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Need Help ( Jasper's really sore 8 hours after joint injections )

corrine haffner
 

Hi 


Sorry to post again here but jasper's come up extremely sore shifting his weight from LF to RF laying down more just not comfortable at all. Had Fetlocks injected and now he's worse sore wise, can hardly walk on hard ground.  He was sore before vet came today but is way worse now.


Is it normal for them to get so sore after being injected? i'v never had a horse's joints injected so don't have a clue. Vet said nothing about him getting sore,also didn't send correct invoice so have no idea what was injected into joints. Will be calling vet in morning to talk to him about jasper and his extreme soreness.



Thanks,

Corrine and Jasper

MN 4/2014

ECHistory8


http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1622081710
takarri@...
 


---In EquineCushings@..., <sassafrass45@...> wrote :


Sorry to post again here but jasper's come up extremely sore shifting his weight from LF to RF laying down 


 

HI Corinne,

 

Sorry to hear that Jasper is so sore.  I can’t answer your questions about the joint injections- nor the Xrays- I’ll have to leave that to those who know better about that subject- sorry. However I can’t recall other posters mentioning that as being an issue after joint injections.  I did notice that you mentioned that the vet also pulled his shoes- so that might be a bit of a double whammy. Let him lie down if wants to- it’s obviously more comfortable for him if that’s the case. Have you got boots for him? If not can you make something up with pads & tape? Have you checked his temperature? Without knowing what was injected I don’t want to suggest Banamine or the like- that’s a vets call.

 

Sorry can’t be of more help at this stage- hopefully someone else will chime in soon. Hang in there.

 

Pauline & Spur

Sth West Vic

Australia Aug 07

EC Primary Response

http://tinyurl.com/7qbdyas

 
corrine haffner
 

Hi 

Thank pauline, he's not running a temp,but he still very sore this morning. He was injected with HA and steroids. So need some ones input on that being he's PPID & IR. I'm worried this has set off a laminatic 
 attack.?

Have vet coming back to check him today, should be here in next 2 hours,hopefully it doesn't cost as much as yesterdays bill.



Thanks,
Corrine and Jasper
MN 4/2014
ECHistory8
janieclougher@...
 

Hi, Corrine - It's certainly hard to tell what exactly is going on here with Jasper.  Can you duct tape styrofoam onto his feet?  (after the vet visit)  Please let us know what the vet says.




---In EquineCushings@..., <sassafrass45@...> wrote :

Hi 

Thank pauline, he's not running a temp,but he still very sore this morning. He was injected with HA and steroids. So need some ones input on that being he's PPID & IR. I'm worried this has set off a laminatic 
 attack.?

Have vet coming back to check him today, should be here in next 2 hours,hopefully it doesn't cost as much as yesterdays bill.


Thanks,
Corrine and Jasper
MN 4/2014
corrine haffner
 

Hi 

Jaini,vet was here earlier today and no anwsers on why he's so sore,all we know is its in his hoofs very re active to hoof testers. Fetlocks seem to be fine no heat or swelling at injection sites. 

Got his hoof boots on helps some, but still very sore and not wanting to move much,have xrays posted on echistory8 so hope someone who can read xray will chime in here soon.  He can hardly walk over hard ground without almost going down.

Thanks,
Corrine and Jasper
MN 4/2014
ECHistory8
takarri@...
 


Hi Corrine,

Did you get a chance to find out what the vet injected? I noticed you mentioned steroids in a previous post
 

Pauline & Spur

Sth West Vic

Australia Aug 07

EC Primary Response

http://tinyurl.com/7qbdyas

 


---In EquineCushings@..., <sassafrass45@...> wrote :

Hi 

Jaini,vet was here earlier today and no anwsers on why he's so sore,all we know is its in his hoofs very re active to hoof testers. Fetlocks seem to be fine no heat or swelling at injection sites. 
corrine haffner
 

Hi Pauline

He was injected with HA and triamcinolone,he's still very sore footed today even with boots and pads. 

Corrine and Jasper
MN 4/2014
ECHistory8
Lorna Cane
 



>He was injected with HA and triamcinolone,he's still very sore footed today even with boots and pads.

Hi Corrine,

Does your vet know that Jasper is PPID/IR ? 

On a scale of 1-10, 10 being sound,1 being down more than standing, where would you put Jasper ?


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


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corrine haffner
 

Hi Lorna

Yes vet know jasper is ppid & ir. Jasper is an 8 on the scale of 1 to 10.  Jasper has no heat in hoofs and digital pulse is normal.

Corrine and Jasper
MN 4/2014
ECHistory8
Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Corinne,

So sorry Jasper is hurting more. Very frustrating for both of you.

I'm on my way out the door again but took a quick look at the xrays. He is sunk so the amount of foot that he has is needed. That is part of the pain issue. Trim needs to be addressed but isn't as bad as it originally looked now that we know about the sinking and can see exactly what needs to be done.

Because you do not have reliable ACTH blood work results (due to vet errors in handling) it is possible his ACTH, and therefore his PPID, is not being totally controlled. Steroids, even in joint injections, can cause PPID to flare into a laminitic episode, or exacerbate existing foot issues. This doesn't happen to all horse but in some sensitive ones it could be a problem.

Try icing his feet. Crushed ice, with isopropyl alcohol addedto the mix, in ziploc-type bags wrapped around his hooves and pasterns work well if you don't have fancy ice boots. Standing his feet in buckets of ice water can also work. Do this a couple of times per day for a few days to see if it helps.

Let him rest as much as he wants, put hay and water within easy reach for him.

More on the trim later.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team

>>>>>
Donna Powell
 

Corinne,

I had my horse's hocks inject twice a year for 4 years...do not anymore as I am following Dr. Kellon's recommendations for joints successfully.  But, my vet did say he would be sore for a day or so after injecting and to give him some time off (a day or two).  I did and he was fine and I never noticed him having any problems.

Realize of course, he was not having any other issue at that time.

Donna Powell, ECIR MAY 2011
Beaufort, SC
ECHistory8

 
corrine haffner
 

Hi Lavinia

Could you markup xrays to show the sinking. form what i see looks like RF coffen bone has rotated some? I'll try icing his feet,no fancy icing boots so 5 gallon buckets should do. 

I feel no heat in his feet was out there a little bit ago took off his one boot to check. I sent xrays to farrier also she was here to do the other 3 horses. She said next trim she could take off more toe, can see from xrays his toes can come back more yet.

That will be in 4 weeks when she's back to do him and spirit. Sounds like maybe taking toes back isn't the thing to do though?. He and spirit are on a 4 week cycle for trimming,the two mares are on a 6 week trim cycle breaks up cost for me,she's not cheap.
Can the sinking be corrected through trimming? 

His hay and water are where he can reach them both,he lays down next to hay feeder,so i put a big bucket of water right near him..

Thank you,
Corrine and Jasper
MN 4/2014
ECHistory8
corrine haffner
 

Hi Donna

Could you please tell me where to find Dr Kellons protocol for joints,doing the injections is rather pricey.

Thanks,
Corrine and Jasper
MN 4/2014
ECHistory8
Joan and Dazzle
 

Hi Corrine,

I'm sorry that your horse is having issues. Triamcinolone is a corticosteroid. It is a first cousin to dexamethasone.

With what you're seeing after the joint injections could very well be acute laminitis caused by hyperinsinulinemia from the triamcinolone injection. 

It has been strongly debated whether corticosteroid injections could actually cause laminitis. In 2001, there was a famous court case 

in which the judges determined that the corticosteroid injections did cause the laminitis.

The scientific community was outraged. There were no studies which showed this was the case. 

We know that insulin levels increase with corticosteroid use. We just didn't know how high. In 2013, Borer-Weir and Menzies-Gow published a paper in which they injected ponies with dexamethasone. They then measured the insulin levels. The amount of dexamethasone was similar to what they would use for a dex suppression test. They found that previously laminitic ponies had their insulin skyrocket with dex, but the ponies that had never been laminitic did not have their insulin rise so high.


The significance is that some of the previously laminitic ponies had their insulin levels rise to 1400 and 1700. This is important because Asplin (2007) found that insulin levels of 1036 caused laminitis in normal horses.

Do we know "for sure" that the triamcinolone is the cause of this new footsoreness? No. We don't. But at this point, it is very suspicious, especially since we *know* that triamcinolone increases blood insulin levels, and horses that have been previously laminitic have higher rises than horses that have not been previously laminitic.

On a move-forward basis, I would pay close attention to the trim, keep my horse in boots, and let the feet heal from this new assault. I would treat this as a "new" case of laminitis.

And be kind to yourself. We count on our vets to know the right thing to do, but they aren't always up on the latest information.

My heart aches for you.

Best regards,
Joan and Dazzle
Anaheim, CA 2006
corrine haffner
 

Hi Joan

Thank you for all the information,its kinda my fault i should of asked what was being injected into his joints. Vet knows jasper is ppid and ir i'am thinking he spaced that out and i didn't say anything,this is only the second time he's seen jasper. I just assumed vet remembered that jasper was ppid and ir,should of never assumed that. 

I know he was only doing what he thought was best,i'm sure not going to sue him for it. Heck jasper is just a trail horse not a fancy show horse. I'v owned jasper since he was a yearling he was still a stud and barely halter broke. 

He's got on his boots with pads i'm treating as though its laminitis,he's trimmed regular not sure it up to snuff but working on it. 

Thanks,
Corrine and jasper
MN 4/2014
ECHistory8
Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 




I couldn't agree more with Lavinia and Joan.

I don't see any fractures/chips on these copies of radiographs but could be on another view or a better image.

Also don't see much convincing evidence of laminitis in those films except for sinking which can be from poor laminar connections in general and a toe flaring/white line spread close to ground surface that also has a mechanical component from too long toe.

In any case, triamcinolone (and betamethasone) are the worst offenders for causing metabolic effects and a horse with PPID/IR is at high risk of complications.

The solution for getting this horse restored to comfort is a classical example of DDT.  All factors have to come together or it won't work.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001
corrine haffner
 

Hi 

Can someone please look at current diet in jasper's case history it was updated not to long ago so is current. I'am soaking his hay its untested from last year. Will have new hay tested when we get it,sometime in late june. Maybe i need to soak hay longer then an hour?  How long will the joint injections have a bad effect on him?

He is also still being treated for lyme dease till sometime in july,so will re test after treatment is done. Working with current farrier to get his feet where they need to be,not an easy task. We butted heads today on what needs to be done,i didn't let her put shoes back on,so he's in boots with pads.

Thanks,
Corrine and Jasper
MN 4/2014
ECHistory8

http://groups.yahoo,com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1622081710


The solution for getting this horse restored to comfort is a classical example of DDT.  All factors have to come together or it won't work.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001
Lorna Cane
 


> We butted heads today on what needs to be done,i didn't let her put shoes back on,so he's in boots with pads.


I'm sorry I can't add anything about diet  right now,Corrine. Just wanted to say GOOD FOR YOU!
It's really tough to be in the position you are in.
Lots of us know that. We are pulling for you, and Jasper.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
corrine haffner
 

Hi 

Thank you so much Lorna for the support. Can Dr Kellon or lavinia please show me on current xrays the sinking that has happened. I'am clueless on what to look for. 

I know all parts of DDT have to be in place, and the trim is one major issue, then the untested hay is also part of all our problems. So really need help to make sure current diet is right, if not i need to know what to change.

Thanks.
Corrine and Jasper
MN 4/2014
Donna Powell
 

From: "sassafrass45@... [EquineCushings]"
To: EquineCushings@...
Sent: Thursday, May 7, 2015 2:58 PM
Subject: [EquineCushings] Re: Need Help ( Jasper's really sore 8 hours after joint injections )

Corrine,
At this moment I do not have that info...this weekend I shall start looking up chapters and page numbers and get back to you.  It could even be in THM.  It isn't so much a protocol as adding supplements for joints like Chondroidin (sp?) Sulfate (that was my first Ah Hah moment) then adding HA and some others that I cannot remember at this moment....will let you know.  Most any anti inflammatory recommended by this group is a good idea. I remember the first time "waking up" to the fact I might not need injections was Dr. Kellon saying that years ago injections were common in the commercial horse arena and with the knowledge of supplements, injections were falling by the way side.  And she was right as usual!

Could you please tell me where to find Dr Kellons protocol for joints,doing the injections is rather pricey.

Thanks,
Corrine and Jasper
MN 4/2014
ECHistory8
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