selenium, so she is just getting the 2mg in the cal trace which is minimal, as she is feeding the same hay as me and it tested very low in selenium. 


I will go with the idea of trying for getting an insulin test and see if they will test her selenium levels also   ==,hopefully my friend will consider this..I hope we can find out what is wrong with this horse, she is related to my IR/PPID mare not closely but have the same Paint lines...


sorry for the off topicness....moderators thanks for indulging me..


Julie

and pony in Oregon

06





>>>>>>>>>Julie,
??????????At the risk of making the mods unhappy,  I am wondering if the paint mare has PSSM (aka EPSM) from low selenium plus  IR as evidenced from the fat pads, crest, etc? Has she been tested for PSSM with a muscle biopsy and DNA plus selenium and vit E levels? 

The paint mare could have PSSM partially masked by the a)  large amounts of vit E she is receiving and b) small amounts of selenium in the California Trace PLUS being insulin resistant with laminitis. 

Here is some info on PSSM/EPSM (Dr Kellon is quoted in it and a low sugar/starch diet is recommended too):

And here is a link to Dr Valberg's web site.  Muscle biopsy and DNA analysis go to her:

I may be totally off base with this, but having walked this path the story of the paint looked so familiar to me.  I hope this helps in some way. 






 


bigwhitevan2002
 

Just wanted to post one last time on this offtopicness,

did talk to  my Bo / friend about her horse and the possibility of sub-clinical laminitis, and looking at her insulin,etc, explained about insulin/glucose ratios, maybe testing her selinium levels, and what sub-clinical meant....and was met with a firm " No No No its not her feet her feet are fine, Vet says nothing wrong with her feet, but today its her hips, they are stiff and hot, and all blood  work came back fine"

 I explained that her hips  could be from her keeping her weight off her front feet due to underlying pain.." NO her feet are good, but after her trim on Monday she came of off on her left side the  vet noticed" !!!!,   
 (  incidentally she had a bone scan done on hips  two months ago as well as ultrasound and a huge needle injection of Legend or something similar, nothing was found amiss--- she also had the test where you exersise them and then take some blood or muscle tissue or something)

Is there such thing as Muncheons syndrome by proxy equine? .

..I guess I could address it with the vet next time I see her...but just don't feel like it anymore, will just shrug it off and go about my life.

anyway I am done worrying about it, i will just pet the pretty mare on the head and tell her I am sorry, or try not to go up to the big barn at all....

Thanks again moderators for indulging my need to vent....

Julie
irritated in Oregon.
06







>>>>just a quick answer for you is yes, she had the biopsy and the DNA test all came back negative, the vet 



>>>>The paint mare could have PSSM partially masked by the a)  large amounts of vit E she is receiving and b) small amounts of selenium in the California Trace PLUS being insulin resistant with laminitis.