acute laminitis and updated case


beverly meyer
 

Hello to the angel helpers! Thank you so much for being here for us newbies needing support.    

I uploaded new data to Ginger's history ( I hope) and Lee Anne is uploading feet pictures.

Meanwhile, we're 4 weeks into not eating but at 50% (as it hurts too much to stand), worsening pain, lying down almost 100% of the time now.  

Potassium levels extremely low. Not drinking.  ACTH perfect!  Insulin 174.

I'd appreciate insights as to what to do when food and feet seem clean and the only things I know to do are give MovEase or Devil's Claw.  Surely something else??  Even the hospital??

I apologize for needing help, but I am learning as fast as I can.  

I was on Jherb last week but stopped since the lamintis is getting more acute. 

Thank you, thank you.

Beverly 6/14

Beverly Texas

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Beverly%20Texas/



Nancy C
 

Thank you for the update

How have you determined it is acute laminitis and not abscess? 

Above all you need to make sure she continues to drink.   Did you have a Chem panel done? the most importat electrolyte is salt. Syringing in salt is recommended but you need to make sure she can get to water easily and often and track how much she is drinking. Archived messages below

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/search/messages?advance=true&am=CONTAINS&at=drkellon&cm=CONTAINS&ct=electrolyte%20salt&dm=IS_ANY&fs=false

 

This is very hard work. If this is becoming too much, Beverly, you need to find someone in the area who can help you negotiate this, ie., a trimmer or knowledgeable owner experienced in successful rehab.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
FACT: Standing on cement significantly reduces blood flow to the equine foot.
See R. M. Bowker, VMD, PhD, Nerves, Nerves, Nerves: Why Are They So Important To The Horse?  2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, www.ecirhorse.org
and
See RM Bowker, VMD, PhD, The Vascular Cushion Of The Frog What Does It Do?  2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 





---In EquineCushings@..., <bmeyer@...> wrote :


I uploaded new data to Ginger's history ( I hope) and Lee Anne is uploading feet pictures.


Beverly 6/14

Beverly Texas

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Beverly%20Texas/



Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

There is too much going on here to be sure about what is happening.

Poor appetite:
- pain (feet and XXterra)
- pergolide

Elevated insulin:
- pain
- cold
- diet change

Hoof sole lesion:
- not likely to be bleeding from a sole bruise in October and she would have been lame right after she did it, not now
- abscess
- perforation

Hoof pain:
- vascular (cold)
- neuropathic
- abscess/collection
- perforation

Any combination of those factors could be operating.  I would get back on ODTB immediately.  LeeAnne posted extremely detailed instructions on soaking them.  Previcox can easily be doing much more harm than good. Would stop that and get her on ALCar, generous dose of Jiaogulan (start at 1 tsp and move up if gums not obviously more pink), leg wraps and lined boots (fleece or socks).

You need to have your veterinarian look at the sole and if necessary repeat radiographs to rule out perforation.

What did the "bump" on the cheek look like?

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Mimi Costley
 

Hi Beverly,

It sounds like your horse is really painful. Does she not tolerate bute?  The last time I checked, that was the only medication that has been proven to be helpful with laminitis. It gives my horse stomach ulcers so  it would be a last resort for me. However in this situation I would try it along with ulcer meds - even though that would mean I was giving her antacid pills 3  X a day for at least 6 weeks. Many horses tolerate bute just fine.

I am not the one to advise you on type of trimming or special shoes but as you probably know that is very important also.

I feel like I am butting in here, since I am new to this blog. But, as a small animal vet, I am very concerned about controlling pain in animals. Of course a horse that has to lie down to relieve the pain is very painful.

Good luck,
Mimi

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 15, 2015, at 9:19 AM, threecatfarm@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:

 




---In EquineCushings@..., <bmeyer@...> wrote :

Hello to the angel helpers! Thank you so much for being here for us newbies needing support.    

I uploaded new data to Ginger's history ( I hope) and Lee Anne is uploading feet pictures.

Meanwhile, we're 4 weeks into not eating but at 50% (as it hurts too much to stand), worsening pain, lying down almost 100% of the time now.  

Potassium levels extremely low. Not drinking.  ACTH perfect!  Insulin 174.

I'd appreciate insights as to what to do when food and feet seem clean and the only things I know to do are give MovEase or Devil's Claw.  Surely something else??  Even the hospital??

I apologize for needing help, but I am learning as fast as I can.  

I was on Jherb last week but stopped since the lamintis is getting more acute. 

Thank you, thank you.

Beverly 6/14

Beverly Texas

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Beverly%20Texas/



beverly meyer
 

Thanks Dr. Kellon. Please clarify dose on jherb is 1 tsp. once or twice for 425 pound pony. And is OK in acute laminitis.
Nancy, it is equal pain in both feet with swaying and legs forward posture. Farrier and vet say no abscess.
1). Fast growing lump in cheek diagnosed by DDS as a tumor/cancer. No biopsy. She started her on for XXterra 9 days in December and it did respond with bleeding and sloughing off. It is not currently bleeding unless rubs the scab and maybe 1 drop blood. No pain now. Size of a quarter.
2). The hoof spongy spot is NOT bleeding, just soft. It only released when farrier opened it slightly several weeks ago. Not really tender and we're watching for any abscess trying to exit. Is poulticed with Magic Cushion under the taped on plastic shoes. Checked weekly. I bought Numotizine. Is that better?
3). Yes did blood panel. Sodium perfect. Potassium extreme low. Is salt still the answer? Maybe was result of lack of food for 2 -3 weeks.
4). Will repeat radiographs
5). ALCAR ok with a cancer? Files say no. Thanks for clarifying!
Beverly 6/14
Beverly Texas
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Beverly%20Texas/


Nancy C
 

Hi Mimi

Welcome!  Always nice to see a vet becoming a member.

Lots of info on why NSAIDs do not work for these horses and unfortuantely many members have had the very same experience you have had with GI issues.

Good threads
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/topics/76139
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/topics/42054

 


In the files:

 

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/search/files?query=nitric

In the 2013 No Laminitis! Proceedings available under ECIR Group Inc at IVIS and at the ecirhorse website under my signature.  Look specifically for Dr Kellon on Endothelin-1 and Dr Bowker on Nerves.

 

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Invest in the health of your horse and help ECIR Group nonprofit at the same time! Hear Drs Kellon, Bowker and more, in eight hours of great info and informative Q&A from 2013 NO Laminitis! Conference.

Conference Proceedings & Recordings

 





Nancy C
 

One more

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/topics/123633

 



Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Invest in the health of your horse and help ECIR Group nonprofit at the same time! Hear Drs Kellon, Bowker and more, in eight hours of great info and informative Q&A from 2013 NO Laminitis! Conference.

Conference Proceedings & Recordings

 





hawkhilldeb@...
 

Beverly, your situation sounds so much like mine several months ago.  Cory was down for weeks and I wondered if he would improve.  I am wondering, since you say she is only eating at 50% because it hurts so much to stand, if you are giving her food near her head when she is down?  I know you probably are, but I just wanted to be sure.  Cory and I spent weeks doing this and I would also bring him water regularly (didn't want to leave the bucket to be turned over).  We developed quite a routine.

Also, I am wondering if you have tried APF?  Didn't see it in your case history.  I know it is recommended for the veil, but Cory always seems to have a little bit better attitude when he is on it.  And another thing I use is the Phytoquench.  Now I am putting a little salt in it just to make sure he is getting enough.  I hate the smell, but Cory loves it and I think it helps his appetite and maybe with the pain a little.

Now Cory is noodling around in his paddock and being generally obnoxious by playing with his hay net when I am not moving fast enough.  I am so glad to see it.  He is not 100% yet but hopefully we will get there.  So don't lose hope. Ponies can be amazingly resilient.

Deb and Cory in NC
July 2012
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/files/Deb%20Funderburk%20in%20NC/
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory5/photos/albums/1275105710

 


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 


--In EquineCushings@..., <bmeyer@...> wrote :

Thanks Dr. Kellon. Please clarify dose on jherb is 1 tsp. once or twice
for 425 pound pony. And is OK in acute laminitis.

In this case I would use that dose.  Worsening pain does not mean acute laminitis.  Other potential factors outlined in first mail.
= = = = = =

Nancy, it is equal pain in both feet with swaying and legs forward
posture. Farrier and vet say no abscess.

It could still be abscess related.  There is  no way to rule out abscess.
= = = == = ==  

3). Yes did blood panel. Sodium perfect. Potassium extreme low. Is
salt still the answer? Maybe was result of lack of food for 2 -3 weeks.

When sodium in diet is low, more potassium is excreted in the urine. How low was it?
= = = = =

5). ALCAR ok with a cancer? Files say no. Thanks for clarifying!
 
Where in the files? There is no contraindication for ALCar with cancer.  You don't have a diagnosis of cancer anyway, just a suspicion of something from a visual inspection. XXterra is usually used on sarcoids.  Sarcoids are not cancerous.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


beverly meyer
 

Is it really ok to feed them lying down?? Ginger would eat that way but I am afraid of choke and remove the pan a few feet away after 2 bites.
I'd love to know this is safe!!
Thanks for opening this conversation.
Beverly 6/14
Beverly Texas
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Beverly%20Texas/

--


Lorna Cane
 



>Is it really ok to feed them lying down?? 

My horses ate lying down for months when they were recovering from sloughing all their hooves.

Totally safe.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup





beverly meyer
 

Lorna, when your horse ate lying down, was it hay or wet cubes?  Thinking that hay might be safer than mouthfuls of wet stuff??
Thank you. I'll wait to hear more before I try.
Beverly 6/14
Beverly Texas


Lorna Cane
 



>Lorna, when your horse ate lying down, was it hay or wet cubes?  >Thinking that hay might be safer than mouthfuls of wet stuff??

They ate loose hay this way.
They also ate soaked beet pulp and soaked soy hull pellets this way.

Sometimes they ate their hay with their heads on the ground. Sideways.
And when Spring came one of them ate the grass when he was down,and his head was on the ground,sometimes.

When they ate the beet pulp and the soy hull pellets I usually placed the pails so that they could eat while being up on their sternums.I would leave the pail available when I had to leave them to do chores,etc.They would sometimes tip the pail over so they could stick their muzzles into the pail on its side.

Ginger needs to eat - I know you know this- so you need to make it easy for her,especially when she's feeling so sore.

She also needs to drink.My horses really appreciate warm water in the winter.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup




beverly meyer
 

Thank you!! I wish I'd known this years ago!!
I thought that drinking while lying was prohibited so assumed wet food they could "gulp" was also. Obviously their necks are made to swallow uphill, so horizontal looks so dangerous.
Thanks for the great advice!
Beverly

--
Beverly Meyer, MBA
Clinical and Holistic Nutritionist
www.ondietandhealth.com
Facebook: Beverly Meyer on Diet and Health
Radio: Primal Diet - Modern Health


beverly meyer
 

Sodium was 140, Potassium 2.1. December 31st.
She had not been eating well at all for 3 weeks (maybe 1/3 ration) and I think potassium can be low in anorexia.
She is eating better now, maybe 2/3 ration. Lorna just clued me I can feed wet ODTB lying down! That will help!
Her case shows other low rbc's, wbc's, hct., and high MCV.
Also, Dr. Kellon, you had said 1 tsp. Jherb and I asked if 1 tsp. twice or 1 once. Your reply said "use that dose" but which one!?
Third, I was thinking of AAKG as incompatible with cancer, and incorrectly stated Alcar. Sorry.
Thank you so kindly for your interest. We'd be lost without you.
Beverly 6/14
Beverly Texas
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Beverly%20Texas/


Lorna Cane
 

You're welcome,Beverly.

>I thought that drinking while lying was prohibited

Can you describe what you mean here?

>so assumed wet food they could "gulp" was also. 

Often when a horse is so down(literally and figuratively,there isn't much gulping going on.But of course as always it depends.

Add your case history link to your signature,with your location and when you joined the group every time you post.


 Lorna in Ontario,Canada

ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup


 


beverly meyer
 

I thought horses should eat and drink at ground level, as they evolved to do.  The lower jaw is in the right place to chew only when the head is down. 
I've never cared for a horse before but used to ride and was always told to lower the bucket!  So feeding at chest height while standing, or in my case, while lying, just seems anatomically wrong and therefore might be dangerous.
Thanks for any input!
Beverly 6/14
Beverly Texas


Lorna Cane
 

Hi Beverly,

>I thought horses should eat and drink at ground level, as they evolved to do.  The lower jaw is in the right place to chew only when the head is down. 


Our sister site,ECHorsekeeping,is the perfect place to continue this discussion.
EquineCushings & IR - Off Topic Issues

 

I have moved your message over there for you.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup





cynthia kontz
 

Hi All,
I felt compelled to add my experience with my horse Raven.  Several years ago, she spent most hours in the day/night lying down. If I left prior to her laying down, she took care of it herself and position it perfectly so she could reach it after she snuggled down.  The attached pic was taken by my friend showing the evidence..  :-)
- - -Cindy & Raven2012 (?) WV

On Friday, January 16, 2015 9:07 PM, "windybriars@... [EquineCushings]" <EquineCushings@...> wrote:


  Hi Beverly,
I thought horses should eat and drink at ground level, as they evolved to do.  The lower jaw is in the right place to chew only when the head is down. 
Our sister site,ECHorsekeeping,is the perfect place to continue this discussion.EquineCushings & IR - Off Topic Issues
| |
| | | | EquineCushings & IR - Off Topic Issues One of the ECIR Group sister sites, ECHorsekeeping provides a place for discussion related to non- metabolic horses. Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exer... | |
| View on groups.yahoo.com | Preview by Yahoo |
| |

 I have moved your message over there for you.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIRModerator 2002
*See What Works in EquineNutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdfhttps://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Lorna Cane
 


Another question for you,Beverly.

What is the 'Personal Supplement' you are feeding? I understand from your CH that it was derived from  hair analysis ?

Here is some good information from Dr. Kellon wrt hair analysis and horses.
Go here Equine Cushings and Insulin Resistance


and scroll down to third - Hair Mineral Excerpt.

Among other valuable pieces of information there is this:
"Horses are not humans and many aspects of their metabolism is very different. There is no justification whatsoever for diagnosing anything about a horse's health or metabolism from a hair mineral pattern."


 Lorna in Ontario,Canada

ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup