Extremely skinny just diagnosed cushings horse in Australia please help
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Belinda Jacomas
Hi Everyone,
My horse has been diagnosed with Cushings after loosing weight fairly rapidly over the last 6 weeks, he only had a single blood test and it showed quite high cortisol levels, vet thought he wouldn't do well with the Dex test. He has been on 1mg (4ml) Ranvet liquid pergolide for 2 weeks, but is still loosing weight at a rapid rate. I am feeding him per day (1/2 morn and 1/2 at night) 20 litres Lucurne Chaff 5kg of Hygain Zero which is a pellet made from Lupin hulls with added vitamins & minerals, 4 cups of Copra 1 cup black sunflower seeds 4 cups rice bran (Coprice pellets which is rice bran, rice bran oil and added vitamins etc) All the above feeds (except lucurne) have a NSC of under 10% so they should all be OK to feed. I have asked at the various feed stores about the NSC content of the lucurne but they don't know, as it comes from a variety of different suppliers so it can vary. Also I have tried to enquire about testing my grass, but the paddock is made up of a mix of about 20 grasses and I can't find much info on any of them, and the feed store look at me like I am crazy. The volume of what I am feeding is about double the amount of feed he has been quite happy on all his life. Also I have looked for Alfalfa cubes in Australia but I can only find 1 manufacturer and they don't know the NSC percentage. My horse looks like he has been starved. He is so skinny and despite being on pergolide for the last 2 weeks he is still loosing weight. I had a look at the emergency diet, but the beet pulp at the feed store all have sugar in them, and is this diet for loosing weight or gaining weight? I am really confused is there anyone out there that can help me at all? I am really upset and my horse can't afford to loose any more weight. You can see all his ribs, his hips are like sharp points, he has a big valley between his spine and the top of his ribs, even his backside is wasted away. He can't have a roll as he doesn't have enough muscle to get down, but he still eats like a maniac, he knows he is starving, but he still seems happy and has a sparkle in his eyes. He is 26 years old, Arab / Quarter Horse 16.2hh Thanks Belinda |
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Chanda
I can't answer many of your questions, but hopefully can help a bit with the beet pulp... Usually the sugars in beet pulp are due to molasses added back for dust control and flavoring, it can still be used but will take more rinsing to get rid of the sugars. The recommendation is to rinse, soak and rinse again; initial rinse is to get rid of surface dirt and sugars, the soak to fluff it up to reduce choke (also gets fluids in them), and then rinse again til water runs clear to get rid of more sugars. Beet pulp can be used for weight loss or gain, depending on how it's used; replace grain portion of diet and even some hay for weight loss, or just add it to the diet for weight gain. If he'll eat it, I'd certainly try it. Chanda MT 9/04 |
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Belinda Jacomas
Thanks Chanda, I will buy some tomorrow and add it to his feed. Belinda
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boofamaurice@...
Hi Belinda
There are a few Aussies on here that will be able to help you and the fab mods will respond with a detailed message soon. Just wondering what state you're in as we (aussie members) are spread across the country and will be able to assist you with resources going forward. Cheers Kylie Western Downs, QLD Aus jam/feb 11 |
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takarri@...
---In EquineCushings@..., <belinda.jacomas@...> wrote : Hi Everyone, My horse has been diagnosed with Cushings after loosing weight fairly rapidly over the last 6 weeks, he only had a single blood test and it showed quite high cortisol levels, vet thought he wouldn't do well with the Dex test.
Hi Belinda, Welcome to the group.
Mandy has already given you a plethora of information in her welcome- so I won’t double up on that. I whole heartedly agree with her comment regarding the diet though. Pretty much everything you are feeding is not suitable for a horse with Cushings, with the exception of Hygain Zero. Whilst I’m not a big fan of it- it will do in a pinch and is relatively “safe” if you can’t get hold of anything else. However, I am a big fan of Maxisoy & then Speedybeet.
Please let us know where in OZ you are- I’m in Sth West Vic, near Geelong . I am happy to guide & support you through this time as I know it can be daunting. I can help you source what you need to get started etc.
As far as the Pergolide goes, Can you ask your vet to write a script for the capsules?. Best price is still from Bova compounding http://bovavet.com.au/
We are entering what is known as our “seasonal high” in the southern hemisphere- where the ACTH rises naturally in all horses. It has the potential to create more issues in horses that already have an elevated ACTH – puts us a bit behind the 8 ball – so to speak.- so this is the time we need to be a bit more proactive.
Have you had his teeth checked to make sure there are no issues there?
I wouldn't worry too much about testing pasture at this stage. It can be done & down the track if you want to do that, I’ll tell you how. I’d be more concerned at this stage about your hay source. What type are you feeding & how much?
If you’re not in a drought area then I’d encourage you to soak your hay until it can be tested. 1 hr in cold water or 30 mins in hot water, drain & discard the water onto the garden. Do you have any slow feeder hay nets? Let him have access to the hay 24/7.
Be prepared for a lot more crazy looks, from feed stores, vets & your friends. You will probably get a lot of well meaning advice from all of them about what to do, how to feed. Believe me; I’ve been in there too. The DDTE protocol that we advocate works- it’s as simple as that. More than likely it will be totally different to what you have done your whole life, and you may find it hard, confusing and frustrating at first. Stick with it; we’ll stick with you through it. Ask questions, read the files
Fill out a case history when you can, if you have trouble with it- let me know https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/info
Pauline Jack & Spur Sth West Vic Australia Aug 07 'Start by doing what's necessary; then do what's possible; and suddenly you are doing the impossible.' ~ St. Francis of Assisi |
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Belinda Jacomas
Hi Everyone, thanks for all your reply's, I live in Tamborine Village QLD (1 hr west of gold coast)
I have just bought some speedibeet and have 1/2 kg soaking now. Pack says 3 kg per day so I will build up to that. Or should I be feeding more? Will not give him any more rice bran or sunflower seeds, but the only way he will eat the pergolide is in copra. If I cut that down from 2 cups per day to 1/2 cup only at night with the pergolide do you think that would be OK? It is Cool stance NSC<11%. Teeth and worming were done 8 weeks ago, he has trouble eating hay, so he gets lucurne chaff, about 20 litres per day in total over 4 or 5 feeds. I have some in soaking now and will soak it from now on (haven't done this prior the vet said not to bother)???. Have put it in the laundry tub in a pillowcase... that was the only way I could think of being able to strain the water off afterward. I can't give him free chaff as the other horse is fat as a hippo, and as soon as he goes for a drink she is straight into his food, but he freaks if I lock him in and he can't see her. The layout of the shed and paddocks means that you can only see part of the paddock and if she wanders more than about 30 meters away he then can't see her (he is fairly high strung) I figured out last night that he is only actually on 0.8mg pergolide, not 1mg. The vet said to give him 4ml, but on the bottle it says 5ml = 1mg. I think he needs to go to 1 or 1.5mg but the vet has not called me back from my call yesterday morning. Very frustrating. My concern is that with the weight still being lost he does not have enough time left to muck around with working out the pergolide dosage for too long. He hasn't had the pergolide veil every single bit of food he gets he eats with great enthusiasm. He is only a 1 on the weight scale so it is becoming more urgent, but the vet can't seem to summon up any urgency whatsoever. The vet also said that I shouldn't feed soy as it does something about mirroring hormones??? or mucking up hormones??? Mum's oncologist said something similer to her also, she is not allowed soy. So I am confused about the soy. Thanks for the info re cheaper pergolide, will have the vet get that one when I need more. Could you please let me know if everyone can see this reply? Or do I need to reply individually to everyone? Thanks, Belinda |
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takarri@...
Could you please let me know if everyone can see this reply? Or do I need to reply individually to everyone?
Hi Belinda,
Yes we can see your reply- so this will suffice for everyone :). Good that you got some speedy-beet, The trick is to rinse it first, then soak it until it fluffs up & then rinse it again until the water runs clear. If he is at a body score of 1- this fella needs to get some groceries into him- the problem is that if he’s not used to the new feed- you don’t want to cause a colic- so need to introduce it slowly & build up. Sort of caught between a rock and a hard place with that one. I defer that one to those that are more nutritionally minded Can you get some oaten or wheaten chaff instead of the lucerne (it would still need soaking and only as a temporary measure while you are transitioning his diet.
Tamborine Village is a lovely area. One of our members, Kylie, is approx 3 hrs from you- so she'll be able to help you source things closer to home if you have trouble finding something.
Unfortunately, a lot of vets aren't up to speed with the latest protocol of how to manage metabolic & endocrine issues in horses. You may need to guide your vet gently, or better still, encourage him to join so he can educate himself. (said in the nicest possible way of course)
Has he had a full blood panel done to determine if there are any other underlying issues?
Totally understand about the freaking out of the out of sight horse- do the best you can with trying to come up with a solution. Can you hot tape so that he has his own space, but can still see her?
Regarding the soy- it’s not an issue for geldings as it is the hull of the soy, not actually soy meal. There have been reports that mares may be a bit sensitive to it still- but it’s not very common.
Re the pergolide from Bova- it won’t be cheaper than the liquid- it’s just a better, more stable delivery of the medication. Pauline Jack & Spur Sth West Vic Australia Aug 07 |
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Belinda Jacomas
Hi I just tried the beet, and he refuses to eat it. He also refuses to eat soaked chaff. Tried them separate and together. Added Zero, he ate a few mouthfuls then walked off. Added 2 cups copra, he ate about 6 mouthfuls and walked off. Tried locking him in with ropes, he just walked a circle in the stable for 2 hours and would not eat. Gave him a handful of Zero by itself and he inhaled it, so he is hungry. Have taken the food away now and let him out as I don't want to leave him locked in without keeping an eye on him as he was trying to escape the entire time. Not sure now whether to soak some hay for the morning or not. Is there anything I can add to the soaked hay / beet to make it tastier?
Thanks Belinda |
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boofamaurice@...
Hi Belinda
Sometimes horses take some adjusting to new feeds and some horses either like it or dislike it. There is a picky eaters list on here that can help with tempting them to eat the new feed. Here is the link https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/search/files?query=picky%20eater However you've indicated he ate Hygain Zero. Hygain Zero's ingredients consist of vegetable protein meals and legume hulls, with some minerals and added amino acids. It's NSC is less than 7% so is a safe food to feed - I've not used it as I'm a fan of Soy Hulls for mineral carriers however do you usually add water to it to soften it - perhaps you could use this as a carrier and slowly add over the next week or so adding speedi beet and reducing Hygain Zero. I can help you source good quality Rhodes Grass hay if you don't already have a supplier - I read you were feeding lucerne chaff - it might be worthwhile seeing if anyone in your area chaffs hay for their own horses to see if you can have Rhodes Grass Hay chaffed. I have found FB horse hub communities are an asset in this regard. I'm about three hours from you Belinda - if you need any other resources please let me know - I've been in the same situation as you are now and am more than happy to help you should you need it. Cheers Kylie and crew Western Downs Queensland Aus Jan/Feb 11 Is there anything I can add to the soaked hay / beet to make it tastier? |
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Belinda Jacomas
Hi Kylie,
Thanks for that. I did get him to eat about 2 litres of it all up, so about 1/4 of his normal food ration for the night. I have been out there 3 times to offer it and he has eaten a bit each time. I have fed Maxisoy before and as far as I know he liked it, so I will go and get some of that tomorrow. Or he did like it when it was mixed with the Biomare he used to eat, can't say now as this is the first time ever he has refused food that wasn't hay. With regards to Rhodes hay, I tried him on a rhodes / lucerne mix a few years ago when lucerne hay was $25 a small bale to try and save some money, and he refused to eat it. Both horses trampled it down all over their stables and proceeded to have their midday snooze on it. I think I will just feed him Zero with soaked hay in the morning, then try a 1 part beet / 1 part soy / 2 parts zero mix tomorrow night. My hubby has made me a large 'drying' table tonight with shadecloth as the table top kind of like a big collander, I have spread out the soaked hay so it doesn't start to ferment or mould and it should be a lot dryer in the morning, maybe it was just too wet for him (this is me being hopeful)! Thanks so much for your help, will let you know his opinion of the soy tomorrow night, and will take a look at the picky eaters list now. Belinda |
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Chanda
Beet pulp is an acquired taste for many horses, and you need to start small with some of them, like maybe only a cup dry measure then soaked (perhaps even less for the really picky ones) and mix it in with something he knows and likes. After the initial time or two, pretty much all of mine readily eat beet pulp; I only have a couple that aren't thrilled with it, and wouldn't you know it, my Cushing's gelding is one that doesn't relish it (he'll eat a small portion plain, but if I mix any supplements he won't touch and I waste beet pulp and supplements). [Luckily, here in the states I do have a few options, he loves the Stabul 1 banana flavor, so that helps keep him eating on those picky days.] Hopefully some of the OZ members will help you with what's readily available to you and suggestions on helping the picky eater. My senior gelding that I lost a few years ago, never would eat more than 1# beet pulp, he just didn't like wet feed (regardless of how much or little water was in it). Chanda MT 9/04 |
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Belinda Jacomas
Hi Pauline and Kylie, I called Bova this morning and they put me onto one of their chemists, he can supply the pergolide in a powder / capsule, but he said that he has never heard of the liquid breaking down and 95% of their orders are for liquid and only 5% powder / capsules. So I am even more confused now.
Refused to eat soaked hay again this morn and refused beet again, after two hours I took it away so the other fatso horse couldn't eat it, and have given him some Zero so at least he has eaten something. Hubby dragged out the old electric fence this morning and we will set it up tonight after work and make a separate yard for each of them so that she can't go out of his sight. Won't do her any harm, she is not getting fed and looks like a pregnant hippo she is so fat. That way I can leave his food out and she can't get to it when he walks off. Any more thoughts on the pergolide? It must be working a bit, as he has started to shed a little and the fatty bits above his eyes have gone down to 1/2 of what they were. Thanks Belinda |
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takarri@...
---In EquineCushings@..., <belinda.jacomas@...> wrote : Hi Pauline and Kylie, I called Bova this morning and they put me onto one of their chemists, he can supply the pergolide in a powder / capsule, but he said that he has never heard of the liquid breaking down and 95% of their orders are for liquid and only 5% powder / capsules. So I am even more confused now. Hi Belinda,
This issue is confusing when you get so many different answers to the same question.
I’ve had this discussion with Bova before, Ask them if they have done a quality control test on the liquid to back up what they say. The answer will more than likely be no- as it’s a costly test to run. They make up more liquid, mainly because that’s what the vets prescribe. Usually because the vets think it’s too hard for the client to give a capsule to a horse- or they don’t know better. My dear PPID/IR pony Jack was part of the Ranvet liquid trial when it first came out onto the market- so I can speak from first hand experience on my one horse trial. I’ll give you the short version When he was finally diagnosed, starting on the liquid was better than nothing- I had no idea about Cushings- did what the vet told me etc., wasn't working very well. I then had a trimmer out- last chance sort of situation and she put me onto this group. Denial, frustration, change & acceptance happened over time & I took the advice of the group & changed to the compounded capsules. The difference within a few days of his attitude & demeanor was amazing. It made me start to query what I was being told. I saw a massive improvement to say the least.
However, having said that- I’m also very aware of financial restrictions that some people may face- so for me it really is a matter of trying to work out what is best for each individual situation. I recently priced compounded liquid pergolide for Jack- he’s a Shetland & currently on 13mg (2 x 6.5mg capsules) & the price made me choke- so for me the capsules are a better option- though still really expensive compared to what people pay in the USA. Same for my 31yr old Appy- currently on 7mg. I agree with you that you may be seeing some improvement & that’s great. It’s a start & you’re on the right track.
I feel we need to tackle this on two fronts- immediate issues & long term plans. Immediate is to continue the liquid pergolide & slowly increase dose & to get him to eat/accept safer foods. Seriously consider changing to the capsules. It is more important to keep him eating – so continue with the Zero & add a handful or less of speedy beet or maxisoy just to introduce it to the palate. Do what you can with what you've got on hand at the moment- I feel it needs to be gradual & subtle with your guy. May also need to consider that there is also an ulcer issue.
Not sure if it’s been addressed yet- but stop the iron supplement- Blud- horses don’t tend to be truly anemic- they more likely tend to be iron overloaded.
Long term is to get him stabilised & on a balanced diet.
You’re doing a great job so far & he’s lucky to have you in his corner.
Pauline Jack & Spur Sth West Vic Australia Aug 07 |
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