Date
1 - 16 of 16
Possible early PPID symptoms
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paulah@...
My other Morgan gelding Onyx has me wondering if he is developing early PPID symptoms. He is 13 YO, has had runny eyes off and on for the four years that I have owned him. The vet says he eyes look fine, no sign of uveitis, Last winter he lost weight and his topline until he started getting 10.3% ESC + starch hay, which is the first hay he has ever cleaned up. His weight is now pretty ideal. He shed his coat a little late and never lost all of the long facial hairs, even now there are some, not many. His coat is shiny. Now I am looking at his crest and it seems to be larger. He is working with his head lower, so it is possible that he is just losing his inverted neck that he came with when I adopted him four years ago. I had ACTH and insulin done on him in 2011 and April 2014 and numbers were normal. When I read the symptoms of PPID, it seems like it doesn't fit him, so I am not sure. I am wondering about testing him again in September. Does that make sense? If so, do I need the whole panel (ACTH, insulin, glucose, leptin) or will ACTH by itself tell me what I need to know? He doesn't act like an IR horse, eats some of his hay, naps, goes back and eats more. He is a high energy, opinionated and somewhat cranky horse, although very sweet with me. He is limited to 45 to 60 minutes of pasture in the morning because my other horse Cory is IR and has to go out with a blocked muzzle. Case History link is below. Thanks! Paula (Cory IR and Onyx) in Bucks County, PA, USA EC 2014 NCRplus2011
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Paula_Onyx/ |
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Chanda
Morgans are the poster child for IR (insulin resistance), he is likely IR and that is probably why he responded to well to the low s/s hay. Like so many things, they don't all follow the rules, and while his symptoms might not be typical, that doesn't mean he isn't IR. I'd go for the blood tests for IR, so I believe that's glucose, insulin and leptin. I'm sure someone with more experience than me will let us know if I've steered you wrong. Chanda MT 9/04 |
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Lavinia Fiscaletti
Hi Paula, Thanks for putting up the case history. The ACTH of 30.7 in April is on the high side of normal at a time when ACTH is at it's lowest point. It is a jump from the last result you had in 4/11 that was 22.1. That is a red flag that things may be changing. His insulin number has more than doubled from the 2011 number. When you plug it into the IR calculator he is compensated IR, on the cusp of being severe IR. See the formula here: Just because the numbers fall within the lab's normal ranges does not mean things are fine. Normal does not necessarily equal healthy/fine. If it is in the finances, I would definitely suggest rechecking the ACTH in Sept. Need to get insulin/glucose/leptin to be able to see the whole picture rather than just a part of it. The relationship of the insulin to the glucose is an important puzzle piece and the leptin tells you more about what Onyx's baseline metabolism is. A crest is a symptom of IR and is not the same as muscling changes due to working properly. An IR horse can be underweight and still have a crest. Runny eyes can be a symptom of IR. The change in shedding and the long guard hairs remaining could be PPID signs. Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut Jan 05, RI EC Support Team |
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>>My other Morgan gelding Onyx has me wondering if he is developing early PPID symptoms... He shed his coat a little late and never lost all of the long facial hairs, even now there are some, not many. His coat is shiny. Now I am looking at his crest and it seems to be larger.... I had ACTH and insulin done on him in 2011 and April 2014 and numbers were normal... When I read the symptoms of PPID, it seems like it doesn't fit him, so I am not sure.
My 23 year old Morgan mare (controlled IR for the most part) did not have the typical symptoms of PPID, and so I delayed in testing/medicating a bit too long. Her typically long winter coat was getting slightly longer, and in 2013, she took longer to shed out, and some longer hairs remained on her neck. In May 2013, her ACTH was 35 (top of "normal", but I thought this higher ACTH was due to discomfort rather than an accurate reading. In Dec. 2013, her winter coat was so long, it was clear she was either PPID or werewolf. Her crest and eye bulges were larger. In January 2014, she tested at 50, so that 35 back in May 2013 was a true reading and was indeed an indication she had PPID and it was progressing. What threw me off was that she did not have most of the symptoms they list for PPID (and some being in denial). And, I took her slowing down as a sign of aging rather than PPID. Her coat remained mostly shiny (albeit longer/wavey); most other things seemed unchanged. But a dullness was descending, and it was not, I would eventually discover, from aging. Once she was treated for PPID, her brightness returned, energy recovered, and her summer coat shed shorter than it had it years and became dappled & incredibly shiny. In hindsight, I should have tested her again in Aug/Sep 2013 to see where she was going. I regret not knowing and treating her 6 months earlier, but grateful she was able to rebound. I think it's important to not count on seeing multiple symptoms - I used it as a reason to not act sooner. Best of luck, Claudia & Silhouette 2014 California https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Claudia%20%26%20Silhouette/ |
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paulah@...
Thanks, Lavinia. Sorry, I should have figured that out.
If he is actually compensated IR, then that 45 minutes of grass in the morning is probably not safe either... Is testing the ACTH in August too early? I don't want to wait until September to get the IR blood work done. Well, one good thing, I already have one IR horse (Cory), so my horse care routine is not going to change much. Onyx will have to wear a blocked muzzle as well, poor guy! I hope Onyx can safely eat the 10.3% s/s hay that Cory cannot, otherwise I will be back to soaking hay as I still have two tons of that hay and he will not touch Cory's 6% s/s hay, ever! --Paula, Onyx and Cory (IR) ---In EquineCushings@..., <shilohmom@...> wrote : Hi Paula, Just because the numbers fall within the lab's normal ranges does not mean things are fine. Normal does not necessarily equal healthy/fine. If it is in the finances, I would definitely suggest rechecking the ACTH in Sept. Need to get insulin/glucose/leptin to be able to see the whole picture rather than just a part of it. The relationship of the insulin to the glucose is an important puzzle piece and the leptin tells you more about what Onyx's baseline metabolism is. Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut Jan 05, RI EC Support Team |
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paulah@...
---In EquineCushings@..., <claudiagoodman22@...> wrote : Hi Chandra and Claudia, Thanks for sharing your perspective. I am at the point of disbelief, denial and dismay, and for some reason this is hitting me harder than my other horse Cory's diagnosis. We'll run the full panel in September and see where we stand at that point. Thanks again, --Paula In hindsight, I should have tested her again in Aug/Sep 2013 to see where she was going. I regret not knowing and treating her 6 months earlier, but grateful she was able to rebound. I think it's important to not count on seeing multiple symptoms - I used it as a reason to not act sooner. Best of luck, Claudia & Silhouette 2014 California https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Claudia%20%26%20Silhouette/ |
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Chanda
I understand the denial, I've been there. It's easy not to believe it, and for some reason that second horse diagnosed is harder to deal with or believe than the first; I don't know why. Chanda MT 9/04 |
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Hi Paula
Your numbers from April show an elevated insulin that I would be concerned about. If it was very cold that day it could also have raised his insulin. His goopy eyes are a symptom of IR and of PPID. Your ACTH is high normal. He my or may not be PPID. Both my horses - one metabolic, one not - took forever to shed out this year. If you can, I would get combined ACTH, leptin, insulin ($60.00 Cornell cost last time I checked) and serum glucose ($8.00 last time I checked) Make sure you do not test him fasted. It will skew results. Other ideas as for loosing weight: If he was not gettingenough hay, well, he'd loose weight. He may like this new hay better because of the taste. Is it higher in sugar or starch than the last batch? Fiber content - ADF and NDF - could also affect his wanting to eat the old hay, if it was later cut and more stemmy. Assume he is dewormed regularly and his teeth are up to snuff. When you next do your minerals I would make sure your CA:Mag and trace mineral ratios are nice and tight. It's good you are working him. If you have no foot symptoms, no rings, nice tight trim and growth, I would enjoy the rest of the summer and test late August or so. Nancy C in NH ECIR Moderator 2003 Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot. www.ECIRhorse.org Check out the FACTS on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.
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paulah@...
Hi Nancy, Thanks, I will plan on getting the four tests done as you suggest. His current hay is very palatable, not high starch (about 1%) but 10.3% s/s. Even when I soaked it and the s/s dropped almost half, it still is the most palatable hay I have purchased. It is also very well balanced, requiring the least correction in my mineral mix that I have done in three and a half years. He is incredibly picky about hay. He does not like coarse hay and will race around his paddock, throwing a hissy fit if he doesn't like the hay. He is rather dramatic. His teeth are done once a year and there is no evidence of quidding or difficulty chewing. My biggest concern now that I have pulled him off the grass altogether is that he doesn't drink enough. He is getting 3 Tbsp of salt per day because if I give him less, he starts to develop an impaction. Eating grass really helps with that but don't want to risk laminitis. He does fine in the winter with our heated stock tank, but I have to keep an eye on him from May through September. What can I do to help him drink more? Thanks, --Paula ---In EquineCushings@..., <threecatfarm@...> wrote : Hi Paula If you can, I would get combined ACTH, leptin, insulin ($60.00 Cornell cost last time I checked) and serum glucose ($8.00 last time I checked) Make sure you do not test him fasted. It will skew results. Other ideas as for loosing weight: If he was not gettingenough hay, well, he'd loose weight. He may like this new hay better because of the taste. Is it higher in sugar or starch than the last batch? Fiber content - ADF and NDF - could also affect his wanting to eat the old hay, if it was later cut and more stemmy. Nancy C in NH ECIR Moderator 2003 |
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Hi Paula
I would be concerned about 9% sugar as potentially causing his rise in neck crest. I know we use 10% or lower as a rule of thumb, but some horses cannot tolerate ESC getting close to 10%. My Morgan gelding is one of them. Soaking the hay (I know!) will get more water into him. Some folks I think have tried using additives like ACV or other sugar-free stuff to enhance intake. If you try this, make sure you give him both plain and amended water while you assess what he like, if anything. Slat is the best way to make them drink more. I use Skodes slat squares in times of extreme heat and cold. They are expensive though and I keep hoping I will find the time to figure out how to make my own. They work really well. Nancy C in NH ECIR Moderator 2003 Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot. www.ECIRhorse.org Check out the FACTS on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/equine-cushing-s-and-insulin-resistance-group-inc ---In EquineCushings@..., <paulah@...> wrote : Hi Nancy, Thanks, I will plan on getting the four tests done as you suggest. His current hay is very palatable, not high starch (about 1%) but 10.3% s/s. Even when I soaked it and the s/s dropped almost half, it still is the most palatable hay I have purchased. |
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alikern@...
why do you suggest late August?
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palomino.1982@...
For more information on the seasonal rise and recommended testing, here is a link on ECIRHorse.org
Seasonal Rise
Susan EC Primary Response SD,CA 2007 |
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Hi Staralightrun
We want to make sure we are on top of any needed pergolide increase before the seasonal rise. As Susan suggested there is more info on ecirhorse.org - see both seasonal rise and pergolide pages. An older graph from Liphook showing how potentially the rise can occur is in our files. Click on the FILES link and put Liphook in the search box window at the top of your screen to access the doc with the graph. https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files Nancy C in NH ECIR Moderator 2003 Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot. www.ECIRhorse.org Check out the FACTS on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/equine-cushing-s-and-insulin-resistance-group-inc ---In EquineCushings@..., <alikern@...> wrote : why do you suggest late August? |
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PS......
Don't for get to sign your posts with name, location and date of joining the group. Thanks! Nancy C in NH ECIR Moderator 2003 Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot. www.ECIRhorse.org Check out the FACTS on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.
---In EquineCushings@..., <alikern@...> wrote : why do you suggest late August? |
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paulah@...
Update: Onyx's tests result indicate normal ACTH (20, normal 9 to 35), so we will just work on the IR management and continue to test ACTH. The insulin and glucose indicated he was compensated but he got foot sore on the 10.3% timothy/brome two weeks later. Symptoms trump test results. I soaked that hay and he immediately got much more comfortable. He just started getting a mixture of that hay unsoaked with orchard grass (5.3%). I have to mix as he will not eat the 5.3% alone...and I cannot soak any more hay. I will monitor to make sure he can handle that combo. His Leptin value was oddly high (9.5 on a scale of 1 to 4). He is not the hay hoover my other horse Cory is, so I wasn't sure what to make of that. Thanks for the hay mixing suggestions. It takes more time than tossing hay into a hay pillow but a whole lot less time and body strain than soaking hay (for two horses!). Paula with Cory (IR) and Onyx (IR) in Bucks County, PA, USA EC 2014 NCRplus2011 https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Paula_Cory/ https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/275503778 https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Paula_Onyx/ ---In EquineCushings@..., <shilohmom@...> wrote : A crest is a symptom of IR and is not the same as muscling changes due to working properly. An IR horse can be underweight and still have a crest. Runny eyes can be a symptom of IR. The change in shedding and the long guard hairs remaining could be PPID signs. Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut Jan 05, RI EC Support Team |
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Teri
I know a gal who has a horse (Arab x Welsh) that is normal weight with a big crest and fat pads over his rump. I have urged her repeatedly to have him tested. She says her vet tells her he isn't IR because he isn't overweight. Sigh... Stormy is very thin, never had a crest or fat pads anywhere, and severe IR. Only symptom was recurrent laminitis. Teri and Stormy Indy 2012 A crest is a symptom of IR and is not the same as muscling changes due to working properly. An IR horse can be underweight and still have a crest. Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut Jan 05, RI EC Support Team |
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