pony feet pics are up/ short notice... (my pony too!) Now Orion'


Deb Funderburk <hawkhilldeb@...>
 

Hi Tori-- I hope you will post more pictures of Orion's feet after your trims. I have been struggling with my pony Cory's feet for over a year now. I am too timid in my toe backing and it has really held up his progress, so I am interested in watching your efforts.

Deb and Cory in NC
July 2012
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/files/Deb%20Funderburk%20in%20NC/
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory5/photos/albums/1275105710


Tori Cullins
 

LOL, the pressure is on! I will post Deb and best of luck to you and Cory...  hope to get some up tomorrow. I sure hear you on being timid, but Lavinia is so clear and when she talks about 'tearing forces' oh man, i just want to destroy! Fear on both sides (timid to hurt, and scared he is hurting himself 'with each step'), I'm crossed-fingers keeping the balance by striving to 'do no harm'. I am so lucky that I can work on him daily... I stop when he starts getting nippy... he's pretty good natured, so I listen.  

One thing I am not quite clear on is the the 'how to" of taking the heels back. I saw Lavinia describe it fully on at least one previous email, and have been looking for it. I understand lowering, but bringing those 'buttresses back little by little' has escaped me (sorry Lavinia!). Somehow mechanically bringing them back by digging into, actual carving of the buttresses? I hope I'm not steering anyone wrong here. Will keep looking, but maybe Lavinia will clarify AGAIN... 

Tori and Orion, Hawaii
April 2015
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Tori Cullins
 

Alrighty Deb, photos are up of my trim of 12 hours or so ago (link below - 
the latest photos have a board or grey mat underneath). You piqued my interest and I'm glad you did. Boy, I barely took much off at all. The good thing is, tonight Orion was walking just as well after taking his boots off, as he was with boots on. That's a first! In quite some time anyhow....

Boy Deb, I was just reading over Cory's history, how frustrating! You sure are busting your buns for him... A big hug to you both. You have a lot more hoof starting out than I have, it is scary knocking all that back!  

So, I was a little surprised to see that I barely made a dent in Orion's hooves, after all that 'going to town' posturing. However, take a look at the RF, especially the corner of the outside heel buttress. Is that red coloration, bruising? Does it look somewhat bruised on up into the heel bulbs (medial aspect), and on the LF also? 

I see that the outside heel on his RF is also noticeably longer than the inside heel. When I am rasping on that (bruised?) outside is when he gets nippy and doesnt want to bring his foot up any longer (leans all his weight on it and locks his knee). It is also happens to be the last place I work, so may be his patience is up also... Maybe I should start there tomorrow and see how he acts.... 

Tori and Orion, Hawaii
April 2015

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Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Tori,

Will be happy to clarify that for you :) On the run right now so will post a bit later.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support team

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Deb Funderburk <hawkhilldeb@...>
 

Hi Tori-- Thanks so much for posting those pictures. I know what you mean when you say you didn't see much of a dent after "going to town" on his hooves. I especially notice that when working on the heels. They are like rock. The toe seems to come off better, but as I say, I cannot force myself to take the necessary amount off at once. But I know that Lavinia will probably say you need to go back more on those toes.

I see what you are saying about the pinkish color on the heels. Through the months I have come across layers and spots of red and black discoloration in Cory's feet, but it has never turned out to be fresh blood. It certainly makes me pause, though. Lavinia will let you know what it is.

Are you working on Orion while he laying down? For months that was the only way I could trim Cory, and now that he is up most of the time, I am having a hard time getting enough trimming in. He usually isn't comfortable enough to stand three-legged while I clumsily rasp away at his feet.

Have you had a look at Connie and Falki's trim in ECHoof? I think that is an example of someone taking the bull by the horns and getting the trimming done. It is inspirational. Here is the link:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/photos/albums/1908075121

Keep trimming and posting those photos. I need all of the education I can get by looking at other's hoof photos and Lavinia's mark-ups and comments.

Deb and Cory in NC
July 2012
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/files/Deb%20Funderburk%20in%20NC/
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory5/photos/albums/1275105710


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Tori,

Added a couple of new mark-ups for you.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1664970610

When you rasp, it feels like you are removing half the foot and you're absolutely certain that the next pass is going to cut off the coffin bone :) That's where pictures really come in handy because they remove the emotional aspect and show you exactly what is/isn't there. Orion's reaction is exactly what you are looking for so great job! The bonus to being able to do this yourself is you can do less each time but tackle it again the next day, or a few days later, so you can get ahead of the regrowth and maintain (or regain) as much soundness as possible at the same time. That's how feet wear - in tiny amounts every day. That's also how they grow - tiny amounts all the time. Yes, you still need to back the toes up more, RF is the worst.

Yes, the red coloring is old bruising showing up. You've just uncovered what was already sitting there. There is no blood supply in the walls - all the blood vessels tightly hug the coffin bone and are deep inside the frog and digital cushion. That's why you can drive nails into these areas. I can't tell from the pix whether the RF heel is longer but it was run forward more so the hoof is being twisted to the inside somewhat. Next time you do pix, set the camera on the ground, centered in front of each foot and get a shot.

Good idea to start on a different foot and go in a different order next time. Usually, when a horse won't lift a foot or takes it away, it's because thee opposite foot is the one having issues as to lift the one you want he must weight the other more. Try putting some padding under the opposite foot from the one you want to work on and see if that helps. May also need to put some under the rears as well - he has to shift weight back for you to work on a front and vice versa.

RF Solar: Orange V is where the heel buttress appears to be. Blue hashmarks denote the area that needs to have slivers gently removed until the actual heel-bar junction shows up. Don't take anything off the outside wall in that area or the height of the bar closest to the frog. Purple is flaring wall that needs to be beveled inward from the top to help stabilize it.

RF Solar angle: Yellow hashmarks denote the exfoliating sole that is running forward and building up under the front part of the foot. Gently rasp this level with the walls so it doesn't create pressure on the live sole and the leading edge of the coffin bone. Purple is the flaring walls that need to be brought inward from the top.

Does that help?

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1664970610

 




Tori Cullins
 

It sure does Lavinia thank you so much. Will you marry me? Thank you also Deb for your email and caring. I did see that recent hoof picture oh my gosh yep that's grabbing the bull by the horns and inspiration, as you say.
.. I am signed up for the NRC plus course so I need to get back to that and back out to raspng... thanks again guys you're the best!

Tori and Orion Hawaii
April 2015


Tori Cullins
 

Did some more work following Lavinia's lstest markups.., Afterwards, Orion did the cleanest pivot (barefoot!) i've seen since...??? I feel so uplifted, thank you group!

TORI & ORION HAWAII
April 2015


Maggie
 

>>Did some more work following Lavinia's lstest markups.., Afterwards, Orion did the cleanest pivot (barefoot!) i've seen since...??? I feel so uplifted

Tori, I do hope you took pictures!  Deb is not the only one following your trims and Lavinia's markups!  So happy for you as I do remember that feeling when I reached the point with my Chancey of finally being pain free!  You should see him fly around now!  Thanks to this group, and getting the DDT/E right, it's been 41/2 years since his last laminitis/founder episode!  

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
EC moderator/Primary Response
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/ 




Tori Cullins
 

I will keep posting Orion's updates and photos, just kinda busy right now, with work, the NRC+ class, and life, like everyone else! 

Eager to post the heel buttress backing attempts and get Lavinias take. I followed her detailed directions and was surprised to discover there was gold in them thar heels! I scraped away with the hoof knife and lo and behold, I found dead sole under the hard outer covering (under run hoof wall?). Oh boy, you know I wanted to go mining for gold upon seeing dead sole (how far down does THAT go?). I saved that for the next morning (this morning), hoping I'd be (and was) lucky to catch Orion lying down. 

I was able to inspect the progress better and took the buttresses back a little more, rather than dig down into the callous.  Pretty sure I hit waxy, orange-ish live sole (again, going back not down), and therefore the true buttress (?), so I stopped. Especially since Orion pulled his foot away, got up, and walked away in a pretty ouchy manner. Checked right away and he had a little bit of a digital pulse in RF only (foot I was working on)... Oops. 

Had to go to work, so put boots and pads on him. Noticed as his hoof gets smaller in diameter, boots are getting a little lose... I kept him in the paddock (rather than turn out), since I couldnt rescue him if big horse was to get after him - don't want to force him to move if sore. Got back around lunch, he seemed still a little ouchy. Tiny bit of digital pulse in RF still...  stuck my finger in top of boots to check for tightness, he hissed at me, so i loosened them up some. Pulse disappeared... oops. 

No trim this evening, or pulse, or ouchiness... not sure what caused it, but will get photos up for you all tomorrow ... 

Tori and Orion Hawaii
April 2015
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Tori Cullins
 

PS, Deb - I now have to catch Orion lying down (around dawn, if he is) if I want to take advantage of that for hoof trimming. However, just a couple months ago, he was down much more often than not. He has really made a comeback. He may have a pretty dang high pain tolerance, or a really big try/heart. He definitely has a strong will to live, and is a model patient/guinea pig. 

Most of the trim I'm doing now, hacking away at the toe and flared qtr.s, is done in soft substrate, be it wood chips, soft dirt or sand. I am literally going from the top down while he is standing on the foot. Well, actually side to side, but achieving that 'top down' for sure! 

I kinda dig a 'moat' around the hoof so I can hold the rasp at the parallel-to-ground (slightly beveled in if can) angle I want. Moat gets kinda deep as work progresses and Orion has to adjust as the ground gives away at times (especially with bevel in), but a lot easier on both than holding foot up... Which I still have to do every so often to work at those toe callouses, heel buttresses, check progress to match mark up goals, etc. 

Pics tomorrow... :)

Tori and Orion Hawaii
April 2015
ECHistory8

 




Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Tori,

Hmmm - is polygamy legal in Hawaii :)

You're doing a really great job and obviously, Orion is benefiting from your work. Way to go.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team



Tori Cullins
 

New photos of Orion up 
ECHistory8

 


Darn it, not all are sharp as I thought they were... Still a work in progress, but posting to show progress. I know the toes need to continue to come back further... 

Question on heels (we're looking for the 'true buttress'). Lavinia, is the live sole looking coloration in what I have 'slivered' out of the heel buttress, actually live sole? I've stopped work in the area, thinking that it is. On the other hand, it doesnt logically stand to reason that it would be live sole... Wish the photos were sharper... but it is inside the "V" that I am trying to bring back. Should they (heels) be lowered anymore? 

Added a photo of Orion aka "Air Fern" as he seems to be blowing up again. Will get a tape wieght on him, but wondering if it is true, then should I stop the Thryo_L and/or metfromin. I know the Thryo_L was for metabolism change/wieght loss only. 

Thank you

Tori and Orion Hawaii (still!)
April 2015

(case history updated)


Deb Funderburk <hawkhilldeb@...>
 

Wow, Tori, it looks like you have really been working. I can't wait to hear what Lavinia has to say. I see that you are opening up those pockets that Lavinia said you would reach if you were backing the toe correctly. Looks like (to my uneducated eye) the wall had completely separated there. It's nerve-racking, isn't it, to take that much toe off? How is Orion feeling? It does look as if he is putting on weight.

Deb and Cory in NC
July 2012
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/files/Deb%20Funderburk%20in%20NC/
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory5/photos/albums/1275105710


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Tori,

Nice work. This is going to be a work in progress in one way or another for at least 9 months as that is how long it takes to get a new hoof capsule to grow down from coronary band to the ground. I see you've gotten into all that funky stuff that is buried in the laminar wedge material. The dorsal shots really highlight the separation in there and the honeycomb-like texture. Keep moving back thru that area all the way from top to ground surface. I would probably do a soak of Clean Trax (or something similar) just in case there is anything hiding in there now that it's open to the air.

It doesn't appear as if you've actually gotten to the live sole plane yet as the "V" where the bar and wall meet is further forward than the area where the yellowish material is. As the heels still need to come back a bit more, you are right that it can't be the live sole yet. There is no definition visible between the wall and bar and the area is higher than the sole level further forward. Normal, healthy live sole has sort of a waxy, whitish-yellow color and texture. Damaged solar tissues can have a similar, but more yellowish tinge, as they incorporate oozing serum and blood into the tissue while it's being formed.

I added a quick mark-up:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1664970610

LF sole: Green circles are about where the heel buttresses should be. Yellow circles are where the outer wall  currently meets the bar. The flat, waxy-yellowish area between them is where the buttresses currently are. The purple chevrons are where the wall and bar most likely actually meet - the area forward of that is still merged excess bar/wall growth covering the sole.

I think you can actually lower the entire foot a bit, all the way around, including some of the sole that is really bulging in the front half as there has been quite a bit of growth since the xrays were taken two months ago. Maintain the angles that are there now and just use your rasp in an even, level fashion to gently get a bit of height off across the board. See how he feels with that. Then resume with backing the toes and dropping and backing the heels again. Make sense?

I agree that Sir Air Fern is too hefty, so time to weigh everything that passes his lips. As adorable as Thelwell ponies are in cartoons, in real life those characteristics are not healthy. He should not consume more than 2% of his ideal bodyweight per day in total feed. Would cut out the alfalfa as that is very high protein/calcium and not recommended for IR equines in general. As I'm not used to figuring the correct weight for a 12hh pony, I'm not sure what a good target weight for him is but 500lbs seems high. Will let those with more experience in that department "weigh in" on that...

Check here for the way to determine Body Conditions Score:

http://iceryder.net/bodyconditionscore.html

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team

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Tori Cullins
 

Thank you for the ‘nice work’ and more so for checking in on ‘Sir Air Fern’, it’s really appreciated!  


He feels great, besides being more subdued, which I think may be the APF (I started giving it to him now) and the magnesium? 


Decided to give him some ‘extra’ evening exercise, given his increasing bulk (40 lbs by wieght tape!). Besides turnout where he is covering substantial hilly ground, I’ve been doing stretch and isometric "activate your horse's core" exercises with him (as Kathy would say "Pony Pilates"). Figured he could do those even when he wasnt getting around much. 

 

He’s walking fine now, most of the time (see below), and still in boots during the day for turnout as our ground is very rocky. So I thought, we'll add more  ground exercises, starting with walking the inside perimeter of soft-footed paddock. Barefoot - he would NOT walk. Wait for it… he would trot, twist, leap about on ALL FOURS clacking his heels in the air, buck, fart, etc… perch on the his "hoof photo board" and "count", side-pass, back, ANYthing but walk. Poser…! Though I do notice he doesmost of this circling to the right and on his right lead. Only wants to spend short time on left lead/circle. Which actually is pretty normal for him, just been so long since he's moved out at all... 

 

However, what I find strange is that he is still ‘ouchy’ and stiff in the mornings (maybe from the aerials above?) – on his pivots in particular. Getting steadily better, but  still… is this morning stiffness after getting up from sleep normal? Hesitant to move, short and choppy strides, unitl he walks it out...  Arthritis or nerve damage?


Hoofs are still coming down little by little, he's about falling out of his boots, will need to buy a size (or two?) smaller pretty soon at this rate! Will post more photos soon and maybe even a video link to the 'flyin' pony :) 


Thanks to Kathy Brinkerhoff for the mineral balancing, caring, and the hot tip on taking the NRC Plus class. I think i need to balance my own personal minerals to keep up with my two 'balanced' horses now! It's so good to see them energetic and playful.  




 


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Tori,

Thanks so much for the update - makes my day :)

Exercise is certainly a good addition to an IR horse's schedule. Given how much damage there is/was to the hoof capsule connections, it would be good if you could encourage him to take it a bit easier for the time being as you don't want to have him cause more damage in his over-exuberance at feeling so much better. The positive thing is that these little guys tend to rebound much more quickly once the trim is heading in the right direction because you don't have gravity working against you. He could probably use some stretching exercises to loosen up his right side as it sounds like he can contract that well but not release/stretch/extend it so that would make it difficult for him to travel to the left. His LF had more pathology in the xrays as well so when traveling to the left, it takes more of the weight and might be more uncomfortable.

Being stiff in the morning makes sense and is probably a combination of factors. Payback for the shenanigans during the day coupled with the likelihood he doesn't move around as much over night, may be resting lying down for an extended period, so is stiff when he gets up and about first thing until the circulation gets going and everything loosens up. That he appears to work out of it is a very good sign.

Keep up the good work - hugs to the little imp.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team

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Tori Cullins
 

Got some good photos up of Orion's hoof wall separation at toes in the link below. Wow... Already starting to get beyond it the backing up of the toe in the right front hoof, so thought should get some well lit photos to show the separation at its worst (before it is gone). Will have sole photos to post hopefully tomorrow. Still havent mastered the taking of photo with phone, and holding hoof at same time. Any tips? For now, need to use regular point and shoot for those one handed shots.  Hmmm... maybe time to learn holding the hoof between the legs (look ma no hands!)

Tori and Orion, Hawaii (still) 
April 2015
Link below is to Orion delaminated hoof photos
ECHistory8

 




Tori Cullins
 

Photos up of Orion's sole and obliques. Sorry seems he was soaking in fresh manure on that right front... That was wire brush clean... No hurry, he's doing really well, just an update and photos are always revealing to ourselves as well!

Link below is to Orion hoof photos work in progress. 

 Tori and Orion, Hawaii (still) 
April 2015

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