I don't know what else to do


 

I feel like I'm at the end of my rope with Po again. The horse has never not had some level of inflammation in his hooves this entire past year. Even the few times he was moving ok and I could even ride him in the pasture, his feet were still warmer than my other horse's, and he was tip-toeing in boots over anything harder than grass. I had a certified barefoot trimmer out before Christmas to look at my horse's feet and he said my trims are fine. Any level of ouchiness has been attributed to his hoof capsule not being totally grown out when I ask this group. But here's what I don't understand- how can farriers and trimmers take a horse with severe founder and in a couple trims have the horse at the least moving well and the most running and bucking around? My horse has never had severe founder and yet it's been literally years since he's been totally sound. I can count on one hand the number of times he's felt good enough to run on one hand, and the following days he's always more sore. Po was moving around pretty well when I got back from vacation Sunday. And now he's limping in his front feet again. I have no idea why. His diet is balanced, his hay is being soaked for 12 hours, and he's on PQ. He has his own sandlot, pea gravel area, and dry lot. The trimmer recommended trying putting his supps in BP instead of the ODTBC just in case the cubes were too close to the 10% limit. It's to the point where I feel like my horse can't have any level of sugar or starch and that's impossible to attain. The vets look at me like I'm insane when they see him tip-toeing over concrete or caliche in boots and want to know why he's not shod. Well shoeing him at this point is a band-aid over a gigantic wound. He's got out on grass 2 times in the past 12 months and after each time it's like his sugar sensitivity gets worse and I have to tighten up the sugars and starches that much more. I can't tighten them anymore. Even when his blood work shows compensated, he's still not totally sound and I never know from one day to another how's he's going to be moving. I don't know what else to do to get the horse sound.


Coral & Po 

Sept 2013

Corpus Christi TX


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Coral%20and%20Poseido/



Sally Hugg
 

Hi Coral -

I'm very sorry that you are having so much trouble keeping Po comfortable with his feet. I know from experience how frustrating that is.

You wrote "But here's what I don't understand - how can farriers and trimmers take a horse with severe founder and in a couple trims have the horse at the least moving well and the most running and bucking around? "

I am a professional trimmer, and it is rare that I can trim a severe founder/laminitis case and have it moving well enough to even trot in 2 trims without a lot of support for the feet as well as tight diet control. Many times I can accomplish this with padded boots, but quite often I need to experiment with several different types of boots and find just the right pads to cushion and support the foot. I might need to use casts, glue on shoes or a combination of both. Bottom line is that I am often experimenting to find what will work for the individual horse at that moment in time and must be ready to change course and try something different as the feet change. One non IR founder case that I successfully rehabbed took over a year before he could even be comfortable in padded boots. He went through 3 complete hoof growth cycles before his feet returned to normal and I needed to shoe him for 9 months in Epona shoes to get him there. Frustrating? You bet, but I just kept looking for answers and trying different approaches to supporting his feet. Easycare has some great new pads in the Cloud boots that I really like and might be worth looking at.

I looked at your case history file. Are you still feeding the bermuda hay that you tested last April? At 6.7% starch that may be too high for Po. It is my understanding that soaking won't help much with reducing starch, so that might be an area to look at. 

Bottom line - don't get discouraged!

Sally Hugg
N. California
2003
 




Kathy Brinkerhoff
 

Hi Coral,

Are you currently feeding Henry's First Cut hay?  If so, the ESC is 5.9% and the Starch is 2.9%.  I know how difficult it was for you to source hay and when we reviewed this hay analysis we discussed  that if Po showed signs of being foot sore that you would try soaking this hay and this is what you currently doing. 

 This is from your post #198473

"I have no idea why. His diet is balanced, his hay is being soaked for 12 hours, and he's on PQ"


The recommendation is to soak the hay for 1 hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water.  I wonder if the hay may be reabsorbing sugar from its "bath" water.


Here is a link to a file on hay soaking and if you search the archives you will find numerous posts on the topic.


I ask other Members to weigh in on the hay soaking time recommendations.


Kathy Brinkerhoff


SE/WI  10/12

 

Equine Cushings and Insulin Resistance

 








Lorna Cane
 




>>The recommendation is to soak the hay for 1 hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water.  I wonder if the hay may be reabsorbing sugar from its "bath" water.


<snip>


>>I ask other Members to weigh in on the hay soaking time recommendations.


I thought that the soaking time needed to be reduced,too,Kathy.




sue wolf <wolffarm4@...>
 

Hello,
you live in tx? correct. maybe I can help you find someone that does the ozone on your horse it takes out the  inflammation in his hooves and in the rest of the body.. I don't think that anyone in the group knows much about it.  but I have studied it and have talked to vets that do it and has seen the results first hand. amazing.. its what you can call new cutting edge. look up princess file. I will be posting new photos this week end on her hoofs I have been giving it to her steady for 2 weeks every other day and starting this weekend she will get it everyday.. it stops abscess from forming and helps heal at rate its hard to explain.. example. princess had a sore that she had for months and months and I could not get it to heal it was from her laying down. now in 2 weeks its healed. not just scabbed over its healed with her skin. the hair has not grown back but you can see its starting. I know a person that does the ozone in tx he should be able to help.. you can call me if you want to if you have any questions.. it does really work.. the vet that does do this said it will help her get her ir in check better and make her body work like it should but I would have to still watch her diet and treat her as a ir horse but she should not be so sensitive to sugar like she is now.. 
time will tell.. read up on it. Judith shoemaker with always helpful veterinary.. she only touches on isome of the subjects..
sincerely,
Sue & princess
oh 6/11
number 440-422-3402


On Friday, January 8, 2016 6:08 PM, "windybriars@... [EquineCushings]" wrote:


 



>>The recommendation is to soak the hay for 1 hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water.  I wonder if the hay may be reabsorbing sugar from its "bath" water.


>>I ask other Members to weigh in on the hay soaking time recommendations.

I thought that the soaking time needed to be reduced,too,Kathy.





 

Long (and short) soaking won't remove starch. In my several hay tests of soaked hay, starch wasn't affected at all. 

IME, two bad result of long-term soaking are significantly increased iron and decreased phosphorus. I cannot be sure if that varies regionally (based on different soils, different iron compounds, different grasses), but here, soaking makes balancing more difficult because large quantities of phosphorus must be added to the diet while iron ppm increases substantially.

I learned that the only way to keep iron levels near those of dry hay is to quickly but thoroughly rinse in cold water, then soak the rinsed hay  the shortest time possible with the hottest water available, say 15 minutes,  completely drain away that water and then to do a second soak for the balance of the time. Finally, a thorough, lengthy rinse was done.  That's a lot of water in a drought.

Such thorough soaking removes more than sugar: it also removes phosphorus. I had hays that, as a practical matter, couldn't be sufficiently supplemented with phosphorus because the amounts were so high that the supplements were not palatable.

Cass for Satra and Cayuse
Sonoma County, Calif Oct. '12
---In EquineCushings@..., <kathbrink@...> wrote :

"I have no idea why. His diet is balanced, his hay is being soaked for 12 hours, and he's on PQ"


The recommendation is to soak the hay for 1 hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water.  




Kathy Brinkerhoff
 

Hi Cass,

Could you please tell us by % of the sugar (ESC) that was reduced in the hay using your thorough soaking process as you describe in your post?  Was it 30% as posted here by other Members using the recommended soaking times or was it lower with your method?   Since you are using hot water I assume when you say you do a second soak you mean a soak in hot water for the remaining 15 minutes, is that correct?

"Such thorough soaking removes more than sugar: it also removes phosphorus."

Thank you,

Kathy Brinkerhoff

SE/WI  10/12







Nancy C
 

Hi Coral

Want to support Sally's comments. I looked over your CH.  Would love clarity on which hay you are feeding and what the ESC and Starch is.  As stated by others, you cannot soak out starch.  You stated that as of July you were on  fully balanced tested hay, less than 10% starch.

I haven't followed Po on ECHoof lately but recall the summer discussions about tightening the trim.  This can take time as you know.

When I first started on this journey, a "founder specialist" pulled shoes and trimmed Beau after  rotation in January 2003 or so. This was back in the day when you were supposed to keep them on Bute and in the stall for months on end.  I shudder to remember just how long we did this.  Just from shoe removal and that trim, Beau was bucking in place in the stall from the relief.  Should he have been?  Probably not. He certainly was not cured of the rotation.

When I subsequently started working with Dr Bowker on the trim and foot rehab, we made sure there was no running around.  None. He was outside but in an area where he could not get a full head of steam.  His rotation compared to some we see was not extreme. We had a tight trim, but a capsule with good connection was not grown out yet, and he could easily have hurt himself.  Do you need that level of caution?  Maybe not, but I have learned in subsequent years that they can easily overdo before they are ready and set themselves back, especially if the trim is not well balanced. 

It appears you were seeing "rotation" based on hoof capsule angles in November. This rotation could build up to the soreness you saw in December. His running around after the chiro appt on feet not yet tightly in the capsule could contribute. These guys need tight trims and good growth to become stable and to get over being sore. They can be set back easily by any combination of a diet that is not tight, seasonal rise or other Dx issues, poor hoof form, and movement beyond what they are ready for.

Probably not what you want to hear. I know. It's hard work.  Hang in there and above all give Po a hug.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
ECIR Group Inc.

 




---In EquineCushings@..., <barehoof@...> wrote :



He went through 3 complete hoof growth cycles before his feet returned to normal and I needed to shoe him for 9 months




 

Kathy/Sally (and everyone else who responded),

Thank you all for responding and, I apologize- I thought I had the latest hay analysis in my case history but I didn't see it, so I just uploaded it. As Kathy said, starch is 2.9%. When I said I was soaking for so long to decrease the sugars AND starches, I misspoke. I remember from the conference and my mineral balancing with Kathy that starch doesn't decrease with soaking. And, it was extremely difficult to find the hay that I found. Here where I live, everyone is concerned about protein % and couldn't give a flip about sugars or starches so hay sellers kind of looked at my like I was nuts when I wanted to test their hay BEFORE buying. 

I will try soaking for less time to see if that helps. I will try testing the soaked hay to see what results I get. Unfortunately I'm going to need to start the search for more hay soon to get a new year's supply. :(

I didn't know that about the trimming: keeping them from not moving too much. I thought movement was GOOD. I took hoof pics the last time I trimmed but because of technological difficulties I haven't uploaded them yet. I will try to get to that. 

I have pretty much decided I'm going to turn over Po's trims to the certified barefoot trimmer, and just do maintenance trims in between. I don't know anything about Epona shoes or how to put on any composite shoes. He recommended a different style of boots and I'm going to get those for Po. 

I'm very frustrated because it seems like it's always one set-back after another with Po. And he just isn't getting better. His feet are generally better than they were when I first started trimming him, but it's incredibly frustrating to many spend hundreds of dollars a month on a horse that isn't showing any definite benefit from it.

Coral & Po
Sept 2013
Corpus Christi, TX






---In EquineCushings@..., <kathbrink@...> wrote :

Hi Coral,

Are you currently feeding Henry's First Cut hay?  If so, the ESC is 5.9% and the Starch is 2.9%.


The recommendation is to soak the hay for 1 hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water.  I wonder if the hay may be reabsorbing sugar from its "bath" water.

 








Sally Hugg
 

Hi Coral -

I just looked at your photos on EC Hoof - nice job with the pictures :). 

For an owner trying to trim a case like this you have done a pretty good job, so take heart in that. There are some things that can be improved in the trim. Your trimmer should be able to recognize those areas and show you what to do. While Po's feet have good concavity, his soles appear to be very thin and there are sole ridges at the toe. In cases with thin soles I don't trim those ridges. Very thin soled horses often can't handle much pressure on their soles and it's possible that even the nice deep sand environment you have provided Po may be too much for his feet right now. That is where some experimenting with foot wear comes in handy. Most trimmers carry a variety of boots/pads and assorted footwear in their trucks to try out, so you shouldn't have to spend hundreds of $$ trying things that may or may not work.

I think with better boots and padding that you will make Po a lot more comfortable. Hang in there!


---In EquineCushings@..., <coralrenee@...> wrote :

Kathy/Sally (and everyone else who responded),

I have pretty much decided I'm going to turn over Po's trims to the certified barefoot trimmer, and just do maintenance trims in between. I don't know anything about Epona shoes or how to put on any composite shoes. He recommended a different style of boots and I'm going to get those for Po. 

Coral & Po
Sept 2013
Corpus Christi, TX




 








Candace Costis
 

--------------------------------------------

On Sun, 1/10/16, coralrenee@gmail.com [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: [EquineCushings] Re: I don't know what else to do
To: EquineCushings@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, January 10, 2016, 10:20 AM


 Hey, Coral. I am a beginner here, too. I've been removing layers of hoof and have been shocked at the amount of infection I'm finding in there. Without exercise the hooves are growing really fast. Today I removed as much toe as I dared but I also angled up the floor of the hoof at the toe. My Annie seemed much more comfortable. And I'm with you. I find this hoof padding/shoe business daunting. Well, onward through the fog.
Candace
Austin area, Texas.









Kathy/Sally (and everyone else who
responded),
Thank you
all for responding and, I apologize- I thought I had the
latest hay analysis in my case history but I didn't see
it, so I just uploaded it. As Kathy said, starch is 2.9%.
When I said I was soaking for so long to decrease the sugars
AND starches, I misspoke. I remember from the conference and
my mineral balancing with Kathy that starch doesn't
decrease with soaking. And, it was extremely difficult to
find the hay that I found. Here where I live, everyone is
concerned about protein % and couldn't give a flip about
sugars or starches so hay sellers kind of looked at my like
I was nuts when I wanted to test their hay BEFORE
buying. 
I will try
soaking for less time to see if that helps. I will try
testing the soaked hay to see what results I get.
Unfortunately I'm going to need to start the search for
more hay soon to get a new year's supply.
:(
I didn't know
that about the trimming: keeping them from not moving too
much. I thought movement was GOOD. I took hoof pics the last
time I trimmed but because of technological difficulties I
haven't uploaded them yet. I will try to get to
that. 
I have pretty
much decided I'm going to turn over Po's trims to
the certified barefoot trimmer, and just do maintenance
trims in between. I don't know anything about Epona
shoes or how to put on any composite shoes. He recommended a
different style of boots and I'm going to get those for
Po. 
I'm very
frustrated because it seems like it's always one
set-back after another with Po. And he just isn't
getting better. His feet are generally better than they were
when I first started trimming him, but it's incredibly
frustrating to many spend hundreds of dollars a month on a
horse that isn't showing any definite benefit from
it.
Coral &
PoSept 2013Corpus Christi,
TX
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Coral%20and%20Poseido/
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHoof/photos/albums/844830912
 




---In EquineCushings@yahoogroups.com,
<kathbrink@...> wrote :

Hi
Coral,
Are you currently
feeding Henry's First Cut hay?  If so, the ESC is 5.9%
and the Starch is 2.9%.
The recommendation is to
soak the hay for 1 hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot
water.  I wonder if the hay may be reabsorbing sugar from
its "bath" water.


Equine
Cushings and Insulin Resistance The
ECIR Yahoo group provides a place for everyone who has a
horse with Cushing’s Disease and Insulin Resistance in
their care to share expe...


View on groups.yahoo.com


Preview by Yahoo
 















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