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Phyto-Quench substitute & response to Nancy

Coral Richline
 

Y'all- PQ is out of stock. I had Po on it to manage pain. Should I try ALCAR instead since I can't get PQ?


Nancy- thanks for the response. I'm glad I'm not the only one that found the messages confusing! Hopefully Dr. Kellon will weigh in so I have a clear answer. Re: hay - soaking the hay should help with the high starch numbers though, correct? Soaking should knock down sugars AND starches I thought. 


Kathy is helping me balance his diet so I'm good there. If I can get him sound after mineral balancing, I'll have the Dental Vet out again to do his teeth and try the domatidine if Kellon says it's ok. 


I am so grateful for this group and for people willing to help balance minerals. And I plan on attending the conference in November!


Coral & Po

Sept 2013

Corpus Christi


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Coral%20and%20Poseido/
Nancy C
 

Soaking only lowers ESC, not starch.

The PQ is on order, supposedly 200 containers.  If you call you can pre-order  so it will be shipeed when it comes in.

ALCAR may help you.

Looking forward to meeting you in November!

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
FACT: Standing on cement significantly reduces blood flow to the equine foot.
See R. M. Bowker, VMD, PhD, Nerves, Nerves, Nerves: Why Are They So Important To The Horse?  2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, www.ecirhorse.org
and
See RM Bowker, VMD, PhD, The Vascular Cushion Of The Frog What Does It Do?  2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 






---In EquineCushings@..., <coralrenee@...> wrote :

Y'all- PQ is out of stock. I had Po on it to manage pain. Should I try ALCAR instead since I can't get PQ?




https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Coral%20and%20Poseido/
Coral Richline
 

Well ... crud. 

So, if soaking doesn't lower starch, even if I balance his diet, he'll still continue to be in pain until I can find a hay with lower starch? What's an appropriate number I should look for for bermudagrass varieties? Do I definitely need to look for less than 10% starch?

I'll try ALCAR till I can get PQ.

Thanks!

Coral & Po
Sept 2013
Corpus Christi
beverly meyer
 

I've been using Meadow Acres "Anti-Inflammatory".  I was underdosing it for a long time but am using full dose now and it seems to help...
Do these ingredients sound OK?
Chamomile, White Willow, Burdock, Devils Claw, Celery Seed, Alfalfa, Hawthorne Berry and Milk Thistle.
Phyto-Quench is mostly Vitamin C, Bioflavonoids and Garlic, so I've never understood why this product is so popular here. Aren't we to avoid Garlic and isn't Vitamin C generally not suggested?  I think MoveEase is high in Bioflavonoids already - the yellow color is a give-away for Quercitin, IMO.
Thanks for the clarification and hope this helps Po.
Beverly 6/14
 

  


				
				
				
			

			
			

				
	


	
	

		
			

				

				

				
					

						

							
							
						

					

				

			
			

				

					

				

			

			
				
		
		

		
		
	



		
			

	
	

		
			
			

			
			
			

				

					


						
							
								
	
		
			
		
		
  
	
    Nancy C
	

	

							
						
					

					

						
							


						
						 
						
							
							
						
						
					

				

			

			

			

				
PQ is popular because it works. The amount of garlic and Vit C in PQ is not generally a problem, especially since the PQ is recommended to be used to work with acute issues, while working on trim and new hoof growth to address pain from rotation or abscess and altered hoof form.

Lots of discussion about PQ in the archives. 

You can check with My Best Horse to get more info about Mov-ese but I'll bet my keyboard it  is not Quercitin.

Also lots more info in the archives. 

You are probably seeing the biggest bang from Devil's claw in your supplement with some help from white willow.  Will have to leave the rest to others.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
FACT: The VA Polytechnic Pony Study is the only study to look at IR and laminitis under natural conditions. See  E. M. Kellon, VMD, Diagnosis of Insulin Resistance and PPID, 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.
  




---In EquineCushings@..., <bmeyer@...> wrote :


I

Phyto-Quench is mostly Vitamin C, Bioflavonoids and Garlic, so
I've never understood why this product is so popular here. 



				
				
				
			

			
			

				
	


	
	

		
			

				

				

				
					

						

							
							
						

					

				

			
			

				

					

				

			

			
				
		
		

		
		
	



		
			

	
	

		
			
			

			
			
			

				

					


						
							
								
	
		
			
		
		
  
	
    beverly meyer
	

	

							
						
					

					

						
							


						
						 
						
							
							
						
						
					

				

			

			

			

				

  
  
    Hi Nancy,

    Devil's Claw alone never did much for Ginger, but yes it is the 4th
    ingredient in the Meadow Acres "Anti-Inflammatory".

    So the other herbs sound ok for an IR pony?

    MovEase gives no info on their product, but Phyto Quench and other
    herbal blends that are yellow are often (usually?) Bioflavonoids
    based.  Rutin, Hesperidin, Quercitin and the like are the yellow
    color in our foods. 

    Why would it be odd for MovEase to contain Quercitin?  Seems like a
    natural to me. Can you expand on that?

    Here's what one Horse's Mouth file says about Movease (full link is
    below):

    What is Mov-Ease

    

    Mov-Ease is a proprietary blend of
      bioflavonoids. It's composed of Chinese herbs with proven
      anti-inflammatory effects. There are no fillers, nor other added
      ingredients, just bioflavonoids. It does not contain MSM,
      chondroitin sulfate, HA, glucosamine, nor devils claw.

    

    It is safe for insulin resistant and/or PPID
      horses. It is also safe for DSLD horses and can be used along with
      jiaogulan and AAKG.

    

    Bioflavonoids have been well-studied for
      years. The mechanism of action of the class of supplements that
      are bioflavonoids are well documented. Wikipedia has a pretty good
      explanation of the mechanism of action of bioflavonoids here:

    

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flavonoid

    

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Thehorsemouth/conversations/topics/3961

    Thanks,

    Beverly 6/14

    

    
-- 


  


				
				
				
			

			
			

				
	


	
	

		
			

				

				

				
					

						

							
							
						

					

				

			
			

				

					

				

			

			
				
		
		

		
		
	



		
			

	
	

		
			
			

			
			
			

				

					


						
							
								
	
		
			
		
		
  
	
    Nancy C
	

	

							
						
					

					

						
							


						
						 
						
							
							
						
						
					

				

			

			

			

				
Hi Beverly

You forgot this part of the  archived message from Dr Kellon's ezine

Dr. Kellon is familiar with the ingredients and it has been featured in 
Horse Journal, getting the best product for its category.



Mov-Ease is ok with:

Jiaogulan, APF (APF Pro, APF Plus), Ginseng, Thyro L, Chondroitin sulfate, HA, Glucosamine, AAKG, ALCAR



It is not indicated with: 

Quercetin, Curcumin, Milk thistle, Boswellia, Devils Claw, Cats Claw, Pine Bark extract

As those may dilute the mechanism of action



Archive search may help you Beverly.  Bioflavonoids, PQ, Mov-ease all discussed many times.


Equine Cushings and Insulin Resistance
  
I use Mov-ease. Best to talk with My Best Horse for any other questions.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

FACT: Minerals have direct effect on Insulin Resistance (IR) or its consequences. See  E. M. Kellon, VMD, Mineral Nutrition and Insulin Resistance, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.
  


-- 

 


 
 

				
				
				
			

			
			

				
	


	
	

		
			

				

				

				
					

						

							
							
						

					

				

			
			

				

					

				

			

			
				
		
		

		
		
	



		
			

	
	

		
			
			

			
			
			

				

					


						
							
								
	
		
			
		
		
  
	
    Lavinia Fiscaletti
	

	

							
						
					

					

						
							


						
						 
						
							
							
						
						
					

				

			

			

			

				
Hi Beverly,

That link to THM post lists Quercitin as something to avoid using with Mov-Ease as Quercitin could dilute it's mode of action. 

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team

>>>>>>>>>> 

Why would it be odd for MovEase to contain Quercitin?


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Thehorsemouth/conversations/topics/3961
  



 

				
				
				
			

			
			

				
	


	
	

		
			

				

				

				
					

						

							
							
						

					

				

			
			

				

					

				

			

			
				
		
		

		
		
	



		
			

	
	

		
			
			

			
			
			

				

					


						
							
								
	
		
			
		
		
  
	
    Lavinia Fiscaletti
	

	

							
						
					

					

						
							


						
						 
						
							
							
						
						
					

				

			

			

			

				
Hi Beverly,

Is Ginger on Mov-Ease? If so, the Meadowsweet Acres Anti-inflammatory would be contra-indicated as it contains Devil's Claw and Milk Thistle, which could dilute the Mov-Ease mode of action. As white willow is similar in action to aspirin, there may also be a synergistic affect there.

We also advise caution with alfalfa for IR horses.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


				
				
				
			

			
			

				
	


	
	

		
			

				

				

				
					

						

							
							
						

					

				

			
			

				

					

				

			

			
				
		
		

		
		
	



		
			

	
	

		
			
			

			
			
			

				

					


						
							
								
	
		
			
		
		
  
	
    beverly meyer
	

	

							
						
					

					

						
							


						
						 
						
							
							
						
						
					

				

			

			

			

				
Thanks to the Moderators working on my poorly worded questions on bioflavonoids.
I've spent many hours looking at Movease , PhytoQuench, the Meadowseet Acres Anti-Inflammatory product I use and have mentioned, and others in NEO files, the web and my own Herbology or Nutrition textbooks.  I cannot find any studies that say what I hear here.
That basically:  "Quercitin as something to avoid using with Mov-Ease as Quercitin could dilute it's mode of action".  Or even more broadly, also stated yesterday: "MovEase is not indicated with: Quercetin, Curcumin, Milk thistle, Boswellia, Devils Claw, Cats Claw, Pine Bark extract. As those may dilute the mechanism of action" .
Can anyone direct me to the studies on Quercitin or Curcumin Bioflavonoids "diluting the action" of other bioflavonoids or herbs? I use both of these in my clinic daily and am awed at their effectiveness on allergies and inflammation.  What study shows they dilute MovEase secret ingredients?
Thanks for the research and guidance.
Beverly 6/14
Beverly Texas

				
				
				
			

			
			

				
	


	
	

		
			

				

				

				
					

						

							
							
						

					

				

			
			

				

					

				

			

			
				
		
		

		
		
	



		
			

	
	

		
			
			

			
			
			

				

					


						
							
								
	
		
			
		
		
  
	
    Nancy C
	

	

							
						
					

					

						
							


						
						 
						
							
							
						
						
					

				

			

			

			

				
Hi Beverly

Again, since it is proprietary, recommend calling/contacting My Best Horse.  Let us know what you find out.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Invest in the health of your horse and help ECIR Group nonprofit at the same time! Hear Drs Kellon, Bowker and more, in eight hours of great info and informative Q&A from 2013 NO Laminitis! Conference. 

Conference Proceedings & Recordings
  






---In EquineCushings@..., <bmeyer@...> wrote :

What study shows they dilute MovEase 

secret ingredients?



				
				
				
			

			
			

				
	


	
	

		
			

				

				

				
					

						

							
							
						

					

				

			
			

				

					

				

			

			
				
		
		

		
		
	



		
			

	
	

		
			
			

			
			
			

				

					


						
							
								
	
		
			
		
		
  
	
    Nancy C
	

	

							
						
					

					

						
							


						
						 
						
							
							
						
						
					

				

			

			

			

				
Please allow me to add that it is not unusual to hear things on and from this group that you don't her anywhere else.  Thank the heavens.

Sometimes the research is just wrong, or poorly thought out, or making assumptions and correlations out of a belief system. 

Sometimes, as with fructan vs simple sugar, or with seasonal rise, or special issues for mares, or IR itself,  or many, many other areas, the research eventually catches up to what members have reported here for years from their actual, well-tracked and recorded experiences.


Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
FACT:  With over 12,000 members and thousands of detailed case histories the ECIR Group has made it possible to spot patterns, many of which have been confirmed later by formal study.  See  E. M. Kellon, VMD, The Internet as an Epidemiological Tool, 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.
  






---In EquineCushings@..., <bmeyer@...> wrote :

 I cannot find any studies that say what I hear here


				
				
				
			

			
			

				
	


	
	

		
			

				

				

				
					

						

							
							
						

					

				

			
			

				

					

				

			

			
				
		
		

		
		
	



		
			

	
	

		
			
			

			
			
			

				

					


						
							
								
	
		
			
		
		
  
	
    Eleanor Kellon, VMD
	

	

							
						
					

					

						
							


						
						 
						
							
							
						
						
					

				

			

			

			

				



---In EquineCushings@..., <bmeyer@...> wrote :


Can anyone direct me to the studies on Quercitin or Curcumin 

Bioflavonoids "diluting the action" of other bioflavonoids or herbs?

= = = = = = = = = =

The precaution not to mix certain bioflavonoids is based on the fact there are hundreds, if not more, of these chemicals in nature and their activity depends on their structure.  While structural similarities might give many different bioflavonoid compounds the ability to interact with the same enzymes or DNA, they will not all have equivalent effects.  When a compound is identified that has a particularly potent effect on a particular function, it is ridiculous to mix that with a similar chemical compound unless you know for sure the mixture will give an enhanced effect rather than a diminished one.  More often than not the effect of a combination will be unknown, hence the precaution.

To begin to understand this, start here:

http://pharmrev.aspetjournals.org/content/52/4/673.long

Yellow does NOT automatically = quercitin.  Then name flavonoid (aka bioflavonoid) derives from the Latin flavus, which means yellow.  The whole class is yellow.  For example, here's rutin:

http://www.zd-bio.com/en/proview.asp?id=3

Observations (aka anecdotes) by any individual, whether you, or me, or anyone else, have limited value in their raw form. What gives them more credence is things like control of extraneous factors, statistics and sheer numbers. If you know of 20 cases where X + Y had no harmful effects compared to X or Y alone, but someone else has 200, or 2000 cases, where the combination was not as effective, what would the take home message be?  If you knew from knowledge about their structure that X and Y could bind to a particular enzyme and the effect of X was very potent but the effect of Y was unknown or weaker, would you play around with this in a clinical case?

All we are doing here is trying to share the most accurate information we have based on both over a decade of experience with horses with these conditions and the scientific literature.  If you have question or a challenge that's great, but it's up to you to back up your claim with the literature or a large equine database, not up to us to dispute it.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001
 

				
				
				
			

			
			

				
	


	
	

		
			

				

				

				
					

						

							
							
						

					

				

			
			

				

					

				

			

			
				
		
		

		
		
	



		
			

	
	

		
			
			

			
			
			

				

					


						
							
								
	
		
			
		
		
  
	
    beverly meyer
	

	

							
						
					

					

						
							


						
						 
						
							
							
						
						
					

				

			

			

			

				
Thanks Dr. Kellon. I totally agree.
Beverly 6/14

-- 
Beverly Meyer, MBA
Clinical and Holistic Nutritionist
www.ondietandhealth.com
Facebook:  Beverly Meyer on Diet and Health
Radio:  Primal Diet - Modern Health

				
				
				
			

			
			

				
	


	
	

		
			

				

				

				
					

						

							
							
						

					

				

			
			

				

					

				

			

			
				
		
		

		
		
	



		
			

	
	

		
			
			

			
			
			

				

					


						
							
								
	
		
			
		
		
  
	
    beverly meyer
	

	

							
						
					

					

						
							


						
						 
						
							
							
						
						
					

				

			

			

			

				
Oops, I didn't finish my sentence before...
I meant to write - thanks Dr. Kellon. I totally agree about not adding more herbs than needed.  If I read this right, you're saying that "diluting the action" might mean giving 2 herbs/substances if 1 is all that's needed, and that 2 might not be studied together as one alone is.
In Chinese Medicine we might use the term "diluting the action" slightly differently.  As in, treating a "Fire" condition such as inflammation, heat and fever with cooling "Water" herbs, but then also giving a Fire herb.  Which would dilute the action of the prescribed Cooling herbs!
Glad to understand the difference in meaning.
Beverly 6/14

				
				
				
			

			
			

				
	


	
	

		
			

				

				

				
					

						

							
							
						

					

				

			
			

				

					

				

			

			
				
		
		

		
		
	



		
	

	

		
		
		
		
		
	

	

		
		
		
		
		
	

	
	

		
		
		
		
	



	

		
		
		
		
		
		
	

	

		

			
	
		

			

				

					
						
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