Sadie's trim...Jaini, Dr. Kellon, Others please comment on this if you can. This is where the disagreement is.


 

This is the comment from trimmer on yesterday's trim:

"So I've been thinking about Sadie's feet and people looking at the x-rays then advising the toe be brought back.  I think it's deceptive and the hoof is going through a phase of looking worse because the  new growth is tighter.  But looking at the hoof itself the toe is backed as far as it can be without risking making Sadie sore.  There is no hoof wall at the toe.  IMO this is a critical phase to get through and not let the outline of the foot be deceptive and trick a person into changing the trim.  The fact that the new growth is tight tells us the trim is working.  My first reaction looking at the hoof and the x-rays is the same - the toe should come back. Then I really look at the foot.  This is truly an ugly stage but it won't last. 

Forgive me, just thinking out loud.  If the same hoof profile presented with a stretched white line at the toe, taking the toe back would be appropriate.  In Sadie's case, the sole is forward and the white line at the toe is tight to the sole, so taking the toe back is not appropriate."

I will try and get new pics posted today and would really like markups as to how and where to back up toes in your opinion.  Sadie seems worse today after yesterday and I am afraid that she will slipper further if the toe is not brought back.  My gut instinct is to at least rasp from the topside to get rid of that lamellar wedge on the bottom portion of the foot so the toe is not so much out in front.  Scared to try without markups but I've done this before.  Thanks.
--
June
Oregon, USA
Oct 2012
Case Histories for Sadie and Chip
Sadie's Photos 
Chip's Photos 
Ω


 

Wouldn’t the growth at the top represent the most current dietary changes rather than the trim?

 

 

 


--
Ellen
Pal & Savvy
N. Alabama
Aug 2013
Case History 


 

Thanks for the update, June. I am very sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree with what your trimmer said. The rads clearly show a too long toe. The sole pictures clearly show sole growing over top of the white line, which is why you can't see any white line at the toe. 

--
Jaini Clougher (BSc, BVSc)
Merlin (over the bridge), Maggie, Gypsy, Ranger
BC 09
ECIR mod/support  https://bit.ly/2MlAtPd  

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193.
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=39711


Nancy C
 

Hi June

I'm with Jaini (and Dr Kellon and Lavina). Returning the foot to physiologically correct form will help reduce pain even with ongoing laminitis.

You can gauge that this is true by monitoring your  pulses during trim. Log what the pulse are prior to trimming.  Not only the pace but the strength.  Give strength a 1 to ten assessment.  Log the pulse like you would with any heart or blood pressure monitoring.  IMPORTANT: Any one can learn how to do this.

*IF* your trim is better for her, if it returning to physiological function, immediately after you put the foot down, the pulse should decrease.  Not only in rate but in strength.

This will coincide with reduction of pain.

You can do this even...EVEN... when the horse is actively laminitic. It is especially important when the horse is actively laminitic. You need to return not only the vascular function to where it can best be, but  the neurological function as well. 
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

 


Nancy C
 
Edited

Hi Ellen

Based on my experience, it could be both.  Or either.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

 


 

 thanks Jaini,  so can you or someone mark-up that area so I could see what you guys are talking about? I am actually in agreement with you but if I can't find someone to help me on this, I may have to do it myself but I need markers. I also got new pictures after trim and I will be posting those tonight.  Thank you
--
June
Oregon, USA
Oct 2012
Case Histories for Sadie and Chip
Sadie's Photos 
Chip's Photos 
Ω


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

June,

Since you already have films scheduled for Monday I'd wait to do the feet until after that. They can be directly compared to the March films to show the trim is not doing its job.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

June,

Please make sure the marker on the hoof wall goes all the way up to the coronary band and have some thumb tacks on hand to mark the tip of the frog. Very important!
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


 

Okay, will do.  Thanks 
--
June
Oregon, USA
Oct 2012
Case Histories for Sadie and Chip
Sadie's Photos 
Chip's Photos 
Ω


 

While I am certainly no expert on hoof trims, it appears that your horse has contracted heels and heels that are too long. From the coronet to the ground, the toe angle is too far forward.

May I suggest you buy/rent Pete Ramey's DVD series called "Under the hoof." It is excellent, His teaching is clear and the work he is doing is filmed so that we can see what he is doing. There are horses with this very problem that he treats. Once you see it, it's easy to spot these situations. There is a site that rents horse DVD's. The set to buy is a bit pricey, but well worth it if you can swing the investment.

Again, this is just my 2 cents' worth. Look into it and see what you think. In fact, google Pete Ramey. He has a site with lots of info.

Denise


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

June,

Check out this link for getting rads done:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/Getting-Good-X-rays

--
Lavinia and George Too
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
ECIR Support Team


 

 hi Denise, I am aware of Pete Ramey and actually my trimmer is a Pete Ramey follower and trims according to his protocol supposedly. I do have the DVD series but have not watched all of it and some of it is beyond my understanding.   my trimmer continues to believe that she is trimming according to Pete Ramey's protocol so I don't know what else I can do about that part of it.
--
June
Oregon, USA
Oct 2012
Case Histories for Sadie and Chip
Sadie's Photos 
Chip's Photos 
Ω


 

Hi, June. I am sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but it is time for a new trimmer. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and the feet are not only not improving, they are getting worse with each trim.
--
Jaini Clougher (BSc, BVSc)
Merlin (over the bridge), Maggie, Gypsy, Ranger
BC 09
ECIR mod/support  https://bit.ly/2MlAtPd  

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193.
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=39711


 

That is my problem Jaini...I can't seem to find anyone else who are any better than the ones I have.  I would be willing to haul within reason as long as Sadie can tolerate it...or even fly someone here to at least help me out one time so that I can get her stabilized.  I seem to have hit a wall and I am so afraid that I will have to put Sadie down because she is getting worse..she can barely move.  I am devastated.  At the very least, I need markups ASAP after the trim Monday if I am to do it myself with very very detailed elementary explanation as to what to do as I honestly don't think we can hang in there much longer.  The pain is not abating at all.

Can anyone help me on this forum...I don't want to beg but I am willing to pay handsomely as this is a last ditch effort to save Sadie and I am so overcome with grief about this.



--
June
Oregon, USA
Oct 2012
Case Histories for Sadie and Chip
Sadie's Photos 
Chip's Photos 
Ω


Nancy C
 

JUne

Try contacting the PHCP folks.   http://pacifichoofcare.net/

Or, find a brandy-new trimmer who will listen to the recommendations here.

I know we need to see the rads, however, Minis can come back from this in a remarkable way.  In most cases it won't take much.  Just the right trim.


--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

 


 

Where in Oregon?  I  have a trimmer in California who might be willing to help if you can afford to fly him in.  Or send him on the train and his wife on the train, if it is cheaper.  He would likely fly out of Sacramento or SFO..

--
Gail Russell 8/30/2008

 

 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Gail%20and%20Brother%20-%20Odin%20-%20Decaffe%20%20-Gunthar .


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

June,

I agree totally with what Jaini and Dr. Kellon have said. You are miles ahead of your current professional in terms of being able to see what needs to be done. If you are willing, you can certainly do the job.

I can get you mark-ups, just haven't been available this week as I've been on the road and am now trying to catch up with this thread. Sadie's trim is definitely part of the problem and she should feel a lot better as soon as it is addressed.

--
Lavinia and George Too
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
ECIR Support Team


 

Hi Nancy, I am aware of the PHCP folks.  Some of my contacts are from that group and I believe I have exhausted every other possible person.  Thanks
--
June
Oregon, USA
Oct 2012
Case Histories for Sadie and Chip
Sadie's Photos 
Chip's Photos 
Ω


 

Thanks Gail.  I live in Leaburg, OR, which is about 1/2 hour east of Springfield, OR, up the McKenzie Valley.  I now have a possible trimmer or two north of me in the Portland area that I am investigating right now.  As soon as the xrays are done on Monday, I want to proceed with markups...I hope the Nov 1st pics will suffice....so that I can either attempt to do it myself...or at least partially....until a new trimmer can come.  I talked with this one trimmer who can come next Friday on her day off.  I have sent her the Nov pics and am planning on sending her xrays.  Thank you everyone for helping me out here with suggestions and real possibilities.  It gives me more hope to hang in there.
--
June
Oregon, USA
Oct 2012
Case Histories for Sadie and Chip
Sadie's Photos 
Chip's Photos 
Ω


gypsylassie
 

Hi June, I don't know if this will help, but do you have any horse friends who could recommend a good farrier who they have shoe their horses?  The guy who does my boys is a traditional shoer who is willing to trim according to both my vets' instructions, which initially, when Chappie foundered, was to "chop the toes off".  Backing the toe in Ecir terms.  
If you can't find a good barefoot trimmer, there might be a good farrier in your area who might be the answer.  
Laura K Chappie & Beau
N IL 2011


On Nov 3, 2018, at 5:45 PM, June Nishi <tjnishi6@...> wrote:

That is my problem Jaini...I can't seem to find anyone else who are any better than the ones I have.  I would be willing to haul within reason as long as Sadie can tolerate it...or even fly someone here to at least help me out one time so that I can get her stabilized.  I seem to have hit a wall and I am so afraid that I will have to put Sadie down because she is getting worse..she can barely move.  I am devastated.  At the very least, I need markups ASAP after the trim Monday if I am to do it myself with very very detailed elementary explanation as to what to do as I honestly don't think we can hang in there much longer.  The pain is not abating at all.

Can anyone help me on this forum...I don't want to beg but I am willing to pay handsomely as this is a last ditch effort to save Sadie and I am so overcome with grief about this.



--
June
Oregon, USA
Oct 2012
Case Histories for Sadie and Chip
Sadie's Photos 
Chip's Photos 
Ω