up date on princess with new vet..... sue & princess


sue wolf <wolffarm4@...>
 

hello everyone,
it was a very long day for princess and me. the new vet was out shes from Cleveland equine and she has a blacksmith that specialize  in founder hoof issues  horses..
after the x-rays.  I will post them when I get them. she had abases in all different spots in her hoof wall. I did open some up but not all them . there is one close to the coffin bone that we hope we get it before it goes in to the bone.. she has good depth in the sole, the trimming was not to off I did. but I didn't take the toe back as far as he did.. shes now on  previcox-1/2 tab a day for 7 days then down to 1/4 tab a day.. isoxsuprine-10 tabs 2X's a day and on minocycline 10 caps 2X a day..them did a  block on her feet so they could work on her feet.
the blacksmith opened the abases most of her front of one hoof up as much as he could with out harming the support of the hoof and the vet and him open up pathways in the hoof wall were all the infections was as best as they could and disinfected them and washed them out with some kind of a bacteria killer. them she left and the black smith did a little more trimming and made wooden clogs and glued then on her. packed the open spots with some kind of crushed pill and said this will kill any bacteria and go into the hoof and the blood will help clear things up.. then packed it with iodine something else.. and wrapped it.. he did the same with the other hoof. shes now standing better on her hoofs and the block is worn off.. I have to call both of them tomorrow and let them know how she is.the blacksmith is coming back to re-wrap and put some of that stuff in it to help keep killing the infection..the vet took a sample of the infection in the hoof to see what it is just to make sure we have the right stuff to kill it.. don't want to take any chances . the black smith said if the infection does not go to her bone it will take some time but she'll be ok, if it does we have to go to plan B and go from there...  but he said if it did we can still get her going good again... she has some bone lost in her bone (coffin),  but there not worried about it and said they seen worse and the horse was a good as new in 7 months..
the vet wanted a list of everything I was feeding princess and said she would like to see her get a little more protein. but everything was right on and she want to check her later for IR and cushing.. she would like her to be out of pain and moving around on her own better first..
between the vet bill and blacksmith I could of bought another horse..oh well,  it wouldn't be my princess. so on we go.. 
If I have anything to say about it she'll live till a ripe old age..
sincerely,
Sue & princess
oh 6/11




Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Sue,

Thanks for giving us an update. Glad that things seem to be moving in a better direction for Princess. Will be on the lookout for the latest xrays. Were any done after all the trimming and clogs were applied? It's a good thing that the vet took samples of the infection to culture to make sure it is being addressed with the correct medications.

Just a few thoughts for you to ponder.

How long is she supposed to be on the Isoxsuprine? It has been found to not be very effective when used orally in horses. The J-herb you were using(?) has much better vaso-dilating properties. IF she is on J-herb, shouldn't use it along with Previcox. What is the actual milligrams of the Previcox pill you are using half of?

Nothing applied to the sole will get into her blood to help infection as there is no blood supply anywhere near that area. All the blood vessels are tightly hugging the coffin bone and in the digital cushion. If needed, Lower Limb Perfusion would be one thing that could be done. Another is using sterile maggots.

As far as her diet is concerned, I thought Princess was on a mineral balanced diet? If so, then she has no need for any extra protein. Unfortunately, most vets do not understand that the amount of protein needed  is not based on the percent protein of the feeds but on the actual amount in grams that is being ingested. In an IR horse, excess protein can be a lamintis trigger so not a situation of "more can't hurt".

Sue, with your care Princess will outlive most of us. She is indeed a "Princess" and so incredibly lucky to have you as her person.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team






sue wolf <wolffarm4@...>
 

hi,
Princess is doing good today her front feed are under her most of the time but when she lays down and gets up she has them out some but not like she did before.. YEA... the vet and blacksmith called and was worried she would be sorer today but shes a trooper and doing better then she was before they worked on her.. shes on the Isoxsuprine  20 mg and its for the for I think its 50 days. or until I run out. I have 1000 tabs.. the vet is going to come back out but would like to give princess a little more time to see how things go.. and she is not on the j-herb right now. I was giving her bute so there no j-herb in her system.
the infection. her hoof is taken off in the front close to the  bone and shes getting it washed out with meds and then packed with some pill crush up and packed in to help kill and work into all the little spots.
the provicox is 227 I'm not sure what that means? she gets that 1/2 for 7 days and then 1/4 till they run out I have 10 tab's.. we hope she will be out of pain before we use all of them. shes using it for pain because she does not want her on bute.. 
about the minocycline, that was just a little extra safety thing we wanted to do. when he opened her hoof up we did hit blood between the infection  and with the one being so close to the bone. if it did get to the bone before we got it, it would give her that little extra fighting power. , 
the protein. she is only getting 1 pound of standlee alfalfa pellets a day total she was getting 1/2 pound so she/we did not up it much. we need to add a little more for her she losing her body tone and tiring to get her to put some weight back on her she shes not so skinny.. she has hay 24/7 and timothy cubes most of the day. we are feeding the other back field and yes shes on a balanced diet but the back field was low in protein it might be a little off by adding 1/2 pound more of alfalfa.
the leg perfusion we are going to do that but she does not want to do that now until we get the infection under control. she seen were it was done and it pushed the infection in the leg and made thing worse..
the x-rays are only before the hoofs were done.. sorry
The blacksmith is coming out friday and I'm going to try and get photos of her up warped. should be able to... I'll post then too.. 
My husband came home from work on wednesday when I had everyone her working on her. the drive was packed. I even had the neighbor come over to make sure everything was ok. 4 big trucks and a x-ray van..  my husband came in the barn when I was holding princess, she got very jumpy when I left her so I had to stay with her, he handed me the credit card and said love you hope this works, I'm home if you need me... said hi to everyone.. never asked how much it cost ! sill hasn't.. hes just happy to see her doing better... gotta love him.... 
never would of thought the blacksmith does take plastic..
keep you posted....

 sue & princess
oh 6/11



On Thursday, June 25, 2015 2:23 PM, "shilohmom@... [EquineCushings]" wrote:


 
Hi Sue,

Thanks for giving us an update. Glad that things seem to be moving in a better direction for Princess. Will be on the lookout for the latest xrays. Were any done after all the trimming and clogs were applied? It's a good thing that the vet took samples of the infection to culture to make sure it is being addressed with the correct medications.

Just a few thoughts for you to ponder.

How long is she supposed to be on the Isoxsuprine? It has been found to not be very effective when used orally in horses. The J-herb you were using(?) has much better vaso-dilating properties. IF she is on J-herb, shouldn't use it along with Previcox. What is the actual milligrams of the Previcox pill you are using half of?

Nothing applied to the sole will get into her blood to help infection as there is no blood supply anywhere near that area. All the blood vessels are tightly hugging the coffin bone and in the digital cushion. If needed, Lower Limb Perfusion would be one thing that could be done. Another is using sterile maggots.

As far as her diet is concerned, I thought Princess was on a mineral balanced diet? If so, then she has no need for any extra protein. Unfortunately, most vets do not understand that the amount of protein needed  is not based on the percent protein of the feeds but on the actual amount in grams that is being ingested. In an IR horse, excess protein can be a lamintis trigger so not a situation of "more can't hurt".

Sue, with your care Princess will outlive most of us. She is indeed a "Princess" and so incredibly lucky to have you as her person.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team








Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Sue, your husband is a saint as well. Princess is beyond lucky.

That dose of Previcox (canine formulation of firocoxib) is a HUGE overdose. It is appropriate for an approximately 2500lb horse and I don't believe Princess is anywhere near that size. Even 1/4 of that pill is STILL overdosing for her size. Previcox does have the potential for serious side effects, just like any other NSAID does, esp when it is overdosed. Please have a read here:

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/AnimalVeterinary/Products/ApprovedAnimalDrugProducts/DrugLabels/UCM050387.pdf

Totally understand giving minocycline - it is related to doxycycline and is safe to use in IR horses.

Upping the alfalfa could be problematic as Princess has shown herself to be quite sensitive to feed ingredients. Alfalfa is known to make many IR horses footsore so it doesn't seem to be the best choice here. Plus, it will throw off your calcium/phosphorus ratios as alfalfa is quite high in calcium. She is likely losing weight because of pain - she needs more total calories rather than just upping an arbitrary ingredient. Pain can cause an individual to need double the calories (or more) to maintain condition. If you need to add protein, whey protein isolate would be a better choice. If this was my girl, I'd ask one of the hay gurus or Dr. Kellon to help you tweak her diet so as to keep it balanced and keep it providing all the proper nutrients she needs to heal.

Sounds like they did a good job of getting as much infectino out as was possible and opening access areas to the rest. The Regional Limb Perfusion is used to get the infection under control in cases where oral meds do not work. It is very difficult to get enough antibiotic into infected hoof areas any other way. More info on it in the files here:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/Regional%20Limb%20Perfusion/

Hugs to both of you.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team






lj friedman
 

Why does pain require a horse to be fed 2 x regular feed to maintain condition?  lj friedman san diego nov 2014.


janieclougher@...
 

Hi, Sue - I am so glad Princess is feeling better.  She is very lucky to have you (and your husband!) in her camp.

I just want to second Lavinia's information about Previcox (and the rest of the excellent information about the alfalfa, minocycline etc).  The correct dose for a horse is .045 mg per lb body weight; for Princess at 770 lbs, that would be 34.65 mg, or just over a tenth of a 227 mg tablet.  Half a tablet is over 3 times the recommended dose; a quarter of a tablet is 1.6 times the recommended dose.  The correct dose for her would be half of a 57 mg tablet.

This is a common problem with using Previcox, the dog formulation of firocoxib, for horses. The dose of firocoxib for dogs is 2.27 mgs per pound body weight.  That is fifty times the dose that is suitable for a horse, so you can see where overdosing can creep in.  The Previcox dose for Princess should be exactly the same dose one would give to a small standard dachshund - weird, but true.  Please toss the 227 mg tabs, or keep them for your dogs, and get some 57 mg tabs for her, using half of one of those tabs.  Check with your vet, of course (especially don't use them on your dogs without clearing it with the vet first), but you will find that is the correct dose.


Big hugs to you and Princess,

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory5/files/princesslegacy/

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC 09
ECIR mod/support
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/

 




---In EquineCushings@..., <wolffarm4@...> wrote :

hi,
Princess is doing good today her front feed are under her most of the time but when she lays down and gets up she has them out some but not like she did before..

the provicox is 227 I'm not sure what that means? she gets that 1/2 for 7 days and then 1/4 till they run out I have 10 tab's.. we hope she will be out of pain before we use all of them. shes using it for pain because she does not want her on bute.. warped. should be able to... I'll post then too.. 








Lorna Cane
 


>Why does pain require a horse to be fed 2 x regular feed to maintain condition? 

Pain does not necessarily require a horse to be fed 2X regular feed amounts.

When my horses sloughed all their hooves, I was feeding one of them ~ 6X his regular feed amounts. And he still lost about ~300 pounds.

I know I didn't answer your question. Just wanted to say that it depends.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup





sue wolf <wolffarm4@...>
 

Thanks for all your help and support.
 the previcox. I'm going to call the vet and make sure what I'm saying the correct dose . the 227 is on the side of the pill so I'm not sure if that's the dose.(sorry). will check and let you know. princess is no longer 770 she lost about 275 pounds and I got her back up to 560 something. I would have to check in the barn. she a skinny little girl..
question on the alfalfa she was getting it before 1/2 pound a day and adding 1/2 more pound would throw her off that much?
we should be cutting hay any day now if it would quit raining for 3 to 4 days.. so I would have a new batch to balance..
I'll look into the whey protein isolate.. what could I give her to get her to pick up some weight safely? the timothy balance cubes I think would be my best bet and safe.. shes eating A LOT of them now.. plus all the hay she wants..24/7
shes a little more sore today but not as bad as she was.. but not as good as she was yesterday.. could it be because the bute is working its was out of her system... 
I  hate theses damn abases that's the whole problem now.. . founder sounds easy now.. I know its not but it was in the beginning.. 
keep you updated.
sue & princess
6/11



On Friday, June 26, 2015 5:50 AM, "windybriars@... [EquineCushings]" wrote:


 

>Why does pain require a horse to be fed 2 x regular feed to maintain condition? 

Pain does not necessarily require a horse to be fed 2X regular feed amounts.

When my horses sloughed all their hooves, I was feeding one of them ~ 6X his regular feed amounts. And he still lost about ~300 pounds.

I know I didn't answer your question. Just wanted to say that it depends.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002

*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup






Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Sue,

Yes, you are correct. That 227 on the pill means it is 227mg per pill. The Previcox only comes in two sizes, the 57mg and the 227mg. Most vets tend to overdose the Previcox when prescribing it for a horse - maybe because they don't really read that horses are dosed at such a smaller rate than dogs are. It is a common - and huge - problem because overdosing firocoxib (the active ingredient) can have very real and dangerous side effects.

Although painful, abscesses are a good thing in that they are removing trapped material that needs to get out. Hoping that the infections are now going to be able to be brought under control as well.

If she will eat more of the ODTBC then by all means feed those to her. That would be the simplest way for you to up her calories right now and still maintain a well-balanced diet.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team