Teshan
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kleonaptra@...
I have updated Teshans case history and new blood test files. I appreciate any comments on her full blood work up. She is doing really well. The Hygain Zero has really made a difference to her feet and they look almost normal again. After dabbling with meadow hay and such over the last few months Ive gone back to lucerne. She's much happier on it. I dont like how fast shes lost condition, even though she needed to get her weight under control she has always been a solid type and its very confronting for me to see her looking 'lean'. I will get some updated pics of her soon including her feet. My trimming is far from perfect but I am getting there fast and I would rather make small corrections every couple of weeks than risk taking off too much. I have killed off almost all the grass and there is no more lush pockets. I will always let her graze, so theres no point arguing with me about that, ok? She loves roaming and grazing, and one of my biggest fears is that I would have to put her down at a time she had not been enjoying her life. I want her to do her favourite things every day because at her age any day could be the last day. Im trying hard to find the right balance for her and this might mean incremental changes every day for the rest of her life. Teshan metabolizes routines and medications - meaning that anything you do to her to change her she will quickly absorb and gain immunity to it. Biggest mystery is her reaction to pergolide. After repeated attempts to get her through the veil it could not be done. She remains on 2ml daily which administers less than 1ml active dose. Im working on learning more to help her and her family - I now have Zayfir and his daughter River on the low sugar feed as well. Their itch has improved as well as other small changes suggesting IR in the family.
Thanks all. K Western Sydney NSW Australia Teshan 3/2/2015 https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/search/photos?query=Teshan#zax/albums_629885947 (photo link) https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Kim%20and%20Teshan/ |
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Judy L. Meadows <marktime@...>
Dear K,
I have had good results keeping my Cushings horse in a corral overnight and then turning him out with a grazing muzzle with my other horses in a two acre pasture for about 8 hours a day. He can still graze, but doesn't get near what he would without the muzzle. He has something to keep him occupied. He has lost about 100 pounds since the beginning of April! :) I use a slow feed hay bag at night, but it is not as slow as I had hoped. I got 1.25 inch, would get 1.0 if I were doing it over. Judy & Rudy 2014 --
Judy L. Meadows
~in the Missouri Ozarks
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> I will always let her graze, so theres no point arguing with me about that, ok? I hope that works out well for her, K. Lorna
in Ontario,Canada
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
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Kerry Isherwood
...."I have updated Teshans case history and new blood test files. I appreciate any comments on her full blood work up. "..... >>> Its a shame her ACTH is still so clearly uncontrolled. Did you test for the recommended insulin, glucose, and leptin? There don't appear to be any results listed for the latter three tests. ----------------------------------------------- ...."She is doing really well. ... I dont like how fast shes lost condition, ".... >>> OK, so which is it then, she is doing well or she isn't? This is a bit confusing. ----------------------------------------------- ...."I have killed off almost all the grass and there is no more lush pockets. I will always let her graze, so theres no point arguing with me about that, ok? She loves roaming and grazing, ".... >>>> So she has access to grass or not? This is confusing. Roaming is always good; grazing is not. ----------------------------------------------- ...."one of my biggest fears is that I would have to put her down at a time she had not been enjoying her life. I want her to do her favourite things every day because at her age any day could be the last day.".... >>>> Please note 21 is not "old". My PPID/IR mare is also 21 and competing in 10+ mile hunter paces & jumper shows and feels the best she's ever felt because I took measures to make sure her ACTH and IR are as possibly well-controlled as the current research allows. *Of course* everyone wants their horse to do their "favorite things every day" but Teshan doesn't know she's suffering from wildly uncontrolled PPID and I'd like to think that if she had the wherewithall to understand that grazing is highly dangerous for her, that she would make the choice to avoid grazing. Unfortunately, that decision is left to their guardians, us humans. Lastly, Im not sure how you will avoid "putting her down at a time she had not been enjoying life" -- does this mean you are going to euthanize her when she's still healthy & happy? Your version of "happy" may not be necessarily the same as hers. You are deluding yourself to think that uncontrolled PPID & laminitis have a peaceful ending. -----------------------------------------------
...."She remains on 2ml daily which administers less than 1ml active dose. ..." >>> mls don't mean anything b/c each compounded formula may be different -- its the daily mg of pergolide that is important for us to know. ------------------------------------------------ ....."Im working on learning more to help her and her family - I now have Zayfir and his daughter River on the low sugar feed as well. Their itch has improved as well as other small changes suggesting IR in the family."..... >>>> this is a no-brainer -- get their insulin, glucose, and leptin checked immediately ------------------------------------------------ Lastly, thank you for removing the "research notes" in your EC8 folder. Every single person in this group wants nothing more than to help your horse, and some of your commentary on cut & pasted quotes offered from this group was unnecessarily snide. Best of luck, Kerry in NY Sept 2014 |
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requested:
ACTH is not controlled. PPID can drive IR. Insulin to taken. You do not know if insulin is controlled. Insulin is what affects the feet. May have anemia of chronic disease, ie uncontrolled PPID. All of this can be addressed for the benefit of your mare. APF, American Ginseng and sometimes jherb can help with the veil she is getting when raising the pergolide. Grass is not recommended for horses with uncontrolled Insulin. It is unusual for stallions to have IR. Goal here is zero laminitis and the best welfare of the PPID/IR horse. Controlling PPID is critical. Nancy C in NH ECIR Moderator 2003 Invest in the health of your horse and help ECIR Group nonprofit at the same time! Hear Drs Kellon, Bowker and more, in eight hours of great info and informative Q&A from 2013 NO Laminitis! Conference. Conference Proceedings & Recordings
---In EquineCushings@..., <windybriars@...> wrote :
I hope that works out well for her, K. Lorna
in Ontario,Canada
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup |
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Kerry said," Every single person in this group wants nothing more than to help your horse,...." Truer words were never spoken! It is about the horse . Lorna
in Ontario,Canada
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
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takarri@...
---In EquineCushings@..., <kleonaptra@...> wrote :
Biggest mystery is her reaction to pergolide. After repeated attempts to get her through the veil it could not be done. Hi Kim. Thanks for the update on Teshan. Just wanted to let you know that we now have an "equivalent" of AFP available in Australia, in the form of a chinese herbal blend that was put together specifically with PPID horses in mind. This is to help them deal with the pergolide veil. If you're interested in giving that a go- I'll pass on the details. You may also want to talk with your vet about changing to Prascend, rather than the liquid. That way you can titre up slowly and more accurately. Worth a thought. Pauline & Spur Sth West Vic Australia Aug 07 EC Primary Response
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Good to know Pauline. If you send me the info, we can post in the Australian file.
Nancy C in NH ECIR Moderator 2003 FACT: Some mares are refractory to good control of IR by the usual diet measures. See E. M. Kellon, VMD, Mineral Nutrition and Insulin Resistance, 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.
---In EquineCushings@..., <takarri@...> wrote : - Hi Kim. Thanks for the update on Teshan. Just wanted to let you know that we now have an "equivalent" of AFP available in Australia, in the form of a chinese herbal blend that was put together specifically with PPID horses in mind. |
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kleonaptra@...
>> Its a shame her ACTH is still so clearly uncontrolled. Did you test for the recommended insulin, glucose, and leptin? There don't appear to be any results listed for the latter three tests.
Her ACTH is going down. This is a good thing. Her full blood workup includes all results. I'll be the first to admit I dont understand all the abbreviations, I was counting on Dr Kellon for that. >> OK, so which is it then, she is doing well or she isn't? This is a bit confusing. She was previously fat and is now lean. Its all in her case history which has been updated. Ive never seen her lean in over 20 years, so its confronting to me. She often looks hollow in the flanks, pees a lot but does not drink a lot. >> > So she has access to grass or not? This is confusing. Roaming is always good; grazing is not. Yes she has access to grass. She always will >>> > Please note 21 is not "old" . Regardless of fitness level, 21 is old. >> mls don't mean anything b/c each compounded formula may be different -- its the daily mg of pergolide that is important for us to know. She's on liquid pergolide >>> > this is a no-brainer -- get their insulin, glucose, and leptin checked immediately Cant afford it. Lastly, thank you for removing the "research notes" in your EC8 folder. Every single person in this group wants nothing more than to help your horse, and some of your commentary on cut & pasted quotes offered from this group was unnecessarily snide. I really am sorry you took it that way. It wasnnt intended. Sometimes people with my level of social phobia find it difficult to make themselves understood. I meant no offence but felt attacked, as I do now again. My anxiety is reaching record level every time I read my messages from this group. I will again get to a point where I simply cannot interact. |
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>Regardless of fitness level, 21 is old. Yikes. The 'baby' in my stable is 21. The others are 38ish, 30 , and 43. The youngest is not PPID/IR. I lost my PPID/IR , 34-year-old last September (strangulation lipoma), my PPID/IR 32-year-old 2 years ago.Again strangulation lipoma. >She's on liquid pergolide. How many mgs pergolide are in a ml of the liquid.That's what you are interested in. Lorna
in Ontario,Canada
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
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Hi Kim
It's really too bad you feel phobic about this. Helping your horse is what this groups is here for and as stated previously, the fundamental message may seem harsh but will not be changed. The group is about the welfare of the horse and avoiding laminitis. Your ACTH is going down now, perhaps, as a result of the declining seasonal rise. Maybe it's your pergolide dose. Either way the past two blood draws show her PPID is not controlled. I've been trying to understand why you posted at all. I guess it was so Dr Kellon could review your Chemistry and CBC lab results. Is that right? Recommend while you wait that you research anemia driven by chronic disease. This is common in horses with uncontrolled PPID and/or IR. Try googling Complete Blood count for more info. Same for Chemistry Panel. Many web sites offer info. Lots of discussion in the archives here as well. There is a glucose result in the chemistry portion of your lab results. It was normal. We know she is on liquid pergolide. Your vet should be able to tell you how much actual daily drug/pergolide she is getting - in mg - if it is not on the bottle. Storing liquid correctly is imperative to keep it as viable as possible. Prascend is far more reliable than liquid as Pauline pointed out. Uncontrolled IR and uncontrolled PPID will give you the body you describe. This is the internet so let me say clearly that personally I am not about attacking you, so take that off the table please. Like 99% of the members here, I am about helping your horse avoid what uncontrolled metabolic conditions can do to them. You have stated pretty categorically why you can't do many/most things ECIR recommends. That is not going to change our responses when you write and ask for input. It may help to know that the vast majority of members have come through here thinking they could not possibly do what this group recommends. Thankfully most of them caught on, sometimes before a medical catastrophe. The owners that don't are the most heart breaking for us. I'm with Kerry that 21 is not old but it does require you to address issues that come with aging. I know you are stressed. Hope you've been able tor ed what soem of teh others on this group are going through right now. It helps to see what is possible and offers an extraordinary opportunity to learn to help you whole herd. Please make sure you sign your posts. Nancy C in NH ECIR Moderator 2003 FACT: The fall seasonal ACTH rise was first documented by an ECIR Group member and her veterinarian after noticing her horse had repeated bouts of fall laminitis. Fall laminitis is now recognized as an early sign of PPID. See E. M. Kellon, VMD, The Internet as an Epidemiological Tool, 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.
---In EquineCushings@..., <kleonaptra@...> wrote : Her ACTH is going down. This is a good thing. Her full blood workup includes all results. I'll be the first to admit I dont understand all the abbreviations, I was counting on Dr Kellon for that. >> OK, so which is it then, she is doing well or she isn't? This is a bit confusing. She was previously fat and is now lean. Its all in her case history which has been updated. Ive never seen her lean in over 20 years, so its confronting to me. She often looks hollow in the flanks, pees a lot but does not drink a lot. >> > So she has access to grass or not? This is confusing. Roaming is always good; grazing is not. Yes she has access to grass. She always will |
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Mark D. Meadows <marktime@...>
I can't/don't do everything the group recommends either, Teshan. But I am doing what I can and have moved significantly in that direction. I understand that the people who give their time so generously to provide information and encouragement want what is best for me and my horse, so I do not take offense. I still let my horse graze some, but a grazing muzzle allows him to keep busy but not take in much grass. He is Cushings, but may not be IR. I will find that out next week with his next blood draw. :O Judy & Rudy in SWMO |
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