Date
1 - 10 of 10
New to Cushings
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kleonaptra@...
Hi all Thank God for Yahoo Groups! This is the 4th one Ive joined for sick animals. My old lady Teshan is 24 and diagnosed with mild Cushings just before christmas. Apparently her cortisol was not high (Im going to get an exact from the vet) But the cost of pergolide is slowly killing me - I have 3 other horses as well as a rescue centre of birds and cats plus a family - so I started looking into alternatives. I was amazed to find vitex as I was going to trial her on this in winter when she was acting crazy. I was really frightened because it looked like she had full on dementia so it was actually a relief to find out it was cushings. She's never had laminitis, weight difficulties or other problems, just started going nutty and this year didnt lose her coat so we got her tested. So, if a horse of her size would need 80ml per day based on this study Using Vitex agnus castus extracts to treat Cushing's Disease
What would you recommend giving her as a powder? The powder is very accessible. I would give her 100 - 200gm as a trial. She is supposed to be on 5ml pergolide per day and is now losing her appetite. I'd like to reduce the pergolide to about 2ml and give her 100gm vitex powder and see how she goes. She's been good on the pergolide until now and was actually easier to handle (for the first time in her life) before treatment. I have had her for 19 years and she is still my chief crazy horse! The worst problem she had was scouring and staining her legs and tail. Vets had been telling me for about 5 years it was common in older brood mares but this has now cleared up so was obviously related to her cushings. I am also going to tweak her diet - she gets cool conditioner pellet from coprice with oaten chaff, showtime stud and hay, Im going to reduce the sugars a bit. Its going to be a balancing act because she still needs to eat! Hi everyone and cant wait to join the discussion! K |
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Kerry Isherwood
Hi,
The "mods" will chime in momentarily(!--they are awesome) but I wanted to throw out this: has your mare had her insulin & glucose checked to rule out Insulin Resistance? It is a syndrome that can & often does happen simultaneously with Cushings (aka PPID). I have two IR horses, one becomes dull & depressed when her insulin is too high but my younger gelding manifests a completely opposite response: he becomes outright "crazy" when his insulin spikes--paces in field, super anxious, breaks crossties, jigs/kicks out/bucks under tack, farrier/dentist refuse to work on him--now that his IR is controlled with a strict low sugar diet, his demeanor is SO much better. Stands like a pussycat for the farrier, ground ties for grooming, etc. He was almost written off as dangerous & unrideable (he was in New Holland's killpen as a 3yo), and it took four years of journaling to recognize the crazy behavior patterns (grass & grain = bad) before I decided to check his insulin levels, more or less on a hunch, I admit. My vet thought I was crazy to want the tests run but sure enough, two of the three parameters used to diagnose IR were very high (his insulin & leptin levels; the other test being blood glucose levels). I needed to overnight the blood sample to Cornell Univ's lab, as they are the only lab currently offering the leptin test, which is very helpful in determining if IR is a singular problem or a secondary manifestation of another disease process (often Cushings/PPID) Anyway, you'll very soon receive lots of welcoming responses from this group. I jusy wanted to share my story of my "crazy" horse -- my other horse, the Cushings/PPID one, is very well controlled on 1.5mg/day Prascend(pergolide) so im afraid I cant offer much advice on the vitex. So far mine is doing splendidly on just the low dose pergolide, thank goodness. Eventually she may need adjunct therapies (vitex, etc) so Im very interested in what others in the group have to advise. Good luck! And welcome to a truly wonderful group! Kerry in NY Pinky Sept 2014 Tofurky Nov 2014 |
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Maggie
Hi "K", Welcome to the group! We have a strong group of people in Australia who may be of help to your for sourcing products/support, so tell us your general location and I'm sure they will be chiming in! We need more details about Teshan to help answer your questions better. To get those details, we ask that all members fill out a case history on their horse. To do that, you need to join one of our sister sites, ECH8, where we store the CH's. Here's a link to that site. It shouldn't take long to get approved and then just follow the instructions to fill out a CH on Teshan. https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/info We follow a philosophy here called DDT/E, which stands for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise. So I'll break it down into each category and give you some more details and links to important information. Diagnosis: We do need to know exactly what test you had done and the results as well as the labs normal reference ranges. There is a place in the CH form for you to enter that information. Cushing's (PPID) and insulin resistance (IR) have some similar and overlapping symptoms, and a horse can have just PPID or just IR, but it's also common for a PPID horse to also be IR. Because of this, we recommend these 4 tests to get a complete diagnosis--eACTH, insulin, glucose and leptin levels on a NON-fasting horse. Gribbles is the lab to use in Australia. They do the leptin level. Here is a link to our "Australia" file with lab information and lots of other information you may find helpful: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/Australia/ The blood does require special treatment. Please refer to our website for the details: http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview/ddt-diagnosis It's important to get a full diagnosis because the diagnosis dictates the treatment. PPID is treated with medicine (pergolide) and IR is treated with diet. If a horse has both PPID and IR then the horse would need both medicine and a carefully managed diet for the rest of it's life. The chastetree berry can help to control the symptoms of PPID, but it does not control the growth of the tumor. It can be used in conjuction with the pergolide to help with the symptoms, most notably the long coat. There is lots of information in this file about pergolide and also CTB: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/Drugs%2C%20Pergolide%2C%20Cushings%20Disease%20Treatments/ Please follow this thread for information from Dr. Kellon about the study that you linked to: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/122989 I know when funds are tight for meds and testing it can be very difficult. Lots of people use this "list of symptoms" in combination with testing to help see if the dose of pergolide is controlling the ACTH level: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/topics/111988?threaded=1&l=1 Also want to mention that the liquid form of pergolide is the least stable form. We recommend the powered form in capsules. There is a link to a compounding pharmacy in the Aussie file and more stability information in the "pergolide 101" file. OK, on to Diet: The IR diet is low sugar starch grass hay (tested to be under 10% sugar + starch), and low fat (under 4%) with minerals to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay. And to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost in the hay curing process we add Vitamin E and ground flax seed. Details about amounts can be found on the Diet part of our website here: http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview/ddt-diet Until you can have your hay tested we recommend that you start the emergency diet, which involves soaking you hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water which removes up to ~30% of the sugar content. Make sure you dump the water where the horse(s) cannot get it. Also, as important as what you DO feed is what you DON'T feed! No pasture, grain, molasses, sugary treats, including apples and carrots, no brown/red salt blocks. You should be feeding 1.5-2% of your horse's BW in grass hay, divided into several small portions/day. We like to use small mesh hay nets to slow down the sometimes voracious appetite of some of these IR horses and they are also great for soaking hay! There is a link to a source for small mesh hay nets in that Australian file I linked to. The diet recommendations for an IR horse are extremely beneficial to a Cushing's horse's more fragile system and if the Cushing's has caused IR, then it's an essential part of the treatment. All PPID horses should be fed as though they are IR until proven otherwise! Trim: Toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. You are welcome to take and post pictures of Teshan's feet for one of our hoof specials to review to see if your trim is optimal. Please follow the instructions on this site for taking proper hoof photos: http://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/good-hoof-photos.html If you do choose to post hoof pictures, please put them in the PHOTOS section of ECH8, the group you join to fill out a CH. Exercise: The best IR buster there is! But a laminitic horse should never be forced to move! It's great that Teshan has never had laminitis!! Unfortunately, fall laminitis is often the first symptom of PPID, due to a naturally occurring seasonal rise in ACTH that all horse experience, but PPID horses have an often exaggerated and prolonged rise in theri ACTH putting at risk for laminitis. Since you are entering this very fragile time of year in Australia, it's extremely important to get Teshan under adequate control. There's some great information on our website about the seasonal rise: http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/cushing-s-disease/seasonal-rise In fact, please take the time to read and study all the parts of our website. There is so much great information there! It's also a great place to send your vet since many of them are not quite up to date with the latest info on PPID and IR. So "K", that about sums it up! I know it's a LOT of information!! But please do read the files and website! Any question you might have has probably been answered at least once in the past, so use the archives messages to search for answers to your questions too. But don't ever hesitate to ask any question that you have! We ask all members to sign their first name, date of joining and general location each time they post. Once you get Teshan's CH done, please add a link to it in your signature as well. It really helps us to find it faster and thus answer your questions faster. Thanks! Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA March 2011 EC Primary Response http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/ |
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Mandy Woods
Hi “K”,
Welcome to the group. You have lots of information available to
you here in our files as well as at www.ecirhorse.org
Please help yourself!
The first thing I want to mention is about CTB or
Vitex. We have found that this helps with symptoms like
long hair coat but it does not slow down the production of
ACTH. Please post all her labs in ECH8 so the volunteers can
see the big picture. Kerry wrote this morning about two of her
horses and their symptoms with and without
ChasteTreeBerry. Right now pergolide is the best
drug to control ACTH.
Here’s the link to join ECH8. I will also send you an invite
just incase you have difficulty joining.
The list philosophy is DDT/E. DIAGNOSIS, DIET,
TRIM and EXERCISE. All 4 points need to be in place to see
optimum results.
Let us know which test your vet ran to diagnosis Cushings. We
recommend the ACTH test to confirm PPID aka Cushings. The pergolide
we recommend is the powder/capsule to prevent it from degrading in light,
moisture and air. You will need a vets prescription for this drug.
Many of us get the powder/caps in 30 days supply so we know its
fresh. Compounded pergolide is affordable.
To confirm Insulin Resistance, we recommend pulling blood for
Insulin/Glucose/Leptin on a NON fasting horse. Feed her only
soaked/drained grass hay the night before and the day of the
test.
You could start the Temporary Emergency DIET today. This is the basis
for the custom diet you will be building for your horses. Is is low
sugar/starch forage with minerals balanced to its assay. The ER minerals
are to go with the soaked/drained hay. You can get these at most
drugstores/groceries. Vitamin E natural, loose iodized table
salt, magnesium and freshly ground flax. She should not be on
pasture. Grass is high in sugars even in the winter. NO
grains. NO treats, commercial feeds or supplements.
Red/brown salt blocks have iron and molasses in them. She needs loose
salt. Horses have smooth tongues and a block is a lot of licking.
The recipe for this diet is in the Start Here file and at www.ecirhorse.org
The cool conditioner is fat? Oaten chaff hay is high in
sugar? Are you in Australia? You can send a
hay sample to equi-analytical in NY. Then you can start to
balance your hay.
TRIM ~ feet are very important and need to have a correct trim with toes
backed and heels lowered. You can add photos of her and her
feet in the PHOTO section of ECH8.
EXERCISE is a great IR buster. Even hand walking is good if the horse
is able.
As soon as we see your Case History the volunteers will be able to help
you faster. Keep reading the files and the messages. So
much to learn! Ask questions and we’ll help. Please sign your
name, date of joining and where you live.
http://www.freil.com/~mlf/IR/ir.htm
Mandy in VA
EC Primary Response
OCT 2003
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kleonaptra@...
WHOA! Colour me confused/overwealmed/buried in info....:) Thats not a bad thing!
I have a copy of her blood test result, its hard for me to understand so I will upload it to her case history. I will be back on tonight to check messages and put full detail into her case history with fresh pics. How do I edit my signature? On Yahoo or in group options somewhere? Ive never bothered with a signature before. Teshan is very healthy and part of the reason I bred from her is her iron will and tough constitution. I will make changes to her diet but its not possible to take her off grass. Its just a fact of the space I have available to me until I sell the filly. I can restrict her acess to pasture but that will likely make her miserable. Back soon! K Western Sydney, NSW Australia, Teshan, 3/2/15 |
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Maggie
Hi K, Yes, it's a bit overwhelming at first! After a while, it does become a way of life though. You don't have to make all the changes in one day, but concentrate on the most important stuff. Number one priority right now is getting her ACTH under control, especially with you all entering your seasonal rise. Rereading your initial message I noticed that you said this: "She is supposed to be on 5ml pergolide per day and is now losing her appetite." I don't think we addressed that issue in our initial responses to you. Loss of appetite and depression can be caused from what we call the "pergolide veil" which some but not all horses experience when first starting on the drug. Two things we recommend to help with avoiding the pergolide veil are: 1) weaning slowly onto the drug, starting with 0.25mg/day (so 1.25ml if your solution is 1mg/5ml) for 3 or 4 days and increasing by 0.25mg/day until you reach your target dose, and 2) a product called APF. This is an adaptogen and has been very effective at eliminating the pergolide veil. I'm not sure in Australia if you would have it available at local tack/feed shops, but it can be ordered through many online catalogs and also on their website: http://www.auburnlabs.com/html/eqProdGen.html Also may be available at the pharmacy where you buy your pergolide. The liquid pergolide should only be used very short term as it looses stability after 14 days. There is lots of information for you to read about this subject in this file: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/Drugs%2C%20Pergolide%2C%20Cushings%20Disease%20Treatments/ Go to the 3rd file down "Compounded Drugs" and the 7th file down "Pergolide forms and stability". Also read this post from Pauline, a long time Aussie member who is currently helping another Aussie newbie: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/191891 If Pauline doesn't chime in here, I am sure she won't mind if you contact her for local advice. She is a great help and source of support for the Aussie members and has been dealing with PPID in her own herd for many years. I can totally identify with the difficulty of removing Teshan from grass. It can be one of the most difficult things for people to wrap their heads around! Really--horses are supposed to eat grass, right? Read this great post from long time member/vet Jaini (warning--it's long!): https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/165641 Ok, your signature. Are you posting through the yahoo site, or via individual emails? If you are doing it from your yahoo email, here are the instructions: http://email.about.com/od/yahoomailtip1/qt/How_to_Set_Up_Your_Yahoo_Mail_Signature.htm If you are posting through the groups, lots of people make make their signature in a document (wordpad, note pad, etc) and put it on their homescreen so that it's easily accessible to copy and paste into your posts. So far, you're doing great with your signature! Kind of a pain to type out each time, and setting it up is a real time saver. Once you get your CH done on Teshan, it should be easy enough to copy and paste the link into your signature. If you have any trouble, just let us know and we can help you. Let us know when you have your CH up! Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA March 2011 EC Primary Response http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/ |
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kleonaptra@...
Hi Maggie,
I was told by my vet it was not overly high, but after looking at the test results, it seems very high! Im hoping someone here can explain that too me. I have the results uploaded to our CH, all we tested for at this time was ACTH. Ive recently learned about the pergolide veil with the research that helped me find this group. Im planning a trial on vitex and I'll explain a bit more about that. I keep my pergolide in the fridge with all my medications. It isnt likely to degrade under those conditions, at any rate, I only get about 20 doses. I am paying $75 for 100ml. I dont have to pay for it up front every time it goes on my bill, but since I am also paying for 6 monthly Hendra boosters (about $400 a visit not counting my yearling who isnt vaccinated yet) I'd like at least part of the year vet bill free! In Australia we dont have the option to buy it from pharmacies, Ive checked that out already. I also contacted Ranvets and they cant sell it to me - even with a prescription - unless I am a vet. I can get the vitex powder for about $30 a kg and its important I try her on it, because my stallion has a severe paspalum allergy. Ive just done the grass thing with him - gut imbalance from stressed pasture and no resistance to it, as he'd been stabled before, then the paspalum allergy, all lumped in with the grief of losing his paddock mate and his first breeding season. So Ive done the grass/no grass high oxalate thing. I keep high absorption magnesium, dcp and bute on hand, as well as controlling my pasture as best I can. If Teshan becomes highly symptomatic (which at this time she is not) then I can restrict her acess to grass as I did with the stallion, but here no grass means no paddock at all which = unhappy pony...And unhappy pony in this family means wrecked fences! Teshan may have a sensitivity to paspalum or pollens as well. I need to try her on vitex because pergolide is counter indicated in horses with ergot sensitivity so the stallion wont be able to take it, (if he should inherit her cushings) and it may not be working in Teshan like it should. She certainly doesnt have the allergy the way he has it but there is a good chance they are sharing a similar allergy and she has simply had years of pasture time to adjust. When it comes to treats, Ive just gone through this with a CRF cat and another with a heart condition. I will make changes to their diet, I will monitor their conditions and take notes and work towards improvement. However I will never stop giving treats entirely. Portions may become smaller, they may get them further apart or only on a certain day, but seriously...Whats life without treats? Ive done rescue for years, no matter the species, you have to let them keep fighting. Depression is serious and affects their whole attitude to fighting their illness. So, Ive cut the studmix in her feed (which is the sugery bit) and upped the cool conditioner which is a great maintenance feed. Ive dropped the pergolide to 2ml and I should have my vitex by next week. I will update her case history as needed. I forgot to mention she gets oaten chaff with dinner, but no green. Im thinking of adding green to hide the flavours. One point of contention I know people will have..I put the pergolide in her feed. If I have to take a video to prove it to you all I will, this mare is 2hrs to catch and 2hrs to worm, not kidding. Anything you want to put in her mouth by syringe, she rears and plunges and tries to bolt. Read a recent Teshan Adventure here I may sometimes go a few days without posting - I work as well as run the farm and we have 2 kids under 3 - but I will always catch up K Western Sydney NSW Australia Teshan 3/2/2015
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Maggie
Hi K, Well an ACTH of 171 is high, but we've certainly seen worse--much worse. Maybe your vet has too and that's why he said it wasn't overly high? Don't know. It is important to get it down though, especially as your seasonal rise approaches. It was drawn Nov 21st, the naturally lowest time of the year for you, our natural high time in the US. It could go much higher during the seasonal rise and put Teshan at risk for laminitis. Our goal is NO LAMINITIS--ever!! If you've ever had a horse go through laminitis, you know why! Did you look at the files I linked to on the stability of the liquid pergolide? Here's the gist of it: Traditionally, Pergolide has been compounded into a water-based suspension. The International Journal of Pharmaceutical Compounding (IJPC) published 2 Pergolide formulas in their May/June 2005 issue. The IJPC formulas highlighted that Pergolide is not stable in water and gave the water-based suspension a “beyond-use-date” of 14 days. The 14-day “beyonduse-date” complies with the US Pharmacopeia standards for water-based suspensions. The definition for Beyond Use Date, according to the current USP<795> is “the date after which a compounded preparation is not to be used and is determined from the date the preparation is compounded.” So, essentially, after 14 days from the date your pergolide is compounded, Teshan is not getting the proper dose of the drug, if any, and you are wasting your $. If you are having it shipped overnight, then you have 14 days. If it takes 3 or 4 days to arrive at your doorstep from the time it's compounded, then you have less time. This ever changing dose is going to play havoc with her ACTH and veil symptoms as well. I would really suggest that you look into the compounded capsules. If putting the pergolide in Tesha's feed works and she eats it, not a problem. Some folks disguise the capsules in a grape or a prune or a peanut in a shell. Some folks use a small piece of carrot with the middle drilled out. Did I say "no treats"? I certainly didn't mean NO treats! This group probably has, collectively, the most pampered, babied, spoiled rotten horses out there. And we ALL give our horses treats!! But the treats have to be "safe" treats. If one of your kids were diabetic you wouldn't you feed him/her candy! Lots of safe treat ideas if you look in the files or do a search of the archives. Some ideas include, but are not limited to--celery, grapes, prunes, Tums, tictacs, sugar free mints, a peanut in the shell. All given within reason, of course! You might have to experiment and see what Teshan likes. Some folks make their own treats as there are very few safe treats available on the market. I honestly am not at all familiar with your products--stud mix, cool conditioner, etc. I've sent Pauline a note to help you with local products in your country. Hopefully she will chime in soon! In the meantime, can you feed bet pulp or soy hull pellets? You guys called them Maxisoy: http://www.maxisoy.com.au/equine_maxisoypellets.html Rinsed/soaked/rinsed BP is very safe, though an acquired taste for many horses. Make the changes slowly. Look in our files at the "picky eaters checklist" for helpful ideas. Post when you can. We all have lives to attend to! Keep trying to read the files, the website and the archives messages. You might pay particular attention to the old posts from Pauline (ponyjackpal) and Kylie (boofamaurice), both long time Aussie members who give lots of help to other Aussie members. Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA March 2011 EC Primary Response http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/ |
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takarri@...
---In EquineCushings@..., <kleonaptra@...> wrote : Hi Maggie, I was told by my vet it was not overly high, but after looking at the test results, it seems very high! Im hoping someone here can explain that too me. I have the results uploaded to our CH, all we tested for at this time was ACTH. Hi K,
Sorry it took me a while to touch base. You certainly sound like you have a lot on your plate with kids & critters. Great job on getting your case history up. It certainly helps. I would consider her ACTH to be high- I have seen worse though. In the southern hemisphere we are currently entering what is called our :"seasonal high" where the ACTH elevates naturally in horses. That still doesn't account for her higher than normal numbers. I've been reading that you are interested in trying Vitex & see that you have received repsonses to that. My take on it is this. Try it- you may get some benefit from it short term. It is not a cure for Cushings nor a treatment- but it may have a place in a supplementary way. It's good to help coats shed, _ though it never worked for my shaggy shetland. It's good for mares & those marey issues, but it doesn't inhibit the the benign growth of the pituitary gland. Only pergolide can do that.. at the correct dose.. delivered in a way that you can be guaranteed the horse is getting the full benefit of the dose. Anything else is just hit & miss. You have been given a lot of good information by the first responders & yes, it’s totally overwhelming & different & strange. The best thing is just to start making changes with one small thing & let if snowball from there.
Regarding APF- we can’t get that here- it has to be ordered from USA . I am looking into getting a similar herbal blend made here- it’s on that never ending list of things to do.
I've been reading through your posts & case history- she’s certainly been through a bit, poor lass.
A few of her issues- such as allergies etc, could, in hindsight, be symptomatic of early Cushings or IR- or both. The runny eyes/sinus etc. Getting her on a balanced diet should certainly help with that-. I’m not sure if it’s been addressed yet- but pretty much everything you are feeding her is not helping her situation. Are you able to transition her to the emergency diet until we can get that sorted out? I appreciate that it’s probably totally different to what you have been told from friends/vets/the feed store etc / what you’ve always done & what everyone else is doing/saying etc. The bottom line is that what we advocate works. Our primary concern is for the horse & its well being.
True about the pergolide- it is a prescription medication (S4) and can’t be dispensed without a script from a vet. The benefits of giving the horse a capsule vs trying to play mind games/chasey etc – is that it can be hidden in a “treat” I use a grape or a pitted prune for my boys. Some people use the shell of a peanut- you just need to find out what floats her boat,
I won’t overwhelm you anymore J Maggie & Mandy have done a great job of addressing your initial concerns. Please take it in board & continue to ask question, read the files. I’m located near Geelong Vic, so even though you’re a bit of distance away I can still help you source things & support you,
Pauline Jack,Spur Australia Aug 07
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boofamaurice@...
Hi Teshan In Australia we dont have the option to buy it from pharmacies, Ive checked that out already. I also contacted Ranvets and they cant sell it to me - even with a prescription - unless I am a vet. We actually can buy direct from pharmacies and some of us Aussies on here have and still do - we get a prescription from our vet and send it direct to the pharmacy - the one I and others have used is Bova Compounding. but here no grass means no paddock at all which = unhappy pony...And unhappy pony in this family means wrecked fences! I have ponies that I treat as insulin resistant due to their previous founder and cresty necks - they are turned out with a muzzle early morning and are very happy with that - it takes time for them to get use to the muzzle but it has worked out fine. They are then returned to their drylot for the duration of the day and let our again for some exercise in the afternoon - again muzzled. However I will never stop giving treats entirely. Portions may become smaller, they may get them further apart or only on a certain day, but seriously...Whats life without treats? Ive done rescue for years, no matter the species, you have to let them keep fighting. Depression is serious and affects their whole attitude to fighting their illness. Agree, there is nothing wrong with giving treats as long as it's the right treats for the relevant condition (in this case IR/PPID) - my treats for my suspected IR ponies are massages/scratches, their maxisoy and the odd piece of celery. They love it and both enjoyed it through their rehabilitation from founder. So, Ive cut the studmix in her feed (which is the sugery bit) and upped the cool conditioner which is a great maintenance feed. Ive dropped the pergolide to 2ml and I should have my vitex by next week. I will update her case history as needed. I forgot to mention she gets oaten chaff with dinner, but no green. I'm thinking of adding green to hide the flavours. If you goto Equi-Analytical you will see that Oaten Hay can be as high as 20% NSC hence the recommendation to take it out of the diet. One point of contention I know people will have..I put the pergolide in her feed. If I have to take a video to prove it to you all I will, this mare is 2hrs to catch and 2hrs to worm, not kidding. Anything you want to put in her mouth by syringe, she rears and plunges and tries to bolt. Read a recent Teshan Adventure here One of the benefits of having pergolide in a capsule is you can hide it in a small piece of carrot of some other safe food and give it to them that way - it's a horse by horse (case by case) basis. Capsules can be obtained from Bova Compounding via prescription from your vet. Your vet should be able to give you the script direct and then you can fax or email it to Bova. I am not familiar with Ranvet unfortunately. Hope that helps. Kylie and five rehabbed/rescued crew Western Downs QLD AUs Jan/Feb 2011
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