2 crippled ponies.Please help.


Hannah T
 

Dear group,
Apologies in advance, but I am very new to this yahoo group and am not sure how all of the controls work/where to post things.  I have one horse with IR and Cushings, and a pony with IR. No idea what the triggers are. But they both developed it within 2months of each other at a new yard here in the UK. Your group was recommended to me, and I am asking for your help please because even though I am trying my best, I don't have it under control yet. I am just beside myself with worry.  Hopefully I will be able to find any replies to this message (have not worked that out yet). I am not sure how to add a case history yet.
Many thanks,
Hannah



Mandy Woods
 

Hi Hannah,
Welcome to the list.   You’ll catch on pretty soon.   Our philosophy is really common sense.    Short version is DDT/E.   You will see that a lot here!   You must do all 4 together to get optimum results.    Before we can give  you any advice on your ponies,  we need to know more about them.   If you would start a file on each of them in the ECH8 file......it will paint a bigger picture of their life.   The details we want!   I’ll send you an invite to expedite your work.    Please answer the questionniare.   
 
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/info
 
DDT/E = DIAGNOSIS, DIET,  TRIM  and EXERCISE.  
 
You know what IR and PPID aka Cushings is.   How were your two DIAGNOSED?    We need the lab name,  the unit of measure, the value and the lab normal range.   We are going into the seasonal rise now so their ACTH value may be higher.    Do NOT fast your ponies for these tests.  Keep soaked/drained grass hay in front of them the night before and the day of the test.   The tests we need are ACTH for Cushings and Insulin/Glucose for IR.  Is anyone in the UK doing LEPTIN tests yet?     When you get the values back,  post them to the list,  in your ECH8 files  and enter them in the calculator so you can see the ratios yourself.    Cushings is treated with pergolide.  IR is managed by DIET.
 
DIET is  low sugar/starch/fat forage with minerals balanced to its assay.   You can use  www.equi-analytical.com to test hay.  There is a file for UK members to help you source feeds.   I am not familiar with the different feeds you have.   I know speedibeet is excellent if you rinse and soak it.  It has high iron but rinsing it  removes some some of the iron.  If your ponies are on pasture  we recommend putting them on a drylot.   Do you have access to grass hay?  If you soak this hay (not lucerne) you can reduce the sugar up to 30%.  Soak it for one hour in cold water.  Pour the water where they cant get to it.   The Temporary Emergency DIET is this hay,  with speedibeet as a carrier for your minerals ( vitaminE, isalt, magnesium oxide and freshly ground flax seed).   The recipe is in the START HERE file and at  www.ecirhorse.org     Your goal is to balanced their  minerals to their hay.   Its most possible the trigger was eating pasture grass for the IR pony and uncontrolled ACTH for the Cushings pony.    How much pergolide are you giving? 
 
TRIM is a balanced foot with heels lowered and toes backed from the top.  Boots and pads if needed.   Let them move at liberty in the drylot.   Get xrays of their feet.   Take photos of their feet too.  Post all of this in ECH8  and send us the link to your case history.
 
EXERCISE is great if they are able.  Never force a laminitic pony to move.  If hand walking is all you can do then that’s where you start.  Long straight lines.......no lunging, no pivoting ...just sweeping wide turns. 
 
Hannah,  take a deep breath for yourself!   We’ll help you get this sorted out and watch your ponies improve.   Take it one day at a time.  

Here are some links you’ll needs.   Start a journal and ask questions. 
 
 
http://www.freil.com/~mlf/IR/ir.html        This is the calculator.  Just enter your numbers and make sure the units are correct.
 
 
http://www.softrideboots.com/1/      Super rehab boots.   You probably have something similar in the UK
 
 
www.equi-analytical.com   You can send hay samples here.  Get the Trainer # 603 for 54$ USD
 
 
http://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/good-hoof-photos.html    How to take great hoof photos.
 
 
www.ecirhorse.org    This site will answer most of your questions!
 
 
Mandy in VA
EC Primary Response
OCT 2003
 
 


Hannah T
 

Thankyou so much Mandy. I will fill in the case histories now.
Hannah


Hannah T
 

Hi Mandy,

Case histories are now uploaded:

Yahoo! Groups

 

Not sure why the link is showing an error?

It's under Hannah:

Yahoo! Groups

 



Also, why do you NOT fast horses prior to the insulin test? It was recommended that I did fast them. But in all honesty they did have some soaked hay in the morning otherwise they would have come through the stable doors.


Hannah T
 

Hi Mandy,

Here is the link to my case histories:

Yahoo! Groups

 

It's in there but for some reason it is showing as an error above when I copy and paste it?
Also, why do you NOT fast horses for an insulin test? My vet insisted that I fasted my two for the test. But in all honesty it didnt seem right to me so I gave them their usual ration of soaked hay first thing in the morning (they would have come through the stable doors if they didn't have something to munch on).
Hannah


Lorna Cane
 




Hi Hannah,

Here is the link to your case history:

Whenever you post a message please sign your name,location,date of joining group,and add this link,so that the volunteers can find your information(thanks for uploading it!) quickly,in order to help.


  Lorna in Ontario,Canada

ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc





Hannah T
 


Hannah T
 


Mandy Woods
 

Hannah,
We do not fast horses for bloodwork because horses are trickle eaters.  Humans eat ‘meals’.   Horses are designed to graze 24/7 .   We recommend feeding low s/s hay before testing to see how their system handles the feed.   Both of your ponies are IR.   Ziggy is also PPID.  Vitex will help with Cushings symptoms but not control the ACTH output.    Ziggy needs to be on Pergolide.    We are just starting the seasonal rise so this should be started this week.   IF both are ‘allergic’ to flax then have you tried CHIA?
 
You are soaking your hay too long.   We recommend one hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water.  
 
Are you giving any loose iodized table salt?  A block of salt is not sufficient for horses.  They  have smooth tongues so licking all day wont give them enough salt.   Give Jaffa 2 TBS a day of isalt.  Ziggy needs 2 tsp a day.  Build up to these amounts.
Get some Greedy Pony small mesh hay nets to feed from.  These have one inch holes and are fantastic for slowing down the ravenous eater.   Weigh their hay in a net dry,  then soak for one hour.   Feed 2% their  body weight a day in hay.
 
Your long range goal is to have your hay analyzed and the minerals balanced to that assay.  Formula 4 feet should be temporary  like our Temporary Emergency DIET.   http://www.laminitisclinic.com/formula4feet.htm    You could add Vitamin E to their diets since they are not grazing.    
 
Thank you for getting your CH’s and xrays up so quickly.   I think reducing the soaking time to one hour and using speedibeet as a carrier for the mineals will help them.  NO grazing!  No grains.  No treats,  supplements etc.
 
And here is your link to your CH’s.
 
Mandy in VA
EC Primary Response
OCT 2003
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Hannah T
 

Hi Mandy,
I am so glad I joined this group because you are talking me through everything which will help me find the triggers. :)
The pergolide for Ziggy will arrive this coming week hopefully (the vets here live over an hour away so they send it in the post). 
I agree regarding the non fasting. Can I ask why you only soak your hay for an hour/half an hour? Is this very important if they are also being fed a good vit/min supply to compensate for any minerals lost in the soaked hay? I am not sure what CHIA is, so will look that up. Thankyou.
I will start them both on the iodized table salt. Should I stop the salt blocks or give them both blocks and table salt?
They both get their hay in 2(one inside the other) greedy pony mesh nets.
They are currently being fed 1.5% in hay of their body weight as they were putting on weight slightly on 2% of body weight (with the possibility that someone else at the stables keeps slipping them some food).
I will get the hay sent off to be analysed this week and put the results in my case history. 
I put them both on Formula for Feet because of the issues of giving them both flax (F4F has omega 3,magnesium, carbonate, vit E, glucose tolerance factor in etc), and the fact they were putting weight on whilst they were getting speedibeet. Because of the weight gain, I am worried about putting speedibeet back in their diets. It was recommended to me that they could stay on Formula for Feet permanently as it is a good all round vit/min supply anyway. What are your thoughts on this?


Mandy Woods
 

Hannah,
Soaking hay for an hour is sufficient because once the water becomes saturated with the sugar it has no place to absorb any more.   Pour the water off and start with clean water if you feel you can get more sugar soaked out.  Minerals do not seem to move much.  
 
I give both white salt block (for their amusement) and loose I salt for eating in the bucket feed.
 
Your weights are probably more accurate  so feeding 1.5 % is a good amount to feed. 
 
The Formula 4 Feet is a good product BUT it does not balance your hay.  When you get the analysis back  post it in your CH so the ladies who are trained to balance minerals can advise you.   Then you will have the ‘perfect diet’. 
 
Vitamin E needs to be given with a hint of oil for proper absorption.   We like the natural gel caps in soy oil.  It’s a very small amount of oil.   Is the E in F4F dry?
 
The Temporary Emergency DIET is in the START HERE file and at  www.ecirhorse.org
 
Read about this test we recommend at  www.equi-analytical.com   the Trainer # 603.     IF your hay lab has the same test (minerals) then use your lab.  Our lab will test hay from the UK.
 
You are on a roll!    Good job!!!
 
Mandy in VA
EC Primary Response
OCT 2003
 
 


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Hannah,


Thanks for getting the xrays and case histories up - it helps us enormously. It makes it easier for everyone to see your photos/xrays if they are put into the Photos section of the ECHistory8 group instead of in your case history file due to the way Yahoo organizes pictures. I have made an album for Zig and one for Jaff and moved their xrays to those albums. You can continue to add any additional pictures/xrays there for the future. Here are the links for those:


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/286128498


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1291696720


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team






 





Hannah T
 

Hi,
Great advice, thankyou.  Yes the vit E in F4F is dry. I can go and find some soy oil gel capsules to add to it. I just started adding the iodinized table salt this eve.
Thanks


Hannah T
 


Mandy Woods
 

 Hannah,
Would you take photos of Ziggy and Jaff’s feet and post them?   Here’s a link on how we like to see photos.    http://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/good-hoof-photos.html 
 
Mandy in VA
 


Hannah T
 

Hi Mandy,

Ok I will have a go at this tomorrow with them both.

Hannah,Uk,1/8/14

Yahoo! Groups

 


Hannah T
 

Hi again group,hi Mandy,
I haven't managed to take the hoof photos yet. It's proving to be quite difficult. I should have someone to help hold the feet up tomorrow so I will try again.
Ziggy was started on pergolide 3 days ago.  1mg pill per day. Previous to starting them, he was very lethargic and depressed. Within 3 days he have become almost completely different and I am now very concerned.
He has always been an excellent eater and loves his food, especially his hard feed. In the last 3 days he has been eating gradually less and less. This eve he didn't want his hard feed at all, and is only picking at his hay slightly. Also,his character has changed. He doesn't seem very lethargic and has gone very spooky and skittish. I am not sure if pergolide causes neurological signs, but this eve he was acting very strange. Every time he put his head outside the stable door, he was spooking and darting back into the stable as if something just hit him or he couldn't see very well. He did it several times.Has anyone else had worrying signs like this? I cannot get my vet on the phone this eve but plan to call her tomorrow morning. Do you think I should stop giving him his pergolide for a few days and gradually re-introduce it at a lower dose?


Hannah T
 

I think I am having one of those totally overwhelmed moments with this. Trying to take deep breaths!


Lorna Cane
 


>I think I am having one of those totally overwhelmed moments with this. Trying to take deep breaths!

Please help your volunteers help you by signing your posts.
And do keep breathing.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.igive.com/welcome/warmwelcome.cfm?c=65676

 



Mandy Woods
 

Hi Hannah,
You are experiencing the pergolide veil with Ziggy starting pergolide.   You need to taper on.  You can also give a product called APF  by  www.auburnlabs.com   to help him through the adjustment period.    To taper on,  break the pill into halves.   Put one  half in a syringe (3cc) of water,  let it melt and shake it up.   Give him one half the liquid.  Store the other half in the frig. This will give him .50 mg on day 2.....do this again until the 1 mg pill is in him.    Then when you have finished this pill  give half a pill at a time until you work up to one full mg a day.   You should avoid the veil by doing this. I would decrease the pill to one quarter tomorrow.  This would be better than stopping abruptly.    My horse responded by being very spacey.  He acted like he didn’t know where he was, he went off his feed as well.  His veil disappeared on its own .   Please try to give the pill at the same time every day.   I don’t know if his spooking is directly related to this.   I think you could play it safe and keep him in for a few days to get the medication in him followed by some food!
 
Its really very important ponies eat.  Try to get some speedibeet in him or chopped up hay – whatever combination he will eat.  Have  you read at the Laminitis Trust for some feeds that are safe for IR?  
 
And you can have something stronger than a cup of tea to get you through all this!    If I was closer I’d meet you at the PUB.  Take the photos when you can.
 
Mandy in VA
EC Primary Response
OCT 2003