Triple Crown 30 -- anyone else having problems with it?


threehorsefarm
 

I began feeding it first of March, had several weeks of just "off" and footsore.  I know it is recommended for insulin resistant horses so I kept looking for another cause,  but wonder if this could be his problem -- anyone else had any worries with it??

Robyn
Kansas
2012




corrine haffner
 

Hi Robyn

I know from reading on here you don't want added iron in the diet of PPID or IR horses. Triple crown 30% has 750 ppm of iron added to it. Also i looked at ingredients it has molasses and rice bran, it's way down on the list,but if horse is sensitive it could be a problem. If i'am wrong on this someone correct me...

 I feed my horse the ODTB cubes currently switching him over to all ODTB cubes,they are nutritionally balanced and safe for PPID or IR horses. Until i can get my hay tested i want to eliminate any possible triggers from jasper's diet.

Corrine & Jasper
MN 4/2014




 

Robyn - The NSC on Triple Crown 30 is 9.8%.  This is rather high since the limit is 10%.  Triple Crown lite is 9.3% and Triple Crown Safe Starch Forage is 8.7%.  BUT Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance Cubes are 7.0% and if you can get Triple Crown products you can get the ODTB cubes.

I would switch and see if it makes a difference.

Jean and Amber
in South Carolina
August 2004


Chanda
 

Gotta say it again, you can't always get ODTB cubes just because you can get Triple Crown.  Our regional distributor will not order in the ODTB cubes because they already have the TC Safe Starch, and they don't want two similar products, so they stick with the TC.

Chanda

 MT 9/04


Kathy Brinkerhoff
 

Hi Robyn,

Do you have an E-A  analysis for the  hay you are feeding?  If you have a CH filled out might you provide a link to it?   


Are you feeding the TC 30 to help balance your hay?   How much are you feeding per day?  


Thank you,

Kathy Brinkerhoff

SE/WI  10/12








Kathy Brinkerhoff
 

Hi Corrine,

You are correct that  we should try and eliminate added iron in our horses diets whether they are IR and/or PPID or not, but since iron is in hays,pastures and feeds we use their analyses to balance the trace minerals (copper, zinc and manganese) to a tight ratio of Iron (4): Copper (1): Zinc (3): Manganese (3) as well as the major minerals to reflect the NRC requirements and recommended ratios based on ideal body weight, age and activity level of the horse for whom we are doing the diet.

Since TC 30 is a dense supplement feed the recommended feeding is 1 #  to 1.5#'s per day for a 1,000# horse.  The Iron is listed as 750 ppm, but that is a 340 mg of iron contribution to the diet per pound.  As you know the ODTBC have iron as well and the iron analysis for the one I found in the files lists the iron as 313 mg per pound.  The ODTBC is an excellent product and we would not eliminate it from our feed program based on the iron content alone because as you point out it is balanced. 

I think when our horses have a hoof soreness issue or something is just not right it is an excellent idea,  as Robyn has done,  to go through and evaluate our feed program, hoof trim, exercise and pursue a diagnosis to see what might be causing the problem.  If the 1# of TC 30 with an ESC (Sugar) of 8% and Starch of 1.8% is the possible cause then we can eliminate it and  source another carrier or supplement  product for our diet.  

Kathy Brinkerhoff

SE/WI  10/12






threehorsefarm
 

His hay is balanced with the triple crown 30. I am not convinced at all the TC 30 is the problem, just wondered if anyone had problems with it.  I am going to order the mix today from Horsetech and start that.  Thanks for the replies; tried to trim this but don't see how to do it, so apologies.

On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:11 PM, kathbrink@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:
 

Hi Robyn,


Do you have an E-A  analysis for the  hay you are feeding?  If you have a CH filled out might you provide a link to it?   


Are you feeding the TC 30 to help balance your hay?   How much are you feeding per day?  


Thank you,

Kathy Brinkerhoff

SE/WI  10/12









Kerry Isherwood
 

....."The NSC on Triple Crown 30 is 9.8%".....

My IR//PPID mare is very sensitive to sugars, esp while in a hyperinsulinemic crisis. Thru many trials & errors, Ive found she cannot handle any ESC+starch over 7% (when she's not in crisis, she can handle up to about 10% when in heavy work). To say it another way, a horse may be seemingly fine on "x" diet until it reaches a threshold of insulin resistance whereby the same "x" diet its been eating all along suddenly is fueling the IR and ultimately making it worse; its not the diet that changed, its the horse's tolerance to it). So your horse *may* have seemingly been fine on the TC-30 for some time, then he reached a degree of IR that wrenched his metabolism into a downward spiral. The only real way to tell for sure is to test his insulin while on the TC-30. If you dont want to test, then simply take him off of it and see if he improves. But to do this definitively then you'll need to know what the exact % ESC+starch of the hay & rest of his diet is to be able to accurately ascertain if the TC-30 is the culprit. You should only remove one variable at a time to pinpoint the problem. However, if your horse has already become hyperinsulinemic and has sub-clinical laminitis at present, then you need to scrap everything & start the Energency Diet immediately to get the insulin down, which kinda brings you back full circle to really needing to check the insulin by blood test.
FWIW, my mare could not eat any of the bagged 1-lb supps like the TC-30 (McCauleys, Poulin, etc). Every one of them threw her into crisis, even when in full work.

Good luck,
Kerry in NY
Sept 2014


Kathy Brinkerhoff
 

Hi Kerry,

What was/is the ESC + Starch in the hay you were/are feeding at the time when you experienced these crises?   
Kathy Brinkerhoff

SE/WI  10/12




Kerry Isherwood
 

....."What was/is the ESC + Starch in the hay you were/are feeding at the time when you experienced these crises?".....

hi Kathy,
These occurrences were last year when my mare was severely IR but not yet diagnosed PPID. This is the scenario I mentioned in another recent post/topic whereby I could not get any of my local vets to believe my mare was in fact early PPID (no clinical symptoms, borderline 36.6 ACTH, Cornell), etc until I found she was repeatedly hyperglycemic (in retrospect I believe commercial labs I was using were showing falsely lowered glucose results bc of the collection technique all during the time of mare's diet/exercise refractory IR (late summer '14). All last summer my mare was competing heavily (eventing) & was on soaked grass hay (roughly 8.0% *before* soak) and never more than 7.5% esc+starch bagged/chopped forage (and I weighed every serving down to the ounce!) yet she was still having severe insulin swings due to her as-yet-unknown PPID. Early on during the Summer of Hell as I now call it, my vet advised to add one of the 1-lb all-around 30% protein supps (I tried TC, Poulin's, and McCauley's) and each time had a terrible insulin spike. My mare is one of the cursed ones that cannot handle any fats, or a single bite of grass, any kind of grain product, etc and that is true still today, even with IR well-controlled on pergolide. Im way too gunshy to try one of the products now, and its a moot point anyway, because I would much rather acheive a tight vit/mineral balance with a custom supp blended to augment my hay, rather than blindly hoping im doing the right thing by using an 'all-purpose' supp for fatties like the 30% supps now avail

Hopefully that answers your question. Unfortunately Neo erased my painstakingly detailed CH on my mare and Ive yet to update & repost it.

Kerry in NY
Sept 14


 

Hi all,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the TC Lite's NSC is not "guaranteed" in each bag, and can vary tremendously from batch to batch (ask me how I know). 

The TC 30, however, *is* guaranteed to be 9.8% in each batch, as it's made in one plant with consistent testing.

That doesn't mean that the TC 30 won't be too high for some horses, especially if feeding 1 lb. of it. As a ¼ - ½ cup "taste tempter", I've had no problems.

Don't forget to add up the Selenium in these products, if you are feeding additional Selenium.

TC has a good chart with some of this explained in footnotes about the range of sugars and starch that can occur across products.

Jannalee
Talent, OR
2008


Kathy Brinkerhoff
 

Hi Kerry,

" I would much rather acheive a tight vit/mineral balance with a custom supp blended to augment my hay, rather than blindly hoping im doing the right thing by using an 'all-purpose' supp for fatties like the 30% supps now avail"


Not sure if you are currently or have balanced your hay in the past, but these dense feed supplements...i...e..TC 30%  come in handy in some diet balancing situations.  In some cases, they can help provide additional protein, calcium, magnesium and contribute copper and zinc and work as palatable feed base for additional minerals that may be needed based on the hay profile.   Not all of us can balance our hay with a custom supplement so I am glad that there are other products that I can offer an owner to balance their horse's diet.  I think of them as another tool in the diet balancing process and not an "all-purpose supp for fatties".   

So if I am understanding your post your mare was IR and uncontrolled because she was early PPID.  Are you still soaking her hay?  Is she on a custom supplement to balance her hay? Sorry, I am not understanding where you are at with your diet for her......what is the ESC + Starch in her current hay?  You can just write it in a post if you CH is unavailable.

Thank you, 

Kathy Brinkerhoff

SE/WI 10/12


 




Kerry Isherwood
 

Hi Kathy, 

....."Not all of us can balance our hay with a custom supplement so I am glad that there are other products that I can offer an owner to balance their horse's diet.  I think of them as another tool in the diet balancing process and not an "all-purpose supp for fatties".".....


>>> my apologies if my statement sounded facetious -- it was not meant to be.  Yes, I agree the concentrated 30% supps are better than nothing for those of us that cannot feed fortified grain!  And by "fatties" I should have said "easy-keepers".  Again, my apologies.


....."So if I am understanding your post your mare was IR and uncontrolled because she was early PPID.  Are you still soaking her hay?  Is she on a custom supplement to balance her hay? Sorry, I am not understanding where you are at with your diet for her......what is the ESC + Starch in her current hay?".....

>>> My mare is on 15 lbs/day ODTBC and roughly 5lbs/day mixed grass hay in a small mesh haynet (unsoaked).  The cubes are spread around her drylot so she can "graze" and the crumbs that are too small to toss are used as the carrier for iodized salt (1oz), ground flax (1oz), and VitE 2500IU/day.  If she works hard (10 miles+) she gets a handful of soaked cubes 1 hr after work with a scoop of electrolytes (Pro-lyte, by Uckele). 

Bc the bulk of her diet is the balanced cubes, I do not need to balance the relatively small amt of grass hay she consumes (as I understand from previous posts). 

Hopefully this answers your questions. 

As an aside, my IR gelding, who I recently discovered is iron overloaded and having insulin spikes despite tight diet and exercise, is on soaked hay still as Emergency Diet.  He is out of the sore foot phase thank goodness and starting to lose weight and act sane again (historically abrupt behavior changes are his only hyperinsulinemic symptom).  It appears he gains too much weight on the ODTBC when they compose >50% of his diet so he will have to have analyzed hay and a customized supp balanced to the hay when the time comes.  I plan to retest his insulin in approximately 1 week, although Im pretty sure it is already down due to his settled mental behavior.  Because of his iron overload problem, his diet will have to be ultra-tightly balanced if there's any hope of ever getting the dang iron out of his system (again, as i've been told via previous posts). 

Kerry in NY
Sept 2014


Kathy Brinkerhoff
 

Hi Kerry,

Thank you for the clarification.

25% of you mare's diet is untested hay (unsoaked)  and from what I understand from your post your gelding is fed the same hay (soaked) and it is at least 50% of his diet and soon to be 100% (?).   I don't understand what you mean when you say you will analyze his hay and get him a custom supplement when the time comes?  What time is that?   Addressing the iron overload issues starts with a hay analysis.  I, also, think it would be prudent to know what the 5#'s of hay is contributing to you mare's diet or if you could feed her daily ration in this now tested hay.

Regards,

Kathy Brinkerhoff

SE/WI  10/12


-


Kerry Isherwood
 

Hi Kathy,

Hopefulky I can clarify

....."25% of you mare's diet is untested hay (unsoaked) and from what I understand from your post your gelding is fed the same hay (soaked) and it is at least 50% of his diet and soon to be 100% (?)."....

Sorry for the confusion. Firstly, my mare: she is doing well on the ODTBC as >75% of her diet (the 5 lbs/days is the maximum; it is some of last years first cut that is quite poor quality mixed grass hay). She just nibbles on it throughout the day and the most she gets is 5 lbs, but usually less. With the 15-lbs of ODTBC/day, she is more than adequately meeting her 1-2% body weight in forage that, as Ive read many times, as ODTBC is a completely balanced diet in and unto itself (with addition if iodized salt/flax/VitE). Whatever she is getting from the nibbles of long stem hay in the haynet is minimal. Yes, I'd love to know exactly whats in the 5-lbs a day of hay she eats but its just not practical at this point in time for me to buy small lots of hays and have each analyzed at $56/a pop when im using so little.

However, when my gelding stabilizes from his latest insulin crisis, which is hopefully very soon, I will need to procure a large load of analyzed hay to feed the him, the one who gained too much weight on ODTBC when they comprised the bulk of his diet (thru winter into spring). He is in moderate to heavy work but the cubes still add too much weight now that the need for extra calories for winter warmth has abated (meaning, he was on 20-lbs ODTBC plus free choice analyzed hay all winter living out clipped & blanketed. He maintained perfect weight & insulin levels thru winter. In spring i dropped the cubes to 15-lbs, then 10-lbs, along with free choice analyzed hay and he still gained weight. I did not see how *much* weight he had gained until he got into an insulin crisis beginning of this month when theoretically he should not have. Extensive testing only showed iron overload that is definitely an old problem from eating god only knows what in the eight years before his IR diagnosis.

My mare & gelding live on different farms and do not eat the same hay. He is eating a 2015 first cut mixed grass that is grown/baled by the farm where he is boarded. I feed the hay they have bc, well, its part of the board i pay for. In the past the same fields & cut have analyzed well below 8% ESC+starch. In the Northeast it has been a difficult season for first cuts of hay due to an early drought. Loads have been small. Regardless, my gelding got into an insulin crisis in early June and went on the Emergency Diet (only soaked grass hay, nothing else, no cubes). He was indeed footsore for a few days. Once that ended i re-introduced the iodized salt, vit E oil, and flax slowly and watched for signs of hoof soreness returning. It did not. A few more days passed and his wild frantic behavior began to mellow out--thats when I know his insulin is back down into his "normal" (mid 20s uU/dL). I could draw blood now to be sure he's in good shape but as we are entering the weekend i will wait until Monday for a fresher blood sample. It wont hurt him to have a few more days of soaked hay. With confirmation of blood results showing a good insulin level has been acheived, I will then take him off the soaked hay and gradually switch over to something unsoaked that has been analyzed. If the farm where he boards does not have a long-term supply that is practical to analyze, then I will buy my own hay. Either way the gelding (and mare) will go onto an analyzed hay & balanced diet. I choose to keep the mare on cubes bc she maintains weight well on them, theyre easy to buy, transport, and store at my home barn where my mare lives.

....." I don't understand what you mean when you say you will analyze his hay and get him a custom supplement when the time comes? What time is that? ".....

that time is when his insulin has returned to his "normal", as I stated above, i believe it already has but being thorough and bc i can, I will send a blood sample for insulin test to confirm. Then he will wean off the soaked hay and onto something analyzed and I will definitely balance his vit/min supp to his hay bc he is having trouble staying controlled, which may or may not be the iron overload issue.

....."Addressing the iron overload issues starts with a hay analysis. I, also, think it would be prudent to know what the 5#'s of hay is contributing to you mare's diet or if you could feed her daily ration in this now tested hay."....

of course, i agree completely! The mare is not iron overloaded at present and Ill kill two birds with one stone by locating an abundant hay source that i can analyze and feed both horses (although I will opt to keep the mare on ODTBC bc shes doing very well on current diet plan. I dont think its necessarily better to have her on long-stem hay if doing fine on the cubes. Her routine insulin checks have been staticly "normal" for her (20s uU/dL)
Maybe your confusion is from why I dont already have an analyzed hay in use--thats bc of the crappy spring weather we've had, sparse hay supplies, and waiting to see where I can most likely find a consistent & abundant hay source. My local suppliers are bringing in hay daily so likely next week if my geldings blood results are good Ill decide on my best hay option & have it analyzed.

Hope this clears things up. Sorry not proofed or edited--long day!

Kerry in NY
Sept 2014