Micky sheared heels


Kath Chase
 


-Hi Lavinia,

Needing your advice for next trim please, Micky in boots and thick pads  both fronts ,  we have had abscessing in both fronts, 
Kath Chase & Micky
Yinnar Vic Australia
July 2017
Micky's Case History
Micky's Photos


Nancy C
 

Hi Kath

You may know Lavinia has been on sabbatical.  In order to give you relevant input we're going to need a better photo.

Sorry.....
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

 


Kath Chase
 

Thanks for getting back to me Nancy, apologies for not being clearer in my 1st message it’s the Right front pics dated 16.02.2019 that I’m needing Lavinia to look at  for next trim just want to know if the heel can be lowered next trim if so how much. Thinking this may take pressure off the P3.-- if I haven’t got Heel picture correct can you explain to me how to improve. Many thanks Kath Chase 
Kath Chase & Micky
Yinnar Vic Australia
July 2017
Micky's Case History
Micky's Photos


Nancy C
 

Thank Kath

Still not clear to me.  This photo?  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/photo/9614/4?p=pcreated,,,50,2,0,0

If not can you please supply a link? 

Thanks again.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

 


Nancy C
 
Edited

Hi Kath...OK.  I found it. Sorry for the confusion. I edited this message to add my comments.

I personally do not have experience with correcting sheared heels and just have begun expanding my knowledge through understanding Dr Bowker and his work in this area. ( See his 2017 lecture on vascular cushion of the frog.) As I said Lavinia has been on sabbatical, but she may respond.

That said, I agree with your suggestion that it has been too long between trims. If you go back to summer 2018 it appears you have gained a lot of toe.  It also appears to my lay person eye that there was no sheared heel then.  I admit I have not gone through all the of the photos.

I would be working to get his feet to look more like they did then.  It will take frequent small trims --  every two or three days -- to help you determine how he is re-adjusting to his more compact feet. Testing his tolerance to heel work can be done via stretching his leg and shoulder and checking his fetlock tendons.  Put his foot in your lap. Can you massage them easily compared to the other foot or your other horses? Also how does he load after you trim.  (You probably know this.)

New rads to determine where you are now would be really helpful.

Long toe and under run heels contributes heavily to poor caudal (heel) health. 

Hope this helps.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

 


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Kath,

From what I can see, the toes are miles too long ahead of where they need to be. This was evident in the rads done in Nov 2018 and appears to only have gotten worse. There doesn't appear to be any excess heel height to remove as the HPA's are already compromised. The medial wall on the RF, which has been structurally compromised for a long time, has been allowed to flare quite a bit again, so you are losing any support there that it should be providing. Sole depth is likely compromised as well.

Back up the toes, leave the soles and heels alone for now. Keep him in boots and pads as that seems to be the arrangement Micky does the best in over time.

--
Lavinia and George Too
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
ECIR Support Team


Kath Chase
 


-- Have just messaged Farrier to come ASAP to back up toes Lavinia, could you mark up the Photos please please not wanting to get it wrong.

Mickys  last trims on both fronts were done 31 January 2019. The sole trimming  from trimmer no 5  I think that’s where it kept going wrong with ongoing soreness  issues as trims were pretty damn good, medial Lateral balance was so much improved then   but continued to get growth lines ripples down that medial side even though the flaring was way better then . If you look at pic with shoe , rim pad and vettec packing pour in Extra soft.   RF medial side done on 27 January  2019 the growth lines are no where near as bad as what was medial side  whether this is because the abscesses are out  unsure  but the heels are terrible ever since abscesses and .formahoof.farrier vet no. 6 just wanted to keep letting the feet grow and not trim, Farrier no. 7 is very willing to do what’s best for Micky fingers crossed we get it right this time.  

I’d just like thank you  all so much, I deserved to really get very harsh comments for not making the right choices  for Micky, but I have truly tried my heart out for him  I let my partner, vet and Farrier no.6 rail road me (it was three against one) I told them all formahoof wouldn’t work  and they wouldn’t listen have  been at breaking point   Beating my self up over the wrong choices made, Long term damage is done, since oct 2016 all I can do now is keep him comfortable as possible now. positives we have no pulses going in fronts, he is eating incrediably well, walking around turned  out, Ears fwd,  shiny coat, no goopy eyes, but the BRUISING  , I have tears running down my face writing this and looking at his feet.  Nancy will download the 2017 conference proceedings the more I know the more I can try. I have done leg stretches regularly with Micky over the past 12 months when he is comfortable enough to do it, he always has trouble stretching out the Right fore. He always gets massaged down the legs before I pick up the fronts. Makes it easier for him. So Lavinia bruising medial side pedal bone  RF this was there after shoe came off on 31 January 2019.  Wasn’t there before shoe went on it was a very hot day that day wit was 43 degrees here, Farrier said vettec pour in heats up, could that bring out bruising, or toes too long RF. Or not enough packing there was shocktamer pad on also. Farrier  7 and  current orthopedic vet say the boots aren’t good on his joints in his legs that The boots are causing him further problems in his legs , but Farrier no.7 is happy to do what I say so if it’s safe to keep in boots will do so. Appreciate comments here thanks again 

Kath Chase & Micky
Yinnar Vic Australia
July 2017
Micky's Case History
Micky's Photos


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Kath,

I need a clear sole shot of each foot (all four). Also need a lateral of LF and both hinds: please take it while Micky is standing as squarely as possible and include some of the cannon bone (the RF that is already in the album is perfect so use that as an example of what is needed). Please let me know when they are up.

This isn't an easy, straight forward situation - hasn't been from the start. I think it might be that the soft packing while the shoes were on was helping support that entire damaged, medial side so that it was able to start to grow in as a much stronger structure but then the multiple abscesses blowing out again weakened the medial wall so that it collapsed once more. Letting the toes get away from you was a negative that added more stresses.

Beating yourself up won't help and won't change the past so please stop. Look to learning from both the things that did work AND the things that didn't work so you and Micky can move forward from here. You can do this for your boy's sake.

--
Lavinia and George Too
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
ECIR Support Team


Nancy C
 

Hi Kath. 

Beating yourself up up is not allowed. You will hear often “You do the best you can with the info available.” I know how crushing it can be when a light bulb goes off and an understanding of a potential new opens up. Don’t let it get you. Your horse knows you are trying. Give Micky  a hug and get your strong face back on. You can do this. Hang in there. 
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

 


Kath Chase
 

I will do this for Micky Lavinia,  I’ve got to get it together stop crying, I will do it for my boy.

My biggest problem has always been getting him to hold his feet up ever since  October 2016. Can only pick them up for short periods. Even all the farriers and trimmers have had to give him breaks in between.  Bute has been used for shoeing purposes and sedative was given when formahoof was applied.  The hinds are incredibably difficult even the trimmers and farriers have had problems lifting the hinds more so right hind can only pull it fwd to trim as he can’t pick it up normally.

Will do my very best to get good clear photos and will get them through to you ASAP. Micky was always pigeon toed when I bought him back in 2004.  But movement was straight. Didn’t have lameness issues, but was always kept in shoes as previous owner said he he needs to be kept in shoes,  he always had yucky eyes on and off since 2004 also Every  Farrier since 2004  has said during that time that his feet have never been good. Micky always had regular shoeing done every 6 weeks until the crisis October 2016.

Is interesting since hinds have been under Farrier no.6 and Farrier no.7 we haven’t had the weird movement from behind  and the shifting weight in the hinds has stopped also in past  2 months  and also doesn’t point RF Ike what he used to do frequently.  Just trying to give as much info as possible to help Micky. 

The only thing i cant do, is get Rads :-( I’ve just bought new native grass  hay, and big bag mineral pellets  from same supplier  these have no iron in them the best I can find to give him the best nutrition for his  medial side approx 25% bone  loss, I need to update case history with new hay test also 
Thanks again 

--
Kath Chase & Micky
Yinnar Vic Australia
July 2017
Micky's Case History
Micky's Photos


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Not shifting his weight behind tells you his fronts have been more comfortable - he hasn't been shifting as much weight to the backs to try to get it off his more painful fronts. One thing about the shoes/pads/no trims for extended periods that was positive is that it allowed his soles to add some depth.

If you can't pick up a foot to trim, it can be trimmed by having him stand on a 2x4 with various parts of the foot overhanging the edge of the wood. Or stand the foot on a thick piece of styrofoam and trim right thru the foam. You can also stand him on a thick pile of bedding or in sand, then scrape away around the perimeter of the foot to access it for trimming. This all means that the hoof pro needs to get on the ground to work - not necessarily the most comfortable position for the pro but it gets the job done and makes the horse more comfortable and cooperative. Giving a dose of bute the night before and again the morning of a trim is perfectly acceptable when needed for temporary comfort.

To get sole shots when the horse isn't able to lift a foot for long - see if you can get him to just tilt the foot forward, cocking it on the toe. You can see the sole that way and possibly get the picture. A bit of a contortionist act for you but again - think outside the box and work with whatever the horse is able to give you.

Hang in there.

--
Lavinia and George Too
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
ECIR Support Team


Kath Chase
 

Thank you for the kind words yous guys a wonderful. I have Farrier no.. 7 coming this friday. to trim Micky. Just trying to get good photos for Lavinia, my partner took alot. last night but he got here too late. To get really clear shots  Have downloaded guide to show him Today. We. Will. Try and get more. Micky is so good,  he tries so hard. Have put one in albulm CH it’s dated 2018-02-19 RF sole is it ok for Lavinia to mark up? Have also emailed. Her several others  same date.

I so need new Rads, desperately but. Can’t affford them now, I  was looking at previous Rads. Last night this one has yellow circle. Spiky bit at front. of P3 it was taken when Micky was in formahoof. Micky always went. Really lame if toe,, was trimmed excessively. I remember trimmer no. 5 telling me off for not hand walking him but he was. Lame as, this was when he was having 2 weekly trims, he would start to come really good and then lame again next trim, Icouldnt understand why this was happening. Lavinia thought sole being trimmed by triimmer  no.5.. the xray pic is in album with yellow circle it’s a dorsal X-ray front view. Dated.  2018-09-22 There may be something you might. See. Thanks again 
--
Kath Chase & Micky
Yinnar Vic Australia
July 2017
Micky's Case History
Micky's Photos


Kath Chase
 

i agree Lavinia it has been wonderful seeing Micky  not shifting weight from behind, but that said i do recall he did shift weight on hinds on 21 december, 2018, i messgaed farrier no.7 he came on the 23 december 2018  and pulled the LF Heartbar shoe to find infection in that foot, The packing was taken out and the foot was treated still trying to work out what that is on the foot whether its still bruising or ongoing infection id appreciate your imput here,  but has been fantastic seeing him not pointing the RF like he used to. 

Your  exactly right its not straight fwd with Micky and never has been as you said, One thing i,m positive about farrier no.7 says we need to listen to what he show us and its about whats finding the right thing that suits him. i have put more photos aup that i took today and last night dated 2019.02.19 taken last night some shockers thats for sure. Today I took the photos myself but still not great these are up dated 2019.02.20 Farrier no 7 is coming this friday 22nd Feb, The marks ups don"t worry too much about the hinds Farrier will probably just give them a rasp. The fronts well just do the best you can, the phots arent great but give you an idea i think backing up the toe will make him more comfortable but the bruising and possible ongoing infection im not sure what im dealing with here and not being able to afford rads when i really need them is really frustrating me.

interesting was going back on hinds in case history they were alot shorter then, i remember trimmer was trying to correct NPA back then  so am unsure that was when micky was shifting weight and walking really werid behind and to me looked like there wasnt much sole depth there, appreciate your thoughts when you have time, his RH is a nightmare just cant lift that foot he plants it in poo all day like the poos a wedge under his hind foot. I try to pick it out if can get him to rest it thats the only why i can do it other than blasting it with hose and putting it in a tub to clean that one is a nightmare.

i told orthopedic vet,in september 2018 about not being able to lift RH  he was adamant there were no issues in his hinds it was coming from fronts being age 23 he probably does have some arthirtis happening possibly in hocks am unsure. The orthopedic vet also was adamant that the boots are causing micky further problems with his joints in his legs. I dont know what to believe. I did notice there are measurements in the DP rad RF one side of the coffin bone JOINT measures 3mm and the other side measures 5mm so looked like its out medially laterally that was i think last  september they were done

MY  worst nightmare happened today, after I had finished photos i came inside to edit, I had micky in laneway in his boots and had misplaced ductape couldnt find it, went out to find him doing the weirdest trot  up the laneway like he was trotting on egg shells  on the hard peagravel (not enough down) and also the rain hardens it with the sand. so damage has proabably been done further on both fronts today he got both sets of boots off whether he chewed the velcro and undid them i do not know but i ll never make that mistake again i should have vet wrapped them on when i couldnt find the duct tape. Another abscess might blow maybe Im starting to get worried about all the abscessing and why over the past 6 months they should've all come out december 2016 january 2016 after the crisis despite repeated cleantraxing, polticing animal lintex epsom salts, sugardine nothing came out of those feet. incredibly frustrating these havent come out earlier. Given Mickys pedal Bone loss, no abscesses showed in rads, we did find one that we thought may have been feb 2017 but i polticed then too and still nothing come out of that foot. then trimmer no.5 cut out the old abscess pockets that never vented and that made it worse. Im having a rant. Letting it out . Will put up more pics tomorrow ive missed LH dorsal  and LF dorsal i think today  or hoping Lavinia can maybe use pics that are there maybe , also big thank you for the advise with cocking the RH on the toe it worked but only for short period of time i hosed the foot picked out what  i could but then when i took the photo, it still had poo in there damn  I cant lift that foot so will get farrier to hold foot on friday then i can get a clear shot of it for you lavinia let me know if you need better pics this isnt easy.


Thanks again for all your support


--
Kath Chase & Micky
Yinnar Vic Australia
July 2017
Micky's Case History
Micky's Photos


Kath Chase
 

All pics for markups are up. Sigh of relief  I hope they are ok fingers crossed Farrrier coming Friday 22 February.Tthanks again 
--
Kath Chase & Micky
Yinnar Vic Australia
July 2017
Micky's Case History
Micky's Photos


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Thanks Kath.

Will get to it tomorrow so you have it for Fri.

--
Lavinia and George Too
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
ECIR Support Team


Kath Chase
 

Oh no our date and time here in aus is Thursday 21  feb it’s 12.17 lunchtime here, understand if you can’t get the marks ups  done in time Lavinia , Farrier no. 7 said tomorrow unsure what time I’ll get a text tonight with time,  I didn’t read Nancys message properly it’s been so long since I’ve been on ECIR i haven’t heard of sabbatical assuming it’s a new project your working on and very busy, so sorry I appreciate you just getting back to me you must be crazy busy. 

Micky has pulses going today in three feet, to be expected after the boots came off yesterday damn damn damn, probably more damage and bruising I think it would have been approx 15 - 20 mins I was inside,  and he was moving on quite hard ground. Sand and peagravel was compacted where he was, the Velcro isn’t great on boots  he’s pulled him off both fronts . The duct tape is a necessity to keep them on.  Thanks again 
--
Kath Chase & Micky
Yinnar Vic Australia
July 2017
Micky's Case History
Micky's Photos


Kath Chase
 

Continued on from last message Lavinia, Farrier no. 7 just texted and said he will be here to do Micky at 11.30am tomorrow. Appreciate the mark ups if you can possibly do it, but if you can’t I totally understand. 
--
Kath Chase & Micky
Yinnar Vic Australia
July 2017
Micky's Case History
Micky's Photos


Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Kath,

Please check your inbox.

--
Lavinia and George Too
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
ECIR Support Team


Kath Chase
 

Huge Thank you to you and Nancy you Rock , I didn’t expect those markups done  in time as I was late getting them to you. Big hugs from. Micky.

Micky had all 4 trimmed today, I have some photos that I can upload but they aren’t super can get more tomorrow. But will give you some idea, it will probably take a few regular trims over the next 3 weeks to tryand get him back on track.  Farrier no.7 Said he is happy to do what makes Micky most comfortable. He said he can comeback next week and do more,  if there wasn’t enough taken , I’m not sure if there has  been enough taken off toe see black line on RF sole pic taken 2018-02-22. 

Mickys pulses have settled another small bruise around edge of medial sole I saw in today’s photo.  

Still eating well so thats positive and having reular turnout. I did notice he was walking. Bit weird from behind after trim today also. 

The yellow on the foot is betadine, I have 2 bottles of white lightning if I need it, and new rubber for pads it density is more cushioned bit softer but may also wear down too thin, will try and shape pad as you said  Lavinia. Micky seams to be doing it by himself his wearing the lateral side pad down to take weight off medial side  last few days again  same thing as  done before many times.  Could be another abscess maybe. I hope not. they are cruel but better out than in. Part of the healing process.

Many thanks will will keep you posted 
--
Kath Chase & Micky
Yinnar Vic Australia
July 2017
Micky's Case History
Micky's Photos