poor fat digestion and shiny manure


beverly meyer
 

Ginger's manure has an iridescent blue sheen which I assume is undigested fat.  Doesn't seem to matter whether it's freshly ground flax, flax oil or chia seeds.  I did not see this before this year.

Given her age (31) and lack of teeth, is there something to do to help digest fat? Her dandruff is bad and she needs the Omega 3's for inflammation.  Someone previously suggested Lipase but I'm not sure that's the solution.

Thanks for any ideas.

Beverly 6/14

Beverly Texas

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Beverly%20Texas/ 



Nancy C
 

If in fact this is an example of undigested fat, looking at a complete picture of what you are giving would be the first step.

For example, you've recently talked a lot about various herbs you are trying on Ginger some of which are listed as inhibiting fat digestion and absorption, at least in humans.

Idea #1 is to please take the time to update your case history with everything you are currently giving so it is in one place?  Then the group can give you much better, specific recommendations.  It may not be a matter of adding something but of removing something.

Many thanks.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

FACT: With knowledge of the nutrient profile of the forage and the animal's weight and level of work, one can supplement only what is needed to target nutritional needs.  See  Smithey and Gustafson, Nutrition Complexities and Mineral Profiles of Hay 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, www.ecirhorse.org




---In EquineCushings@..., <bmeyer@...> wrote :

Ginger's manure has an iridescent blue sheen which I assume is undigested fat. 

Beverly 6/14

Beverly Texas

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Beverly%20Texas/ 



janieclougher@...
 

Shiny poop is more commonly caused by a mucus coating, which indicates some *possible* inflammation in the lower bowel. (but not always)  As Nancy says, an updated case history would be grand.  De-worming history?  Any signs of colic?




---In EquineCushings@..., <bmeyer@...> wrote :

Ginger's manure has an iridescent blue sheen which I assume is undigested fat.

Beverly 6/14

Beverly Texas

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Beverly%20Texas/ 



beverly meyer
 

Ginger's history is updated and posted now.
On very few supplements except Jherb, Alcar....
Nothing unusual otherwise. No colic. No change in food, etc. No clues about what started this issue 2 months ago. It looks like an oil sheen on water like you'd see in a parking lot. Not visible except in the sun.
Still high insulin, over 150.
The donkey had this blue shiny manure when he was underweight and Dr. Kellon warned me about hypertriglyceridemia. He's better now....
Thanks for any ideas. Her fat dose is minimal and her dandruff is as bad as always.
Beverly 6/14
Beverly Texas
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Beverly%20Texas/


Nancy C
 

Hi Beverly

Thanks for your updated Case History.

I cannot speak to your fat absorbtion theory but have a few ideas for Ginger based on what you are feeding.

Biotin Plus has Yucca in it.  Yucca has a cortisol effect. and since you are trying to get insulin down I would discontinue if she were here.  See FILE search on Yucca and also see archive message search, drkellon as author, and yucca in message body.

It also appears you are missing Selenium, copper and zinc, all hugely important for IR, skin, feet.

Best choice is to get a load of Standlee, test and balance. You've undoubtedly heard that before. Next best is to switch to California Trace or AZ Copper Complete (Horsetech).  Can't remember the biotin levels but you could always add seperately if you need more. 

The use of high levels of biotin in horses to control IR comes from human medicine and as far as I am aware there is no evidence in horses that it works.

You can read about the effect the above suggestions have in the 2013 Proceedings on ecirhorse.org.

Nancy C in NH
ECOR Group Mod
FEbruary 2003


---In EquineCushings@..., <bmeyer@...> wrote :

Ginger's history is updated and posted now.

Beverly 6/14
Beverly Texas
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Beverly%20Texas/


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 


--In EquineCushings@..., <janieclougher@...> wrote :

Shiny poop is more commonly caused by a mucus coating,
= = = = = = = =

I have to agree with Jaini.  There's not enough fat in 1.5 oz of flax, or equivalent, to coat 25+ pounds of manure.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


beverly meyer
 

I forgot to take Biotin Plus off the list. She's been off that. No, it didn't have Yucca.
Actually the problem may have started when she went off that. She was only on 1/2 dose for her size, but it did have B5 which can help fat digestion.
Dr. Kellon, if it is not fat malabsorption what would it be? The donkey had this when he had hypretriglycerides from underfeeding. It cleared up as he got more food.
Also, Dr. Kellon, it's not 1 ounce of flax to 25 pounds manure, as she gets 8 pounds of food/day. Not sure how much manure that makes!
Just so odd that both animals have/had this at different times and they eat mostly ODTB but have had it at different times. I'm open to thoughts on how to test with a fat digestion supplement if anyone has an idea.
I did do a Standlee analysis on 2 bags in May, and it is now in the ECIR Feed files. Taking the course now and will learn how to read results but can someone look at the tests now and help me with missing nutrients?
Her feed has not changed though so why the change in manure?
Thanks.
Beverly 6/14
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Beverly%20Texas/


Nancy C
 

Yucca is listed on the web site for Biotin Plus.  In a big way, in fact.

As you have heard, testing two bags is not going to help you balance. Using the products previously suggested will get you through until you can do a complete test and analysis.

I believe both Dr Kellon and Dr Clougher mentioned mucus, not fat.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

FACT: With knowledge of the nutrient profile of the forage and the animal's weight and level of work, one can supplement only what is needed to target nutritional needs.  See  Smithey and Gustafson, Nutrition Complexities and Mineral Profiles of Hay 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 








---In EquineCushings@..., <bmeyer@...> wrote :

I forgot to take Biotin Plus off the list. She's been off that. No, it
didn't have Yucca.


Lorna Cane
 


> No, it didn't have Yucca.

It seems there is more than one Biotin Plus.
One has Yucca.The other does not appear to have Yucca. 
Great.

You were using the Smart Pak product,probably,Beverly?

http://www.bigdweb.com/Biotin-Plus-Powder-20-Lb/productinfo/633P/

https://www.smartpakequine.com/ps/ps/biotin-plus-817


Lorna in Ontario,Canada

ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup



 





beverly meyer
 

Hi Nancy,
I forgot to ask... How can you tell from my Case History that I need Selenium, Copper and Zinc? That's really helpful. They're in ODTB, but maybe you looked at the Standlee Timothy files? Or because they're not in Remission?
Thanks,
Beverly 6/14
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Beverly%20Texas/


beverly meyer
 

I can't remember where I bought the bag of Biotin Plus but it doesn't list Yucca. I can't find a website with a different Biotin Plus either.
Maybe they took it out?


Lorna Cane
 

http://www.bigdweb.com/Biotin-Plus-Powder-20-Lb/productinfo/633P/

Remember to sign posts , please.


 

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup



 






Nancy C
 

Standlee is not balanced.  Standlee is the bulk of your diet.  NRCPlus will be teaching you how to calculate exactly how much copper, zinc and selenium she needs vs what she is currently getting.  ODTB Cubes are designed to feed as a complete diet.  Your diet is 25% ODTB Cubes.  She is not getting enough cubes to give her the required amount of SE.  Or copper or Zinc. The likely high iron and manganese in Standlee is throwing off Copper and Zinc ratios even further.

With knowledge of the nutrient profile of the forage and the animal's weight and level of work, one can supplement only what is needed to target nutritional needs.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

Learn to manage IR and PPID equine at the NO Laminitis! Conference in Georgetown Texas, November 6-8, 2015   www.nolaminitis.org

 






beverly meyer
 

If mucus is suddenly causing a sheen on manure, what does that mean?
I know it's beneficial as part of the lining of the gut, but is she somehow overproducing or excreting it?
Thanks, Beverly
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Beverly%20Texas/


Lorna Cane
 


>If mucus is suddenly causing a sheen on manure, what does that mean?

I Googled mucous manure. Here are a few sites:

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup







beverly meyer
 

Hi Lorna,
I checked the product description of the Biotin Plus at the link you gave me for Big Dee's. The description says it has yucca but the label they provide does not. Guess they need to update the description.
Thanks for the link.
Beverly 6/14
Beverly Texas


beverly meyer
 

Thanks Lorna for sharing some links to manure and mucus.
Fortunately Ginger's manure is not at all slimy or covered with mucous. It just has a slightly blue tint you can see in the sun. It is otherwise dry and normal looking.
Has anyone else seen a blue or iridescent tint on manure in the sun? Just like oil on water in a parking lot... I'm wondering if somehow it's coming from the galvanized buckets I feed her in. Is it possible to have a heavy metal coating coming off?
Thanks,
Beverly 6/14
Beverly Texas


kansteen5545@...
 

Hi Beverly -
I have read that this is not uncommon for horses that are on the Timothy Balance Cubes - mine is, and I have noticed that her manure has that same look to it that you are describing.
Karen
ME/2014


---- "Beverly Meyer bmeyer@... [EquineCushings]" <EquineCushings@...> wrote:

Thanks Lorna for sharing some links to manure and mucus.
Fortunately Ginger's manure is not at all slimy or covered with
mucous. It just has a slightly blue tint you can see in the sun. It is
otherwise dry and normal looking.
Has anyone else seen a blue or iridescent tint on manure in the sun?
Just like oil on water in a parking lot... I'm wondering if somehow it's
coming from the galvanized buckets I feed her in. Is it possible to
have a heavy metal coating coming off?
Thanks,
Beverly 6/14
Beverly Texas


Lorna Cane
 


>I have read that this is not uncommon for horses that are on the Timothy Balance Cubes - mine is, and I have noticed that her manure has that same look to it that you are describing.

I'd be interested in where you have read this,Karen.

I have fed ODTBC to 5 of my horses,over many years, and have never seen manure like Beverly and you describe.

Thanks.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup





Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 




---In EquineCushings@..., <bmeyer@...> wrote :

Dr. Kellon, if it is not fat malabsorption what would it be?

A light layer of mucus. Possibly insufficient salt or water intake, parasites.
= = = = = =

The donkey had this when he had hypretriglycerides from underfeeding. It cleared up
as he got more food.

Hypertriglyceridemia from underfeeding is high fat levels in the blood caused by mobilization of fat from body stores.  It has nothing to do with the absorption of fat from the intestines and the fat does not get excreted into the intestines so there's no way there is any connection there.
= = = = = =

Also, Dr. Kellon, it's not 1 ounce of flax to 25 pounds manure, as she
gets 8 pounds of food/day. Not sure how much manure that makes!

The average adult size horse produces 50 pounds of manure a day (and eats about 20 - 22 pounds of food, dry matter) so you horse would produce at least 20 pounds of manure.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001