Date
1 - 11 of 11
Hoof pics...please comment?
kansteen5545@...
Hi Linda -
Thanks for your observation. That makes sense, as I never touch the sole except to scrape off obviously loose stuff. And this summer my mare has been standing around more and not walking so much - and - has been in a moister pen - so the sole may not have worn as it has in the past in a dry pen. It doesn't really look like seedy toe or at least not like the pictures I have seen of it on line.
It never fails to amaze me how much there is to be learned about this stuff!
Karen
Scarborough,ME
May 2014
---- "PapBallou@... wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Thanks for your observation. That makes sense, as I never touch the sole except to scrape off obviously loose stuff. And this summer my mare has been standing around more and not walking so much - and - has been in a moister pen - so the sole may not have worn as it has in the past in a dry pen. It doesn't really look like seedy toe or at least not like the pictures I have seen of it on line.
It never fails to amaze me how much there is to be learned about this stuff!
Karen
Scarborough,ME
May 2014
---- "PapBallou@... wrote:
Hi -
Too me it appears that your horse has/had some length of wall and callused sole that was above the natural end of the white line...making for a little valley between callus and wall with the WL a few millimeters below. The degradation of the insensitive lamina in this scenario, or remnants of WL still attached to the insensitive laminia can appear to be unhealthy.>
This little 'valley of the WL' can be influenced by how moist the walls/callus is. If plumped up, it may be more obvious. In desert conditions such as where I live, you rarely see it since everything is so desiccated and wall/WL/callus are more of a 'single uni' than three separate structures.
Lavinia Fiscaletti
Hi Kathy,
This is the second time I'm trying to post this as yahoo ate the last response : (
I added some mark-ups to Dancer's album here:
You are correct that his toes are long - all of them. He has what is called High/Low syndrome where one foot is taller and boxier while the other is flatter, wider and more underrun. This stems from unequal weight bearing on the limbs and gets exacerbated when the boxier foot gets dubbed a "club" foot and then is trimmed as such while the flatter foot is allowed to continue to stretch and deform under the disproportionate weight load it carries. Xrays of the boxier foot tend to show that the heels are higher than is correct for the internal structures while the low foot shows a excessively long toe, thin sole and ground parallel to negative plane coffin bone.The fix is to address the trim issues as well as find and remove the cause of the altered stance. The rears have several "event" lines growing out and there are corresponding wall flares with each.
LF Lateral: This is the Low foot. The green line follows the angle of the new growth. The greyish "erased" areas are to give you an idea of what the foot would look like with the toe backed. The toe should be backed to shorten it horizontally but nothing gets removed from the bottom. This is a foot in transition and as such will look rather "odd". During rehab you need to toss out the mental picture you have of a normal hoof as rehab feet aren't normal. They need to have a blueprint made for them to grow into so they can become fully functional once more. Rasping of the dorsal wall to make it look nice will only weaken an already compromised structure.
LF Sole: Blue line is where to back the toe to. The red line is the DO NOT LOWER WALL HEIGHT HERE zone. These are the pillars which protect the leading edge of the coffin bone. The orange chevron is about where the true tip of the frog is. The rest is dead frog that has been pulled forward, conveyor belt style, by the long toes and it distorts the true proportions of the foot. The walls are flaring and should be beveled to help reduce the ground pressure until they can grow in with healthier connections. Take care not to lower them in the process as the foot is already depth compromised.
RF Lateral: This is the High foot: Green line follows the new angle of growth. Blue is where to back it to. Orange is where to drop the heels. Red is the DO NOT LOWER zone.
RR Sole: The yellow line is where to back the toe to. There appears to be a crack at 12 0'clock that will disappear once the toe is brought back. Orange highlights the wall flares on the medial side but they are present on both sides. Should bevel them to relieve ground pressure until they have grown out healthy connections. The purple is where the heel buttresses are - medial one appears to be further forward, which would go along with more flaring along the medial wall. Need to bring them level with each other and lined up with the widest part of the frog.
Would recommend he be in boots and pads/packing to make him comfortable so that he walks with a heel first landing at all times. Will need to experiment to find what combination he finds the most beneficial.
Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team
PapBallou@...
Hi -
---In EquineCushings@..., <kansteen5545@...> wrote :
Too me it appears that your horse has/had some length of wall and calluesd sole that was above the natural end of the white line...making for a little valley between callus and wall with the WL a few millimeters below. The degradation of the insensitive lamina in this scenario, or remnants of WL still attached to the insensitive laminia can appear to be unhealthy.
Seedy toe, or white line disease, affects the living tissue above the WL. The WL only exists as an attachment between sole and wall, so is therefore about 1 centimeter in length...maybe 2-3 millimeters in width. You would need to explore through what you think is unhealthy horn to see how high up it goes...if indeed into the lamina to rule in/out seedy toe.
This little 'valley of the WL' can be influenced by how moist the walls/callus is. If plumped up, it may be more obvious. In desert conditions such as where I live, you rarely see it since everything is so desiccated and wall/WL/callus are more of a 'single uni' than three separate structures.
I agree with the Lavinia - the current new trim looks pretty good! ;-) Lucky 30 y/o mare you've got!
Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004
---In EquineCushings@..., <kansteen5545@...> wrote :
ion - that means another year from this past May before she's ridden - and next year she'll be 30!
If that stuff I'm seeing is not laminar wedge, I don't know what it can be. It looks just like the laminar wedge that grew down after she foundered in 2012 - that soft, cork-like stuff. The thing is - it just appeared in the past month - before that, her white line was real tight all the way around. Could it be Seedy Toe? I've been putting Betadine on it just in case.
If that stuff I'm seeing is not laminar wedge, I don't know what it can be. It looks just like the laminar wedge that grew down after she foundered in 2012 - that soft, cork-like stuff. The thing is - it just appeared in the past month - before that, her white line was real tight all the way around. Could it be Seedy Toe? I've been putting Betadine on it just in case.
kansteen5545@...
Hi Lavinia -
Thanks for the analysis. Mid-May was when my mare had a Laminitic attack - she WAS shifting her weight on her fronts and digital pulses were up - I soaked her feet in ice water and gave her Bute for a few days but perhaps the damage was done. I had been hand grazing her - last year there was no problem - but this year there was an abundance of clover - large, leafy clover and maybe that's what did it - she DID manage to gobble down some of it a few days in a row. I'll keep track of that straighter part of her hoof growing down. Indeed if it was another rotation - that means another year from this past May before she's ridden - and next year she'll be 30!
If that stuff I'm seeing is not laminar wedge, I don't know what it can be. It looks just like the laminar wedge that grew down after she foundered in 2012 - that soft, cork-like stuff. The thing is - it just appeared in the past month - before that, her white line was real tight all the way around. Could it be Seedy Toe? I've been putting Betadine on it just in case. She HAS been standing in manure every day at the new barn as I am the only one who cleans out her stall - and on the three days I work it's not until late afternoon. Would that be enough to cause Seedy Toe? (She's in an in-and-out, but prefers to stand inside to be near her buddies.)
I can bevel the flares from the top and make the other corrections as suggested. I guess I had stopped beveling from the top - I follow Maureen Tierney's method and she always says to do the beveling from the underside. Bars I usually use a dremmel on - but had not before the photos were taken.
I'll keep tweaking the care for my old gal and maybe she'll be around for a few more years. Thanks again.
Karen
Scarborough,ME
May 2014
On Aug 29,
Lavinia wrote an analysis of hoof pics and recommendations in response to a concern re: a laminar wedge.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Thanks for the analysis. Mid-May was when my mare had a Laminitic attack - she WAS shifting her weight on her fronts and digital pulses were up - I soaked her feet in ice water and gave her Bute for a few days but perhaps the damage was done. I had been hand grazing her - last year there was no problem - but this year there was an abundance of clover - large, leafy clover and maybe that's what did it - she DID manage to gobble down some of it a few days in a row. I'll keep track of that straighter part of her hoof growing down. Indeed if it was another rotation - that means another year from this past May before she's ridden - and next year she'll be 30!
If that stuff I'm seeing is not laminar wedge, I don't know what it can be. It looks just like the laminar wedge that grew down after she foundered in 2012 - that soft, cork-like stuff. The thing is - it just appeared in the past month - before that, her white line was real tight all the way around. Could it be Seedy Toe? I've been putting Betadine on it just in case. She HAS been standing in manure every day at the new barn as I am the only one who cleans out her stall - and on the three days I work it's not until late afternoon. Would that be enough to cause Seedy Toe? (She's in an in-and-out, but prefers to stand inside to be near her buddies.)
I can bevel the flares from the top and make the other corrections as suggested. I guess I had stopped beveling from the top - I follow Maureen Tierney's method and she always says to do the beveling from the underside. Bars I usually use a dremmel on - but had not before the photos were taken.
I'll keep tweaking the care for my old gal and maybe she'll be around for a few more years. Thanks again.
Karen
Scarborough,ME
May 2014
On Aug 29,
Lavinia wrote an analysis of hoof pics and recommendations in response to a concern re: a laminar wedge.
Hi Karen,
Bay Lady doesn't have a wedge unless her dorsal walls have been rasped thinner continuously for at least the last 9 months, which doesn't appear to be the case. A wedge takes many months to occur as it is something akin to scar tissue that the hoof puts down when the regular laminar connections have failed. It is more disorganized and doesn't maintain as firm a connection to the coffin bone but it is better than no connection at all. Long toes in the horizontal plane, which mechanically pull the connections apart with each step, are big contributors.
Lavinia Fiscaletti
Hi Karen,
Bay Lady doesn't have a wedge unless her dorsal walls have been rasped thinner continuously for at least the last 9 months, which doesn't appear to be the case. A wedge takes many months to occur as it is something akin to scar tissue that the hoof puts down when the regular laminar connections have failed. It is more disorganized and doesn't maintain as firm a connection to the coffin bone but it is better than no connection at all. Long toes in the horizontal plane, which mechanically pull the connections apart with each step, are big contributors.
So called "founder rings" are disruptions in the hoof wall growth due to a variety of factors. Dietary changes - both good and bad; illness; trimming changes; seasonal weather changes; rotation/founder will all affect the growth cycle and can appear as a visible change in the growth rings in the hoof wall. You are correct that there do not appear to be any in her walls.
The newest hoof growth is coming in at a slightly steeper angle than the previous growth, which tells you something happened in approximately the last 2 months that resulted in a change in the coffin bone's relationship to the hoof capsule. Her current trim appears to have her breakover in pretty good alignment with this change so just maintain it until the new wall has grown down to ground level. Obviously the cause needs to be eliminated. With the timing, issues with IR and PPID would be the first things to investigate. Concussion, aided and abetted by less-than-ideal trims, is more likely to be associated with gradual long term sinking so an unlikely source unless there were some extreme conditions that had suddenly occurred.
Her heels could use to keep moving back a tad more, but again are pretty close to where they need to be. Your target is to have the hell buttresses even with the widest part of the frog. If you look at the angle of growth of the horn tubules in the rear of the hoof, they are running somewhat more forward than vertical. I would work on opening the heel/bar triangle just a bit more to facilitate the backing. Use the level of live sole plane in this area to judge when you are at the correct point. In the last photo in the album it appears as if the bar in the heel buttress has been trimmed from the frog side to angle out toward the wall. Any bar removal should be from the top and sole sides only to allow it to stand upright and provide stability and support to the rear of the foot.
Would bevel flares from the top to reduce ground pressure until they have grown out completely but wouldn't recommend lowering the wall height anymore.
Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team
kansteen5545@...
Hi Lavinia -
I was wondering if you could take a look at Bay Lady's hoof pics - I have them all labeled. I am trying to make sense of the laminar wedge that has appeared in the last month. I have seen no founder ring in the past year. The wedge is in both fronts - about 1/8" wide - from the heels to heels. Could this be from concussion? I did trim as suggested.
Thanks
Karen
Scarborough,ME
May 2014
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Karen%20and%20Bay%20Lady/
https://groups.yahoo.com.neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1235401778
I was wondering if you could take a look at Bay Lady's hoof pics - I have them all labeled. I am trying to make sense of the laminar wedge that has appeared in the last month. I have seen no founder ring in the past year. The wedge is in both fronts - about 1/8" wide - from the heels to heels. Could this be from concussion? I did trim as suggested.
Thanks
Karen
Scarborough,ME
May 2014
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Karen%20and%20Bay%20Lady/
https://groups.yahoo.com.neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1235401778
Lavinia Fiscaletti
Hi Karen,
Here is the link to Dancer's hoof pics - they are in the Photos section of ECHistory8:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1126797980
If you look at that RF, the angle of the hoof wall above the abscess blowout area is coming in steeper than the wall below. This is confirmation that there are changes that need to be made to the trim. If you draw a line to the ground that follows this new angle it shows where the toe should be backed up to. The RF is a bit taller and boxier than the LF, a condition called High/Low syndrome. LF needs the toe backed even further than RF. Looks like the rears are a bit under run with the frogs recessed into the soles - is this correct?
I will put up some mark-ups and a better explanation later today.
Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team
Lavinia Fiscaletti
Hi Kathy,
Thanks for adding the pictures - it is really helpful.
I have created an album in the Photos section of ECHistory8 and moved your pictures into it. This enables us to look at all the pictures at once or in succession without having to open and close each one individually. Makes it so much more efficient. Yahoo limits the amount of file space allotted to each group and pictures eat up a lot of file space but they allow virtually unlimited space in the Photos section.
Here is the link to your pictures:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1126797980
Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team
Kathy Shank
I took pics of Dancer's feet and posted them in his file. Advice welcome! These pics are 1 week after the farrier trimmed them.I'm pretty sure you will tell me his toes in the front are long. But could you tell me how to fix that? What else should be done?
The RF has a mark where an abscess blew out. This is a good marker...it was when "the triggers were removed", so I have good tracking of how far his hoof has grown since then.
The RF has a mark where an abscess blew out. This is a good marker...it was when "the triggers were removed", so I have good tracking of how far his hoof has grown since then.
Thanks all!
Kathy and Dancer (IR) in PA
August 2014
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Kathy%20and%20Dancer/Hoof%20pics%208_25_14/