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Kathy Billek
Hi everyone. I have a 32-36 year old donkey who was diagnosed with Cushings about 6 months ago. He was tested for ACT(?) and it was very high. Vet put him on Perscend. he was on half tab after about two weeks he went off his feed. she had me take him off meds for a week and restart on a quarter tab. he was on that for a month and was off feed again. stopped medication for 3 days and restarted when he started eating well again. Has anyone had experience with this type of reaction? I was looking at natural supplements and was wondering if things like SmartPak help with this is there somethings that work better for donkeys . he has had on bout of Laminitis and got it settled down nothing since he is underwieght by at least 100 lbs and is currently on beet pulp; ohiodehy timothy cubes with beet pulp and senior feed without molassees. trying to limit his sweets and put some weight back on. any help or suggestions would be appreciated. Vet is due out on Wednesday for annual shots check up and teeth float if warm enough our. must be above 30 per vet. Live in Northen WI so that is always questionable. thanks all. Kathy
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janieclougher@...
Hi, Kathy, and welcome to the list! First things first: what senior feed is your donkey on? Most bagged senior feeds are way too high in starch, and will make any issues worse. Many, if not most, donkeys are insulin resistant, and need feed of less than 10% ESC plus starch. One way to help combat the "Pergolide Veil" is to start out at a low dose of 0.25 mg daily, and increase by 0.25 mg every 3 or 4 days. In your case, I think adding APF or APF Pro could help a lot. I will confess, the lack of appetite occurring a couple of weeks after using pergolide is not the usual thing: normally, if there is going to be a Pergolide Veil, it is apparent almost immediately, or within the first week. Donkeys, however, are very special, and so I cannot say for certainty that this is not the donkey version of the Veil. Another consideration is the initial diagnosis, because donkeys appear to differ from horses in their baseline ACTH (as well as so many other things). Please could you post the lab results here; and then go to EC History 8 and fill out a case history? I will send you an invitation. Instructions on how to do it are in the Files section. https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/info The list philosophy is Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise. Diagnosis is by blood tests: blood should be pulled from a non-fasting horse (or pony) in a quiet barn; blood spun, separated, and frozen or chilled asap, then sent to the lab at Cornell on ice. Ask for insulin, glucose, leptin and ACTH. More information here: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/ groups/EquineCushings/files/2% 20%20Diagnosis%20Diet%20Trim/ and here: Diet is supremely important, in some ways more for what is not fed: no pasture, sweet feeds, oats/grain, carrots, apples, iron-containing supplements. Diet consists of grass hay or haylage, with ESC (soluble sugars) and starch of less than 10%, plus minerals balanced to the forage, plus vitamin E, salt, and flaxseed or flaxseed oil. One can use a carrier of beet pulp (rinsed, soaked, and rinsed) as a safe feed to get the supplements in. The Temporary Emergency Diet uses hay soaked for 1 hour in cold water, or 30 minutes in hot water, with the water drained where the horses can't get at it; plus vitamin E, salt, and ground flaxseed in a safe carrier such as beet pulp (rinsed, soaked, rinsed). Kathy, if you read my post to Janet, I mention a way to soak hay in a sub-freezing environment, and give some links to hay-soaking tips. More info on Temporary Emergency Diet here: Trim: This is a trim physiologically balanced to the internal shape of the coffin bone, with short toe and low heels. Trim is often a neglected or mis-understood piece of the puzzle. The wrong trim can retard healing, and even cause further tearing of the fragile laminae. The wrong trim will certainly contribute to continued pain. Donkeys can be tough, as so many people trim them to the "tin-can" model. They need the right trim as well, just modified slightly (and the key word here is "slightly") to the donkey anatomy. Exercise: This is the best EMS buster there is, but only if the pony/horse is comfortable and non-laminitic. A horse that has suffered laminitis needs a good 6 to 9 months of correct hoof re-growth before any kind of serious exercise can begin. There is also a ton of good information on the ecirhorse.org website. Give us a little more information; ask any and all questions Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy BC 09 ECIR mod/support http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/
---In EquineCushings@..., <kd7191@...> wrote : Hi everyone. I have a 32-36 year old donkey who was diagnosed with Cushings about 6 months ago........ |
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Kathy Billek
Jan Radar is not on Peroglide but on Perscend should he be on peroglide? what is the difference I will ask the vet for the lab tests they were send to Mich tech for processing. current feed is 2 cups of Prince Regency Senior Feed. Ohiodehy timothy hay cubes with beet pulp soaked and beet pulp since I am not able to get without molasses I rinse it and then soak it. On Sunday, March 6, 2016 10:20 PM, "janieclougher@... [EquineCushings]" wrote: Hi, Kathy, and welcome to the list! First things first: what senior feed is your donkey on? Most bagged senior feeds are way too high in starch, and will make any issues worse. Many, if not most, donkeys are insulin resistant, and need feed of less than 10% ESC plus starch. One way to help combat the "Pergolide Veil" is to start out at a low dose of 0.25 mg daily, and increase by 0.25 mg every 3 or 4 days. In your case, I think adding APF or APF Pro could help a lot. I will confess, the lack of appetite occurring a couple of weeks after using pergolide is not the usual thing: normally, if there is going to be a Pergolide Veil, it is apparent almost immediately, or within the first week. Donkeys, however, are very special, and so I cannot say for certainty that this is not the donkey version of the Veil. Another consideration is the initial diagnosis, because donkeys appear to differ from horses in their baseline ACTH (as well as so many other things). Please could you post the lab results here; and then go to EC History 8 and fill out a case history? I will send you an invitation. Instructions on how to do it are in the Files section. The list philosophy is Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise. Diagnosis is by blood tests: blood should be pulled from a non-fasting horse (or pony) in a quiet barn; blood spun, separated, and frozen or chilled asap, then sent to the lab at Cornell on ice. Ask for insulin, glucose, leptin and ACTH. More information here: and here: Diet is supremely important, in some ways more for what is not fed: no pasture, sweet feeds, oats/grain, carrots, apples, iron-containing supplements. Diet consists of grass hay or haylage, with ESC (soluble sugars) and starch of less than 10%, plus minerals balanced to the forage, plus vitamin E, salt, and flaxseed or flaxseed oil. One can use a carrier of beet pulp (rinsed, soaked, and rinsed) as a safe feed to get the supplements in. The Temporary Emergency Diet uses hay soaked for 1 hour in cold water, or 30 minutes in hot water, with the water drained where the horses can't get at it; plus vitamin E, salt, and ground flaxseed in a safe carrier such as beet pulp (rinsed, soaked, rinsed). Kathy, if you read my post to Janet, I mention a way to soak hay in a sub-freezing environment, and give some links to hay-soaking tips. More info on Temporary Emergency Diet here: Trim: This is a trim physiologically balanced to the internal shape of the coffin bone, with short toe and low heels. Trim is often a neglected or mis-understood piece of the puzzle. The wrong trim can retard healing, and even cause further tearing of the fragile laminae. The wrong trim will certainly contribute to continued pain. Donkeys can be tough, as so many people trim them to the "tin-can" model. They need the right trim as well, just modified slightly (and the key word here is "slightly") to the donkey anatomy. Exercise: This is the best EMS buster there is, but only if the pony/horse is comfortable and non-laminitic. A horse that has suffered laminitis needs a good 6 to 9 months of correct hoof re-growth before any kind of serious exercise can begin. There is also a ton of good information on the ecirhorse.org website. Give us a little more information; ask any and all questions Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy BC 09 ECIR mod/support ---In EquineCushings@..., wrote : Hi everyone. I have a 32-36 year old donkey who was diagnosed with Cushings about 6 months ago........ |
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Maggie
Hi Kathy, Prascend is the brand name of pergolide. Many of us use the encapsulated form of pergolide available from compounding pharmacies. It much more economical, especially when higher doses are needed. Here is a list of compounding pharmacies if you are interested: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/links/all/Compounding_Pharmacies If you do change to the compounded form, we recommend ordering only 30 days at a time and storing it in the door of the refrigerator. I looked at the Prince Regency Senior feed and it contains a whopping 22.8% starch! Starch is worse than sugar for causing an insulin spike as it converts 100% to glucose whereas sugar converts only 50% to glucose. It also contains a minimum of 7% fat, could be more. We want to stay less than or equal to about 4% fat. Also the fat that is listed in the guaranteed analysis is vegetable fat, which has more Omega 6 fatty acids than Omega 3's. We like ground flax seed for adding fat as the Omega3:6 ratio is about the same as grass, ~4:1. Beet pulp is a great way to help put weight on a PPID/IR horse. You can feed up to about 30% of your donkey's diet in BP. It's really important to get your donkey a properly mineral balanced diet. There are special requirements if you increase the BP to more than just enough to use as a carrier for supplements. Here's a list of people who can help you with diet balancing (first file in this folder): https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/7%20Help%20with%20Mineral%20Balancing/ Sorry if I missed it, but is your donkey still able to eat hay? It's good that you are rinsing it and soaking it the BP. We recommend that you add one more rinse after soaking. First rinse should be until clear, then soak and rinse again until the water runs clear. I googled beet pulp in northern Wisconsin and found this: http://www.labudde.com/ingredients/premium-beet-pulp-shreds/ They have several forms of BP. Look at: Where to Buy LaBudde Premium Shreds: Maybe one of those places is located near you and you could call and see if they have the non-molasses kind? Are you using the Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance cubes with the lavender label? Or their regular Timothy cubes? The Timothy Balance cubes are balanced according to Dr Kellon's specifications and can actually be used as a complete diet. You would only need to add salt, Vitamin E and ground flax seed. If your donkey has trouble chewing they can easily be soaked in warm water. Add only enough warm water to fluff them. You don't want to pour off any water as you would loose the balancing minerals. Please sign each time you post with your name (first is fine), date of joining and general location. See my signature below for an example. And please take a second to delete the message that you are responding to. It really helps to keep the reams of repeat information from piling up and makes searching the archives easier. Thanks! Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA March 2011 EC moderator/Primary Response https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/ |
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