Date
1 - 16 of 16
Deciphering hay analsis
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dbellusci
Hello all,
I am sorry to bother you folks with this but I am getting anxious about finding hay and what I was about to go pick up looks like this. I am not used to reading an analysis in this format and to me this hay looks unsuitable from a fiber standpoint. We have finally fixed the loose poop issue (years) by accidentally getting some soft 2nd cut. Caz is so much happier without the messy butt and tummy discomfort. I don't want to go back to stemmy hay. There is a lot of orchardgrass available here where I recently moved. I am not familiar with it but this guy said orchardgrass is too high in sugar and I want Timothy. 1) Is this hay safe s/s and are the fiber fractions as bad as I think? 2) Is orchardgrass usually high s/s? Someone sent me an analysis of "German" orchardgrass that is ridiculously low. 3) Am I dreaming when I think I can find second cut anything that Caz can safely tolerate? The hay I show here is expensive but very local and I wanted it as a backup in case I can't find anything. I thought I knew what I was doing (took NRC Plus) but this is confusing me. Thank you in advance, I so appreciate what I learn from you people. I have it in my photos as the very last picture.....sorry I couldn't figure out how to attach it more conveniently. Donna and Caz
Nov 8, 2016 Chesterfield, NJ https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=3907
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I can't quite see the numbers on your photo... you want {starch %} + {ESC % } = less than 10 %
ESC is ethanol soluble carbs I think one was 5.? and the other was 4.? but it was very blurry - maybe zoom in on the carb section and repost? -- Eva and Anske October 2017 Corvallis OR Case History Anske 9yo Friesian Mare https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Eva%20and%20Anske |
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also - you aren't bothering anyone!
-- Eva and Anske October 2017 Corvallis OR Case History Anske 9yo Friesian Mare https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Eva%20and%20Anske |
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dbellusci
-- Donna and Caz Thank you Eva for trying.....I tried adding some cropped sections but I think they are still blurry. I can read them on my end. The problem I mostly have with it is that there is no "as fed" column, only a dry matter column. The ESC is 5.8 and the starch 1.7. It looks very stemmy with ADF 40.4, and NDF 68.2. But like I said, all under the DM column, so not sure how to interpret that. Nov 8, 2016 Chesterfield, NJ https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=3907
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I have a gelding who doesn't tolerate stemmy coarser hay as well as my other horse--he scours. I try to make sure we have some softer hay as well, even if only a little, and he gets a much greater percentage of his diet as soluble fibre such as maxisoy or beet pulp. This seems to "dilute" the effect of the coarse hay somewhat.
He does not get footy on lucerne, so he gets about 750g of lucerne chaff with the maxisoy. I also give him mycosorb and L-glutamine. Not sure if the mycosorb does much (but I keep him on it due to weeds popping up if we get any rain), but the L-glut definitely helps. You'd want to steer clear of alfalfa for an IR horse, but could you give him a bit more beet pulp or other soluble fibre? -- Maxine and Indy (PPID) Canberra, Australia 2010 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933
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dbellusci
I could try that certainly if it comes down to it. In the past, beet pulp didn't agree with him....gassy maybe? Don't remember as it was long ago. It is just so frustrating that I can't tell if it is true that the Orchard grass is not good, when it is so abundant here. Thanks for the ideas -the L-Glutamine is something I've used for my dog but never thought of it for Caz.
Donna and Caz
Nov 8, 2016 Chesterfield, NJ https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=3907
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gypsylassie
Hi Donna,
Orchard grass can be fine. The sugars and starch numbers are determined by several factors. Time of day when it's mowed - The earlier the better. "Sugars" retreat down into the roots when it's dark and then rise back up
the blades of grass as the sun comes out. So the later in the day, if it's sunny, the higher the s/s will be.
Also, grass that is stressed by lack of rain or cold nights, will be pushing a lot of sugar in an attempt to stay alive.
2nd cutting is frequently lower in sugars because the grass gets established and stable.
2nd cutting is also usually softer.
1st cutting is often higher in s/s because the grass is working hard to get going in the spring. Once it produces seed heads, the s/s can be lower, but then when it's very mature, the s/s can come back up.
Yes, we all start to learn more about grass than we ever thought we'd need to. And farmers can give you some quizzical looks. (I smile, get a little "girly", and say things like, "I never knew there was so much to learn about
grass!" 😉. And I've only had one farmer say I should send my boys to slaughter and get good, normal horses! All I could do was laugh charmingly.)
Around here, we usually deal with farmers who make hay as an extra income crop, not big hay businesses. So when I go to look at hay with my long laundry list of requirements, I'll pull samples from as many bales as I can access,
in different areas of the stack, and I also buy several bales. I've found that farmers are more likely to hold onto the hay until I get results back, if I buy several. It shows my intentions are serious.
And even if the hay comes back too high in s/s, the few sample bales can be soaked or added in small amounts to the safe hay I'm feeding at the time.
Sadly, around here, most grassy fields are full of headed out foxtail grass by the 2nd cutting, so I'm limited to 1st cutting hay.
This is also alfalfa country, so getting straight grass often means hay from old pastures, etc. not many hay fields dedicated to straight grass.
Good luck with your ongoing hay search. Hopefully you'll connect with a couple of sources that will be good suppliers thru the years.
Laura K Chappie & Beau over the bridge
N IL 2011
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dbellusci
Laura, you helped me so much. I am not new to this hay thing but since moving here to "real" farm country, (and being here a year and still not really knowing a soul) I am second guessing myself. The farmers I am questioning are certainly giving this city girl those looks! The analysis I sent is from a big hay business, but the rest are smaller farmers with hay on the side. One question.....when you "pull samples" do you mean you actually bring your probe? Or just grab handfuIs? I need to seem legitimate to these folks if I'm going to be buying long term. I so appreciate your experience regarding how to deal with them. I will now systematically rifle through my list with focus more on the second cut orchard grass. Between this and my horse taking a downward turn lately (I jinxed him again and mentioned how well he was doing) I am feeling incompetent again, but I get overwhelmed easily lol. Thanks for helping me get my act together :)
-- Donna and Caz
Nov 8, 2016 Chesterfield, NJ https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=3907
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I'm wondering if all the time of day, lack of water does not apply to native grass. Here in the California Foothills once the rains stop late Winter/early Spring the grass dries up, it is 'natural' for these grasses life cycle. It 'springs to life' once the rains start again each year. The roots go down so deep and the grass is so tough it is almost impossible to kill with Roundup or tilling. I had my grass tested a year ago once it was dried up and the s/s was lower than any hay I had found. I do know when it's green, my horses have to be off it though. May be interesting to have it tested while in the green stage.
-- Helen Temps and Chloe June 2017 Placerville, CA https://ecir.groups.io/g/ https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=6929 |
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Sherry Morse
Hi Donna, When you take a sample you need to use a probe, not a handful from the outside of a bale so having a good relationship with your supplier is key. I know a bunch of folks in the Shamong area (a bit further south than you are) so if you need help with hay suppliers I may be able to get some names for you, just let me know. Thanks, Sherry and Scarlet EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scarlet/Scarlet%20Case%20History.doc From: DBellusci via Groups.Io <DBellusci@...> To: main@ECIR.groups.io Sent: Friday, September 21, 2018 9:19 AM Subject: Re: [ECIR] Deciphering hay analsis Laura, you helped me so much. I am not new to this hay thing but since moving here to "real" farm country, (and being here a year and still not really knowing a soul) I am second guessing myself. The farmers I am questioning are certainly giving this city girl those looks! The analysis I sent is from a big hay business, but the rest are smaller farmers with hay on the side. One question.....when you "pull samples" do you mean you actually bring your probe? Or just grab handfuIs? I need to seem legitimate to these folks if I'm going to be buying long term. I so appreciate your experience regarding how to deal with them. I will now systematically rifle through my list with focus more on the second cut orchard grass. Between this and my horse taking a downward turn lately (I jinxed him again and mentioned how well he was doing) I am feeling incompetent again, but I get overwhelmed easily lol. Thanks for helping me get my act together :) -- Donna and Caz Nov 8, 2016
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dbellusci
That is awfully nice of you Sherry. I may be taking you up on that once I get through the folks I am sifting through now. I'm starting out local since I may need to pick it up because my farm is too small for the large trucks. Yes, I always use a probe, 16-20 bales. Just never at a hay dealer's farm. I have heard of people doing handfuls in a pinch, so I asked, but I am too paranoid to do that. Some of these hay dealers offer to "drop off a bale" for me to test, or send me an analysis ahead of time, but then I get the feeling from the conversation that it wasn't done the way I do it. So maybe it doesn't even make sense to ask for the analysis at all. Good to reiterate the proper method so I don't mislead people reading this post.
Helen, that is why I haven't tested my small pasture. It's too much of a moving target. Especially with the crazy weather we had this year, it looks completely different from last year. I really wanted to let them graze a tiny bit, muzzled, but it is so complicated. This grass/hay thing is something I wish I didn't need to know about. I can't even ride my horse without looking down and thinking about what species is underfoot, what it's growth habit is, how the drought is affecting it, how is the cool night we had affecting the sugars, etc. Used to say "hey that field looks so nice and green, let's canter" and that was enough! ;) -- Donna and Caz
Nov 8, 2016 Chesterfield, NJ https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=3907
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gypsylassie
I like that - "that field looks nice for a canter", the good ole carefree days!
I use a probe when possible, but if the hay barn doesn't have electric, I'll reach into the center as far as I can, into a lot of different bales. I always wear long sleeves. I put it into a clean paper grocery sack or clean
bucket. Take it home, mix it all up, then put some in a ziplock to send in. When doing it this way, someone once said to be careful not to "subconsciously" choose what you include in the sample you mail in. It sounds silly, but I did find myself tempted
to not include some of the different grasses.
I also tell the farmer how many bales I'll be needing each year. They like having a reliable, return customer.
I hope Caz is doing ok
Laura K Chappie & Beau over the bridge
N IL 2011
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dbellusci
Hmm, didn’t even think about that caveat. Yes in that case I guess handfuls are better than nothing. I would love to have a steady reliable hay supplier as much as they would love a return customer. I will just have to speak up. I’m better at speaking to animals 😉
Thanks again for your great tips! -- Donna and Caz
Nov 8, 2016 Chesterfield, NJ https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=3907
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msg 226667 RE ADF
When using the AS FED or AS SAMPLED analysis, a good rule of thumb is to use the 8/40/60 rule; only purchase hay that tests 8% or more crude protein (CP), with less than 40% ADF and 60% NDF. That's a general rule - yes, there are horses that will eat hays with 65% NDF, but again, it's the whole picture. Some hays like bermuda are higher in detergent fiber, but are still nutritious. The rule of thumb will get you in the ballpark. The sugars looked ok. IMHO in a pinch you can feed this if they will eat it. I would retest thru Equi-An if buying a significant amount to get the proper results. I think the DM % is usually about 92% so you can "assume" the numbers are actually a bit lower As Fed because it would be diluted by water content 8% or less. You can look at my most recent hay analysis to see that the moisture content was 8.5 %.... and then the resulting differences in numbers -- Eva and Anske October 2017 Corvallis OR Case History Anske 9yo Friesian Mare https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Eva%20and%20Anske |
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Donna,
I bought grass hays for years from Maryland, Northern Maryland and SE PA. My hays of choice were Brome, Brome/Timothy and Orchard grass mixed with either of the first two. Yes, I bought and fed 2nd cutting hays because there was so much less wasted hay. 2nd Cuttings in general are much easier for a horse to eat in the small hole hay nets. Personally my all time favorite is the Brome hay. My horse's really liked it and it had less stem than the other grasses. Timothy is overrated and seems to commonly be priced higher. One neat trick when shopping for hay that you have to sample and test yourself: Take you hay sample correctly and send it to Equi-Analytical and have it tested for ESC and Starch only. (You could add ADF and NDF testing if you want to). When filling out the lab submisssion form be sure to pick "email results" NOT mail (USPS) the results. You will get your results back faster via email. If the ESC/starch results are satisfactory you can then call or email the lab and ask them to run the rest of the 603 Trainer package. The charge for the individual tests will be deducted from the cost of the 603 package if you choose to do the rest of the tests on your hay. Doing the ESC/starch test first may save you money should you have a hay tested that is unsuitable for your horse. A really high ADF/NDF might be a reason for you to turn down a particular hay or an extremely high or low protein level. One last thing, I found that a few farmers who did have their hays tested used Cumberland Lab but for us horse owners using Equi-Analytical gives you the the tests you need without all the extra tests specific to bovines. I also looked at pricing thinking I could use Cumberland and just choose specific tests and it actually would have cost me more than the Equi-Analytical 603 package. -- Bonnie Snodgrass 07-2016 ECIR Primary Response White Cloud, Michigan, USA |
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dbellusci
Yes Eva, I figured the ADF and NDF were a little high since I was trying to avoid the loose poop coming back. And thank you for answering about the DM%--I had looked back at some of my old Equi-Analytical sheets and planned to "guess" also but wasn't sure.
Bonnie, I don't know if I've ever gotten Brome before (maybe in my mixed grass) but I probably would have been posting about that one next! I'm not impressed with the Timothy at all either so hopefully branching out into some of these other mixes will work. The end of my crummy present hay is brown soft stuff with no stems, no idea what it is (was supposed to be 1st cut) but I have to feed it throughout the day because it is so soft it goes through my nets too fast. So going to need new nets I guess. Your way of testing is perfect.... I'm definitely going to do that! I never heard of Cumberland until now. Good to know they are not cheaper. You guys are the best:) Now that I am finally not sick as a dog and can get out to go see the hay appointments, I just need them to return my calls....grrrr -- Donna and Caz
Nov 8, 2016 Chesterfield, NJ https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=3907
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