NEW MEMBER


Robin Hardy
 

My name is Robin Hardy.  I live in Tucson, AZ.  I have a 14 year old gelding who has currently been suffering

with laminitis and 10 days ago had tenotomy on both front legs.  This is his 3rd bout with laminitis.  First trouble started in 2008 then 2011. I am seeking help with tests he should have and changes to his current diet as the vets have been no help on this issue.  He is doing well after the surgery, but if I don't figure out the underlying problem, I am afraid he won't make it through it next time.  I am seeking answers. Please help if you have answers in regards to the above.  I have a very good farrier who studies yearly with Dr. Redden.  He currently stopped the surgeon from starting surgery because we did not have the tenotomy shoes in yet.  He has taken his heels down as low as they could go and his palmar degrees were such that the farrier, my vet and a consult with a separate vet all said to do the tenotomy.  I love this horse.  He is my 1st horse.  He is appaloosa/quarter mix. I have x-rays back from 2008 and on.  I also had a venogram done 3 months ago.  He is currently fed grass hay, although I have never had it analyzed, 3 x a day. He gets safe choice special care (2 scoops) mixed with bio sponge, thyro-l, solitude igr, isoxsuprine, remission, and horseshine once daily for lunch.  Please help if possible.  I would be so grateful.  Vets just don't seem to answer the questions I have.  I feel I have a very good farrier who keeps up to date and educated in the field of laminitis.


Thank you,

Robin Hardy



Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Robin,


Welcome to the list. We need to get a bit more information from you in an organized fashion so ask that you join our sister list ECHistory8 and fill out a case history form for your gelding:


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/info


Would also ask you to please upload your xrays, venograms and current hoof pictures to the Photos section of ECHistory8. This will help us help you and your boy more quickly and thoroughly. Any blood work that may have been done or other test results can also be added to your history file. Here is a link for taking good hoof pictures:


http://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/good-hoof-photos.html


We follow a protocol of DDT/E, which is just shorthand for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise. Need to apply all the pieces to get the best results.


DIAGNOSIS: This is thru blood work. We recommend a NON-Fasting sample be drawn and sent overnight to Cornell for Insulin, Glucose and Leptin to test for IR. An ACTH test is used to diagnose PPID (Cushings). As your boy started having issues back in 2008 (and maybe earlier) at the age of 8, primary IR may be a factor. PPID is a possible added issue now that he is 14yo. As he is having difficulties now, testing now is recommended. We have a seasoned ECIR member that lives in your area who can help you get all of this sorted out. Let us know if you'd like to have some "boots on the ground" assistance.


Why is on Thyro-L? Primary hypothyroidism is virtually non-existent in horses. IF he tested with low thyroid it is likely secondary to diet deficiencies and/or other disease processes and will correct itself when the primary causes are identified and eliminated. If he was tested while on bute then the results are questionable as bute interferes with thyroid function.


Oral Isoxsuprine has been found to be useless in horses so this is likely a waste of your money.


Why is he on bio-sponge? How long has he been on it?


DIET: Until you know more from the blood work results we recommend starting your boy on the emergency diet that you were sent when you joined. This is a safe, but temporary, feed program that could have a quick and profound effect on his soundness. Soak your grass hay for either 30 min in hot water or 60 min in cold before feeding. Dump the water where he can't get to it. Stop the Safe Choice (it isn't safe), red salt blocks, apples, carrots, alfalfa, pasture. Make sure he doesn't have any access to mesquite beans. The Remission is OK but there are much less expensive ways to supplement magnesium, if you need it at all. The Horseshine is fine for the omega 3's. Add 2000iu vit E gelcaps with oil in them, 2 oz ( 2 heaping TBS) of iodized salt. Can use a small amount of rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp as a carrier for your supplements.


We recommend having your hay analyzed so that you know what is in excess and what is deficient and can supplement accordingly. This will also let you know whether the hay is safe to feed unsoaked. We recommend sending cored samples to Equi-Analytical Labs and requesting the Trainer #603 test. You can contact EA and they will send you sample kits to send them:


http://www.equi-analytical.com/Services/Analytical%20%20supplies.htm


TRIM: Toes backed and heels lowered so the hoof capsule tightly hugs the internal structures. This is a piece of the puzzle that is often times missing. After you have added your xrays and hoof photos please let us know so the hoof gurus can take a look and make sure your trim is optimized. Although I know you feel you have an excellent farrier, it never hurts to get a second opinion. The trim is going to be critical now that there have been tenetomies done and this is an area where we frequently see errors being made that severely compromise a horse's future soundness.


EXERCISE: Best IR buster there is but not going to be appropriate for your boy at the present time.


Ask any questions as they come up, we're here to help. We ask that you please sign your posts with your name (first is fine), general location and year of joining. Adding the link to your case history and Photos folders once you have them enables us to help you faster and helps us keep track of who's who.


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team









Robin Hardy
 

Thk you for the email! I would love to have "boots on the ground" person! Would they draw blood for the bloodwork or should I contact my vet? I will start soaking hay tnite and no more safe choice. Where can I get beet pulp as u suggested? I will also get vet to send me all X-rays/venogram ASAP. Thks for this!! I will reread all u sent and also get in touch to analyze my hay Robin Tucson,AZ 2014


Leigh Jacobs
 

Robin,
Beet Pulp can be purchased from any of the feed stores. Either as shreds or pellets.  Make sure that it does not have molasses in it.  Tanque Verde feed store, Arizona Feeds, Taylor Feed and Tack, or Pantano Stables.  Call before you go to make sure that they have what you need.  Vit E caps can be found at Walmart.  Patty Kuvik can do the sampling for you on your hay. Adobe can draw your blood and they are familiar with the requirements for shipping to Cornell.  Make sure the blood goes to Cornell. 
Leigh, Ace and Shadow
Tucson, AZ
2011


On Wednesday, August 27, 2014 2:54 PM, "Robindh1010@... [EquineCushings]" wrote:


 
Thk you for the email! I would love to have "boots on the ground" person! Would they draw blood for the bloodwork or should I contact my vet? I will start soaking hay tnite and no more safe choice. Where can I get beet pulp as u suggested? I will also get vet to send me all X-rays/venogram ASAP. Thks for this!! I will reread all u sent and also get in touch to analyze my hay Robin Tucson,AZ 2014



Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Robin,


I gave Patti the heads up to get in touch with you so you should hear from her soon. She can answer any questions that you may have as well as provide local sources for everything you might need.


Good job on getting things rolling :)


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support team




Nancy C
 

Hi Robin

I just want to second the advice Lavinia has shared and to suggest a read of the ecirhorse.org web site, especially the section on laminitis and trim. Once you have taken a look, I would also urge you to get a second opinion ideally from someone who has successfully rehabbed a laminitis/founder case with other methods before the next tenotomy.  They are out there.

I hope it helps for you to know that we all know how hard this is.  Hang in there.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 





---In EquineCushings@..., <shilohmom@...> wrote :

Hi Robin,



https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/info


Would also ask you to please upload your xrays, venograms and current hoof pictures to the Photos section of ECHistory8. This will help us help you and your boy more quickly and thoroughly. Any blood work that may have been done or other test results can also be added to your history file. Here is a link for taking good hoof pictures:


http://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/good-hoof-photos.html



TRIM: Toes backed and heels lowered so the hoof capsule tightly hugs the internal structures. This is a piece of the puzzle that is often times missing. After you have added your xrays and hoof photos please let us know so the hoof gurus can take a look and make sure your trim is optimized. Although I know you feel you have an excellent farrier, it never hurts to get a second opinion. The trim is going to be critical now that there have been tenetomies done and this is an area where we frequently see errors being made that severely compromise a horse's future soundness.










Robin Hardy
 

Hi Lavinia--I cant seem to be able to join the ECHistory8 when I try.  Have tried quite I few times now
but I'm not sure why that keeps happening.  I received all the x-rays by email from my vet and would like to upload them so someone can take a look at them.  Not sure what else they sent me as theres quite a few!

I started soaking the grass bermuda hay and he seemed to enjoy that.  Tried the beet pulp after rinse/soak/rinse, but he didn't like it.  Will try it again tomorrow.  No more safe choice, treats, etc as you mentioned. Will slowly add vit E, and other mentioned supplements to beet pulp when he starts to finally eat it :0)

Also wanted to ask if I can have the bloodwork done now?  The surgeon who did the tenotomy told me I had to wait til November.  Cooler weather?  Let me know, as I can have this done ASAP if I can do those tests now.

You said they would want pictures of his feet, but he has tenotomy shoes on both front feet and the sides are covered with thick glue as the epoxy wouldn't work that day.  Either bad batch, old or the humidity was super high here.  Can't see the bottom of his feet either due to a blue spongy pad thats between his foot and the tenotomy shoe.  Let me know if you still want pics of them.  His next x-ray will be Sept. 26th.

Also, should I buy 20 or more bales of bermuda grass to have anaylzed?  What does the group usually due in regards to that?  That one has me perplexed

Thank you all for helping me and my horse.  I will admit I am a little overwhelmed when reading the information on your site about feet trimming and nutrition.  My vet nor my farrier have never steered me
down this path.  They have never helped me find out the reason "why" he keeps getting laminitis and this time it has been horrible for him and I.

Any help, suggestions, etc would be appreciated.

Robin Hardy
Tucson, AZ
8/27/14



Edie Widoff
 

I had the same issues with trying to join the ECH8 group.


Edie,

8/14 Colorado



Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi robin,


I'll send you an invitation - that should get around the Neo nonsense.


Lavinia

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team






paulah@...
 

Hi Robin,
Ideally you would test your hay before buying if your horse is IR, otherwise you may end up buying hay that is more than 10% ESC + starch, which would not be safe for an IR horse without soaking first.  Some farmers and distributors are easier to work with than others, but if you talk with people, you may find a good source.  
The beginning is challenging because you don't know what to do or who to trust.  Many vets and farriers are not up to date on these issues, but think they are.  You want to do the best you can for your horse, and if your horse has repeated issues, something is not being addressed.  Correct testing will give you a good idea of what your horse is dealing with and this group will give you help on what to do.  It takes some figuring to get your horse's situation sorted out and then figuring out what your management program is.  It gets easier and it is wonderful when your horse is doing better and getting comfortable.
We are rooting for you!

Paula with Cory (IR) and Onyx (IR/EC?, tests pending)  in Bucks County, PA, USA      EC 2014     NCRplus2011   



---In EquineCushings@..., <Robindh1010@...> wrote :
Also, should I buy 20 or more bales of bermuda grass to have anaylzed?  What does the group usually due in regards to that?  That one has me perplexed

Thank you all for helping me and my horse.  I will admit I am a little overwhelmed when reading the information on your site about feet trimming and nutrition.  My vet nor my farrier have never steered me
down this path.  They have never helped me find out the reason "why" he keeps getting laminitis and this time it has been horrible for him and I.

Any help, suggestions, etc would be appreciated.

Robin Hardy
Tucson, AZ
8/27/14