grain question


rjroberts0207@...
 

Has anyone ever fed Nutrena Senior feed to a Cushing horse? My vet said it is an OK choice for feed however after some reading on suggested feeds it sounds to me this is not recommended. I am feeding my mare 5 pounds of this per day. She has had significant muscle loss and has not responded to the 1mg of pergolide. We are now increasing her dose to 2mg/day.



mywisky@...
 

I too am dealing with significant muscle loss. First feed I could find was Nutrena Safe Choice Original (controlled starch) to start switching him over from his org. mill mix (haven't gotten there yet) also am feeding their Empower Boost for fat. Haven't seen any improvement but am also dealing with very bad kidney function so, he's on 1 Prascend ( 8 days now) trying to find a balance for weight gain & low protein levels because of the kidney issue, haven't gotten there yet. Am too looking for the magic formula to feed that he will eat.
Darlene/Pa.
2/2015


Nancy C
 

Hi rj and Darlene

Welcome to the group.

You'll get a formal welcome shortly but wanted to address this.

rj - It depends but I would say Nutrena is not the best choice and five pounds is a lot even for a 1000 lb horse.. Muscle wasting is very common with uncontrolled PPID.  Will be helpful to know where you are located.


Darlene

Need to know more about your horse.  See message above re uncontrolled PPID.  If you  horse is also IR, fat will worsen that condition.  Would love to hear how hi kidney function was diagnosed. If you need to worry about protein the first place to start is to check your hay.

As I said you'll hear more from Mandy or Maddie or Lavinia so hope you can hold on. 


Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
FACT: Minerals have direct effect on Insulin Resistance (IR) or its consequences. See  E. M. Kellon, VMD, Mineral Nutrition and Insulin Resistance, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 







---In EquineCushings@..., <mywisky@...> wrote :

I too am dealing with significant muscle loss.


mywisky@...
 

Nancy C in NH

 hope this is ok can't seem to reply on my email buttons

His history is

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Darlene%20and%20Wisky/  he is boarded in Clymer, NY  aslo forgot to add that his teeth were done 1-26-15
As you can see he is on presend 1 pill a day 9 days now  I have his test results from Cornell haven't scanned his last bloodwork & he hasn't been ACTH retested as he hasn't been on it all that long.  Also have scanned his org grain mix.  the Nutrena was the best I could come up with at the time & he is not liking it at all so is not switched over & have 5 bags of it.  Most of what we have around here is grain mills, Tractor Supply has some special feeds but they are not dependable to keep it stocked so you may be out for a while.  And for beet pulp, no he won't eat it, i ask a lot from the stable where he is at but soaking beet pulp can't be one of them, she works also beside keeping my 3 with hers.  No have not had hay tested, it's a timothy & grass mix & every bale can be different.
 
Thanks,
Darlene in PA
Feb 2015


fionn@...
 

Have you tried APF? It is amazing!  It helps with the muscle wasting and lethargy.   My horse does WAY better on it.  

Additionally, I spent years researching feed and finally found Stabul 1 from NuZu.  My horse has done great on this feed and I would highly recommend it!  Some of the other ones say they are low starch but aren’t low enough—at least they weren’t for us.  

Michelle Peck Williams & Fionn
Lexington, Kentucky USA
Joined June 2012
fionn@...

Case history:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory5/files/Michelle%20Peck%20Williams/

Photo album: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/photos/album/867903845/pic/list

Foot Photo album: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHoof/photos/album/1767999070/pic/list






On Feb 19, 2015, at 11:29 AM, mywisky@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:


I too am dealing with significant muscle loss. First feed I could find was Nutrena Safe Choice Original (controlled starch) to start switching him over from his org. mill mix (haven't gotten there yet) also am feeding their Empower Boost for fat. Haven't seen any improvement but am also dealing with very bad kidney function so, he's on 1 Prascend ( 8 days now) trying to find a balance for weight gain & low protein levels because of the kidney issue, haven't gotten there yet. Am too looking for the magic formula to feed that he will eat.
Darlene/Pa.
2/2015



 

>> Have you tried APF? It is amazing!<<

What is APF?

Cynthia Boriskin from CA
Tucker 10/10



On Saturday, February 21, 2015 8:42 AM, "Michelle Peck Williams fionn@... [EquineCushings]" wrote:
 




Have you tried APF? It is amazing!  It helps with the muscle wasting and lethargy.   My horse does WAY better on it.  

Additionally, I spent years researching feed and finally found Stabul 1 from NuZu.  My horse has done great on this feed and I would highly recommend it!  Some of the other ones say they are low starch but aren’t low enough—at least they weren’t for us.  

Michelle Peck Williams & Fionn
Lexington, Kentucky USA
Joined June 2012
fionn@...

Case history:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory5/files/Michelle%20Peck%20Williams/

Photo album: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/photos/album/867903845/pic/list

Foot Photo album: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHoof/photos/album/1767999070/pic/list






On Feb 19, 2015, at 11:29 AM, mywisky@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:


I too am dealing with significant muscle loss. First feed I could find was Nutrena Safe Choice Original (controlled starch) to start switching him over from his org. mill mix (haven't gotten there yet) also am feeding their Empower Boost for fat. Haven't seen any improvement but am also dealing with very bad kidney function so, he's on 1 Prascend ( 8 days now) trying to find a balance for weight gain & low protein levels because of the kidney issue, haven't gotten there yet. Am too looking for the magic formula to feed that he will eat.
Darlene/Pa.
2/2015







Leigh Jacobs
 

Hi RJ,
My old guy gets 1 lb Triple Crown Lite or Low Starch along with Mountain Sunrise Timothy pellets and beet pulp, Kirkland Mediterranean Blend oil (6-8 oz) and 1 scoop(25-30gm) of whey protein for muscle. Including free access to grass hay, everything other than the protein is to keep weight on Ace.  The protein was specifically added when I saw it suggested on one of the discussions here.  My complaint was seeing a loss of muscle along his spine and withers.  In the year that Ace has received this, his whole back has come back up and I have been able to get some muscle back into his hind quarters. I would stay away from any product that uses molasses, especially if my horse is prone to Cushing's driven IR and laminitis.
 Leigh, Ace and Shadow
AZ 2011




On Saturday, February 21, 2015 11:37 PM, "cynthia boriskin cboriskin@... [EquineCushings]" wrote:


 
>> Have you tried APF? It is amazing!<<

What is APF?

Cynthia Boriskin from CA
Tucker 10/10



On Saturday, February 21, 2015 8:42 AM, "Michelle Peck Williams fionn@... [EquineCushings]" wrote:
 




Have you tried APF? It is amazing!  It helps with the muscle wasting and lethargy.   My horse does WAY better on it.  

Additionally, I spent years researching feed and finally found Stabul 1 from NuZu.  My horse has done great on this feed and I would highly recommend it!  Some of the other ones say they are low starch but aren’t low enough—at least they weren’t for us.  

Michelle Peck Williams & Fionn
Lexington, Kentucky USA
Joined June 2012
fionn@...

Case history:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory5/files/Michelle%20Peck%20Williams/

Photo album: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/photos/album/867903845/pic/list

Foot Photo album: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHoof/photos/album/1767999070/pic/list






On Feb 19, 2015, at 11:29 AM, mywisky@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:


I too am dealing with significant muscle loss. First feed I could find was Nutrena Safe Choice Original (controlled starch) to start switching him over from his org. mill mix (haven't gotten there yet) also am feeding their Empower Boost for fat. Haven't seen any improvement but am also dealing with very bad kidney function so, he's on 1 Prascend ( 8 days now) trying to find a balance for weight gain & low protein levels because of the kidney issue, haven't gotten there yet. Am too looking for the magic formula to feed that he will eat.
Darlene/Pa.
2/2015









Lorna Cane
 

Hi Cynthia,
>What is APF?

Go here in our Files:


Scroll down to APF.

Help yourself to all the other information-packed items in our Files section.


  Lorna in Ontario,Canada

ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup







Lorna Cane
 

Hi Leigh,


>My old guy gets 1 lb Triple Crown Lite or Low Starch along with Mountain Sunrise Timothy pellets and beet pulp, Kirkland Mediterranean Blend oil (6-8 oz) and 1 scoop(25-30gm) of whey protein for muscle. Including free access to grass hay, everything other than the protein is to keep weight on Ace. 

Can you please add your case history to your signature when you post.

The above diet should not be recommended for an IR horse.I'm confused,especially by the addition of 'free access to grass'. Please clarify, especially for new members reading the messages.

Delete the old messages from your own message.



Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup








fionn@...
 

http://www.thrivingpets.com/index.php/apf-advanced-protection-formula.html

I can’t explain the science for why it works (there are many on here who can), but I can attest to it working for my horse.  It helps with the muscle wasting and lethargy.

Michelle Peck Williams & Fionn
Lexington, Kentucky USA
Joined June 2012
fionn@...

Case history:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory5/files/Michelle%20Peck%20Williams/

Photo album: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/photos/album/867903845/pic/list

Foot Photo album: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHoof/photos/album/1767999070/pic/list


On Feb 22, 2015, at 1:37 AM, cynthia boriskin cboriskin@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:


>> Have you tried APF? It is amazing!<<

What is APF?

Cynthia Boriskin from CA
Tucker 10/10



On Saturday, February 21, 2015 8:42 AM, "Michelle Peck Williams fionn@... [EquineCushings]" <EquineCushings@...> wrote:
 



Leigh Jacobs
 

Hi Lorna,
I have never been successful in being able to add Ace's or Shadow's case histories to this group. As for the grass, that was my mistake. He has access to Bermuda grass hay. That diet was pretty much designed by one of the nutritionists in this group. The only reason I use Triple Crown light is to get all of the herbs, sups and medications into Ace. What about this diet would you not use to give to an IR horse?
Thank you,
Leigh. Ace, & Shadow
Az 2011
Sorry! Can't seem to delete anything when using my phone!
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 22, 2015, at 4:27 AM, windybriars@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:

 

Hi Leigh,



>My old guy gets 1 lb Triple Crown Lite or Low Starch along with Mountain Sunrise Timothy pellets and beet pulp, Kirkland Mediterranean Blend oil (6-8 oz) and 1 scoop(25-30gm) of whey protein for muscle. Including free access to grass hay, everything other than the protein is to keep weight on Ace. 

Can you please add your case history to your signature when you post.

The above diet should not be recommended for an IR horse.I'm confused,especially by the addition of 'free access to grass'. Please clarify, especially for new members reading the messages.

Delete the old messages from your own message.



Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup








Darlene Peterson <mywisky@...>
 

Hello Michelle,
ahh which APF are you talking about there seem to be several
 
Darlene in Pa
2/2015

Re: grain question

Sat Feb 21, 2015 8:42 am (PST) . Posted by:

"Michelle Peck Williams" mpw709

Have you tried APF? It is amazing! It helps with the muscle wasting and lethargy. My horse does WAY better on it.

Additionally, I spent years researching feed and finally found Stabul 1 from NuZu. My horse has done great on this feed and I would highly recommend it! Some of the other ones say they are low starch but aren’t low enough—at least they weren’t for us.

Michelle Peck Williams & Fionn
Lexington, Kentucky USA
Joined June 2012
fionn@...


 

Would you use APF daily or when needed? The directions on the bottle was not clear for performance horses. 

Cynthia from CA
Tucker 10/10

Sent from my iPad


Nancy C
 

Hi Leigh

I am going to send you a copy of the CH Form in word and .pdf to the equinesrfun yahoo email.  If you fill them out please, and send back to me I will upload in  a fold for you.

Having Case Histories is not only helpful for you going forward but significantly helps the ECIR Group.

I will send them to your yahoo email address. You can send them back to me at threecatfarm "at"cyberpine "dot" net.

Many, many thanks in advance.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
FACT: To diagnose IR, the ECIR Group recommends a non-fasted, simple blood draw for serum insulin, glucose and leptin and the use of VA Polytechnic Proxies. See E. M. Kellon, VMD, Diagnosis of Insulin Resistance and PPID, 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, www.ecirhorse.org
IR Calculator

 




---In EquineCushings@..., <equinesrfun@...> wrote :

Hi Lorna,
I have never been successful in being able to add Ace's or Shadow's case histories to this group.








fionn@...
 

I can’t ever remember which name is which but the one I use is the more expensive one, because it has some stuff to help their stomach too.

Michelle Peck Williams & Fionn
Lexington, Kentucky USA
Joined June 2012
fionn@...

Case history:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory5/files/Michelle%20Peck%20Williams/

Photo album: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/photos/album/867903845/pic/list

Foot Photo album: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHoof/photos/album/1767999070/pic/list


On Feb 22, 2015, at 10:38 AM, Darlene Peterson mywisky@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:


Hello Michelle,
ahh which APF are you talking about there seem to be several


Darlene Peterson <mywisky@...>
 

Wisky can't have the one with alfalfa think I saw one with that in it.  will check the others out
 
question: how can senior feeds have so much beet pulp in them along with the molasses & it can be fed straight out of the bag, pulp on the other hand has to be soaked which mine flatly refuses to eat (and I board so that is kinda a problem in itself), then you have the speed beet treats which don't have to be soaked. Wisk needs weight badly, cushings (yep on Prascend) & kidney so he can't have alfalfa. I just can't wrap my head around the whole concept of the beet thing. You folks over there seem to have great products to choose from & your horse eat soaked beet.
 
Darlene/Pa.
2/2015
 
Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:34 am (PST) . Posted by:

"Michelle Peck Williams" mpw709

I can’t ever remember which name is which but the one I use is the more expensive one, because it has some stuff to help their stomach too.

Michelle Peck Williams & Fionn
Lexington, Kentucky USA
Joined June 2012
fionn@...

Case history: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory5/files/Michelle%20Peck%20Williams/

Photo album: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/photos/album/867903845/pic/list

Foot Photo album: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHoof/photos/album/1767999070/pic/list

> On Feb 22, 2015, at 10:38 AM, Darlene Peterson mywisky@... [EquineCushings] wrote:
>
>
> Hello Michelle,
> ahh which APF are you talking about there seem to be several


fionn@...
 

Believe it or not, I live in Kentucky, the so-called “Horse Capital of the World” and it was a NIGHTMARE to find feed, supplements, the right hay and a vet that didn’t think “keep him in and give him a flake in the morning and a flake at night” was the right thing to do and a farm that would let him have a dry lot and slow feeder.  In fact, we had to move from our last farm because they decided that winter grass would be “fine” and I should just throw him out there in a muzzle 7 hours a day (you’d have to staple it to his head to keep it on more than 5 minutes).  I’m currently buying Stabul 1 from a HARDWARE store 20 miles away and ordering everything else online.  We have two of the leading vet clinics in America (allegedly) and it took two years to find an independent vet who would let us get compounded pergolide.  If you struggle here, you struggle anywhere (opposite of NY, NY I guess)—it’s just that hard for all of us.

Should have known, any state whose nickname is the Blue GRASS State has to be bad for a Cushing’s horse.

Michelle Peck Williams & Fionn
Lexington, Kentucky USA
Joined June 2012
fionn@...

Case history:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory5/files/Michelle%20Peck%20Williams/

Photo album: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/photos/album/867903845/pic/list

Foot Photo album: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHoof/photos/album/1767999070/pic/list

On Feb 22, 2015, at 4:54 PM, Darlene Peterson mywisky@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:


Wisky can't have the one with alfalfa think I saw one with that in it.  will check the others out
 
question: how can senior feeds have so much beet pulp in them along with the molasses & it can be fed straight out of the bag, pulp on the other hand has to be soaked which mine flatly refuses to eat (and I board so that is kinda a problem in itself), then you have the speed beet treats which don't have to be soaked. Wisk needs weight badly, cushings (yep on Prascend) & kidney so he can't have alfalfa. I just can't wrap my head around the whole concept of the beet thing. You folks over there seem to have great products to choose from & your horse eat soaked beet.
 
Darlene/Pa.
2/2015
 


rjroberts0207@...
 

After a conversation with my vet I think I will be switching to Wellsolve. I am concerned taking her off the Nutrena grain because I have her on this to try and at least maintain her weight and not lose any more. Everything I read on Wellsolve talks about weight loss and weight control. My mare is not IR. I am located in Wisconsin and the winter has been hard on her.  I recently increased her Prascend to 2mg from 1mg. She is terribly lethargic and not eating much at all. It is so hard to see her like this. Any advice on how to get her through this lethargy? Will it resolve spontaneously if I just give it time?
Any suggestions are appreciated
Rita


janieclougher@...
 

Hi, Rita - I can speak from experience with older horses and lack of control of Cushings.  First off - I did some searches on the list, and can't find any other posts or more information about your mare (doesn't mean the info isn't there - just means I can't access it, due to Neo's quirks.) One of my Cushings guys will lose weight and muscle in the face of any foods stuffed into him if his pergolide dose is not high enough. Another member's mare will become lethargic and go off food if her pergolide dose is not high enough. Other members find if the pergolide dose is too high in summer (after the necessary increase in dose during the seasonal ACTH rise in fall) that their horses are lethargic and off food.

Weight loss differentials:  Uncontrolled Cushings; Insulin Resistance; organ dysfunction (kidney, liver, gut); parasites; teeth; lack of muscle strength to adequately grind forage;

Lethargy and reduced appetite differentials: ulcers, infection, pain, too little pergolide, too much pergolide, neoplasia, impaction colic.

So, if the Cushings is not controlled, no amount of Wellsolve will really help; or it might help a tad, but then make your mare more prone to laminitis.

Sorry if you have answered this before, but: do you have a firm diagnosis? Can you please post bloodwork results?  To have a baseline on weight/muscle loss, one needs to know ACTH, glucose, leptin, insulin, and a CBC plus chemistry panel.

Trust me, I have been there before. Even with my knowledge as a vet, and my experience with this list, when Merlin started losing weight 2 years ago, I first thought: Heavens! More food! In fact, once I re-tested the ACTH and realized I needed to increase the pergolide, his weight and topline returned to normal.

Hope this info helps!




---In EquineCushings@..., <rjroberts0207@...> wrote :

After a conversation with my vet I think I will be switching to Wellsolve. I am concerned taking her off the Nutrena grain because I have her on this to try and at least maintain her weight and not lose any more. Everything I read on Wellsolve talks about weight loss and weight control. My mare is not IR. I am located in Wisconsin and the winter has been hard on her.  I recently increased her Prascend to 2mg from 1mg. She is terribly lethargic and not eating much at all. It is so hard to see her like this. Any advice on how to get her through this lethargy? Will it resolve spontaneously if I just give it time?
Any suggestions are appreciated
Rita


Maggie
 

Hi Rita,

Welcome to the group!  I think you fell through the cracks and didn't get a full welcome yet!  I see that Jaini has already given you some great information.  To help sort out the details and get specific answers to your questions about your horse, we need more details about her.  If you would join ECH8, one of our sister sites where we store case histories and fill out a case history (CH) on her, it will give us the details we need to help you better.  Here's a link to that group.  You will need to join it to fill out a CH and if you have any trouble, just let us know and we will send you an invite.


Meanwhile, I will tell you about our philosophy called DDT/E.  That's short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

Diagnosis:  I see in what I think was your initial post, that you have a Cushing's (PPID) horse.  How was your horse diagnosed?  Like Jaini said, we really need to see the bloodwork.  You can post a hard copy of any labs that you've done in your CH folder.  There is also a spot in the CH form to fill in all the details about the lab work that you have done.  A horse can have just PPID, just IR or both PPID and IR (or neither, of course).   PPID and IR have some similar and overlapping symptoms, so sometimes the diagnosis is a little tricky.  The tests to sort out whether you are dealing with just PPID, just IR, or both are these 4:  ACTH, insulin, glucose and leptin.  And I bow to Jaini's expertise about adding the CBC and Chemistry panel as well to help explain the weight/muscle loss.  

The reason it's so important to get a complete diagnosis is that PPID is treated with medicine and IR is treated with diet.  A horse that has both would need not just pergolide, but also a carefully controlled low sugar starch diet to control the IR as well.  IR is very common in PPID horses because a high ACTH drives the insulin up, so we recommend that you start the emergency diet until you can get things sorted out.  I see in your latest post that you say that your horse is not IR.  Did you labwork confirm that?  OK, on to the Diet, where I see you are having some questions.

Diet:  The diet that we recommend is a forage based low sugar starch (tested to be under 10% sugar+starch) low fat (4% or under) mineral balanced diet.  We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% sugar+starch, with minerals added to balance the hay to the analysis and to replace what is lost during the hay curing process, we add Vitamin E and ground flax seed.  This diet is crucial for an IR horse, but it also supports the delicate immune system of the PPID horse.  A great way to help put weight on an underweight horse (considering that you have a firm diagnosis in place and the ACTH is under control), is with rinsed/soaked/rinsed NON-molasses beet pulp.  It has about 1.5x as many calories as hay and you can actually replace up to about 1/3 of the the hay in your diet with it.  If your horse has never eaten BP, it's a different "mouth feel"  that may take some getting used to.  Another great product is Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance cubes (ODTB's).  These are low sugar starch hay with the minerals balance according to Dr Kellon's recommendations.  They also contain some beet pulp and are more calorie dense than hay.  Both of these products are also great safe carriers for your emergency diet additives, as well as your balancing minerals once you get your hay tested.

Until you get your hay tested, we recommend that you start your horse on the emergency diet.  Details of the emergency diet can be found on our website here:  http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview/ddt-diet  The emergency diet is too be used only temporarily until you can get your hay tested and balanced.  We like to send our hay for analysis to this lab.  You want the #603, trainers' package for $54.  Once you get your hay tested, we will help you to get your diet balanced.


As important as what you do feed on the IR diet is what you DON'T feed!  No grain, no pelleted or senior feeds, no pasture (even dead looking grass), no sugary treats (including carrots and apples), no molasses.  If your hay is untested you should be soaking it for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water to remove up to about 30% of the sugar content.  Make sure that you dump the sugary water where the horse(s) can't get too it.

Trim:  A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot.  Often, the trim is the last piece of the puzzle to fall into place.  You are welcome to post pictures of your horse's feet in the PHOTOS section of ECH8.  You don't mention if your horse is footsore, but boots and pads would be in order for a footsore horse.  Here's a website that shows how to take good hoof pictures:  http://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/good-hoof-photos.html 

Exercise:  The best IR buster there is, but a laminitic or footsore horse should never be forced to move!  

Jaini gave you some great information about why your horse's appetite may be lacking.  Combined with the lethargy you are seeing, I have one more thought.  Did you wean her on to the pergolide slowly, or did you start at the full 1 mg and increase directly to 2 mgs?  Did the lethargy and decreased appetite start before or after you started the pergolide?  And why did you increase from 1mg to 2mg--was that based on lab work or symptoms? Some, but not all horses experience what we call the 'pergolide veil" (depression, lack of appetite) when first starting on the drug.  To help avoid this we recommend that you wean your horse onto the drug slowly, starting with 0.25mg for 3 or 4 days and increasing by 0.25mg every 3 or 4 days until you reach your target dose.  Also, there is great product called  APF that can really help with the pergolide veil.  You can buy it a some local tack and feed stores, and also at online catalogs or on their website.  Read more about APF here: http://www.auburnlabs.com/html/eqProdGen.html   If the depression and lack of appetite that you are seeing is from the pergolide you should see some great results using the APF .  Again seeing the lab work and knowing more details would really help us to give you more specific guidance.

OK, Rita.  That about wraps up the basics of our DDT/E philosophy.  There is LOTS more information in our website (http://ecirhorse.org/ ), in our files, and in the archived messages.  Lots of reading!  One file that you may find particularly informative is the Pergolide 101 file.  It's the 4th file down in this folder:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/Drugs%2C%20Pergolide%2C%20Cushings%20Disease%20Treatments/ 

And also there's a great deal of information on Cushing's in this file:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/Cushings%20Disease%20-%20PPID/ 

We ask all members to sign their name, date of joining and general location each time they post.  And then once you get you CH filled out, if you could please add a link to it in your signature as well.  It really helps the volunteers to find your information faster and thus answer your questions faster.  Thanks!  Don't hesitate to ask any further questions that you have.

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
EC Primary Response
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/